When does the rapture occur?

[Jayoish]

Youstated:
Wow.Maybe you have never seen these verses?
16 For the Lord himself shall descendfrom heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpof God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remainshall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in theair: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Yes, I have but where in those scriptures it staterapture. You asking me this question tell me about your understanding ofthe bible. Well, let's talk about....Rapture….christianitya mystical experience in which somebody believes he or she is transported intothe spiritual realm, sometimes applied to the second coming of Jesus Christ,when true believers are expected to rise up to join him in heaven.(EncartaDictionary definition). Christians believe to be rapture off toheaven, right before the tribulation. Well one of the many problems with this false perception, establishedfrom the above scriptures given, is your lack to read the entire bible’sinformation on end times. Maybe youwouldn’t show your ignorance. You people are partial reading and posting Christians. Firstof all, I will post the entire scripture which if you had, you wouldn’t beshowing how insufficient you are!
I Thessalonians 4:13-17:[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to beignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, evenas others which have no hope.[SUP]14[/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died androse again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the wordof the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of theLord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descendfrom heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpof God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive andremain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord inthe air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When you read the entire passage, you realize this isabout the coming of the LORD, his return, which happens after the tribulation,not before…which is what Sunday Christians teach he will do. If you in doubt, then there are Bibles thathas sub-heading title in each chapter to tell you what each chapter details…buyone and read it. Now this passage is explaining what will happen when Jesusreturn and gather his saints. It provesthe poplar Sunday Christians believe of their dead ones being in heaven, to befalse. Because this is where he raisethe dead who died in Christ first and those not dead will be changed to incorruptiblebody and they will all ascend in the air to meet Christ who descend. It is even explained in Matthew. Matthew 24: 20-33:[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation ofthose days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall beshaken:[SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of theSon of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, andthey shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power andgreat glory.[SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with agreat sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from thefour winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[SUP]32[/SUP] Now learn a parable of the fig tree;When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer isnigh:[SUP]33[/SUP] So likewise ye, when ye shall see allthese things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
As for thisscripture: 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and theythat were ready went in with him to the marriage: andthe door was shut.
Wrong again, this parable is about the coming of theLORD,again, and the rapture is told to happen before the tribulation and he won’treturn until after tribulation: Reference back to Matthew 24:29-30, previouslyposted. Let read the entire passage to prove. Matthew 25: 1-13:[SUP]1[/SUP] Then shall the kingdom of heaven belikened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet thebridegroom.[SUP]2[/SUP] And five of them were wise, and five werefoolish.[SUP]3[/SUP] They that were foolish tooktheir lamps, and took no oil with them:[SUP]4[/SUP] But the wise took oil in theirvessels with their lamps.[SUP]5[/SUP] While the bridegroom tarried, theyall slumbered and slept.[SUP]6[/SUP] And at midnight there was a cry made,Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.[SUP]7[/SUP] Then all those virgins arose, andtrimmed their lamps.[SUP]8[/SUP] And the foolish said unto the wise,Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.[SUP]9[/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, Notso; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them thatsell, and buy for yourselves.[SUP]10[/SUP] Andwhile they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went inwith him to the marriage: and the door was shut.[SUP]11[/SUP] Afterward came also the othervirgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.[SUP]12[/SUP] But he answered and said, Verily Isay unto you, I know you not.[SUP]13[/SUP] Watch therefore, for ye know neitherthe day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
And you stated: 40 Then shalltwo be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and theother left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch thethief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his houseto be broken up
But let’s again post the entire passage of this portion: [SUP]36[/SUP] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angelsof heaven, but my Father only.[SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also thecoming of the Son of man be.[SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were beforethe flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, untilthe day that Noe entered into the ark,[SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came,and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[SUP]40[/SUP] Then shall two be in the field; theone shall be taken, and the other left.[SUP]41[/SUP] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; theone shall be taken, and the other left.[SUP]42[/SUP] Watch therefore: for ye know not whathour your Lord doth come.[SUP]43[/SUP] But know this, that if the goodman ofthe house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched,and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.[SUP]44[/SUP] Therefore be ye also ready: for insuch an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.[SUP]45[/SUP] Who then is a faithful and wiseservant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat indue season?[SUP]46[/SUP] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when hecometh shall find so doing.
It again, doesn’t apply to the rapture, it is talkingabout the coming of the LORD and it say so in the actual passage! And as far astwo being somewhere and one will be taken and the other will be left. Well, the Matthew 24:20-33 passage:[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation ofthose days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall beshaken:[SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of theSon of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, andthey shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power andgreat glory.[SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with agreat sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from thefour winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
He is gathering his elect, not everyone is his elect, so therewill be some left.
You also stated: 44 Thereforebe ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
This scripture I don’t have to respond or post the entirepassage because we both know it is about the coming of Christ, not rapturebefore Christ. Also, you can go to John 6:39-40, to prove that it is at Jesuscoming that he will raise up his people. [SUP]39[/SUP] And this is the Father's will whichhath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but shouldraise it up again at the last day.[SUP]40[/SUP] And this is the will of him that sentme, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlastinglife: and I will raise him up at the last day.In response to this person’s statement and your responseto it:GODtells us to flee, not that he will rapture you away... He has a place of safetyfor his people. However you must know when to flee. Uh, nohe did not. He told jews in jerusalem.You are way off. This person iscorrect. There is no rapture, GOD dotell us to flee and he has prepared a place of safety for us. You can find this in Revelation 12:1-6: [SUP]1[/SUP] And there appeared a great wonder inheaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon herhead a crown of twelve stars:[SUP]2[/SUP] And she being with child cried,travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.[SUP]3[/SUP] And there appeared another wonder inheaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, andseven crowns upon his heads.[SUP]4[/SUP] And his tail drew the third part ofthe stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stoodbefore the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child assoon as it was born.[SUP]5[/SUP] And she brought forth a man child,who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught upunto God, and tohis throne.[SUP]6[/SUP] And the woman fled into thewilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed herthere a thousand two hundred andthreescore days.
You are way off, not that person: Ifyou did not know, all other nation has to follow suit of what you call, theJEWS….which confirms to me that you really do not know your bible. The Jews are not the only people of GOD, therewere 12 tribes of Israel. Judah – the Jews were just one! As the bible statesin Roman 10:9-13:[SUP]9[/SUP] That if thou shalt confess with thymouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised himfrom the dead, thou shalt be saved. [SUP]10[/SUP]For with the heart man believeth untorighteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[SUP]11[/SUP] For the scripture saith, Whosoeverbelieveth on him shall not be ashamed.[SUP]12[/SUP]For there is no difference betweenthe Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that callupon him.[SUP]13[/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon thename of the Lord shall be saved.

Jayoish

 

[popeye]

I'm on my honeymoon so that's not going to work, LOL.

Remove the Groom/Bride context??? Not so my dear friend. I am showing you that the pair are not pristine but rather bare the scars of their work on earth.

GROOM:

John 20:27

Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

BRIDE:

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;

You kinda made my point for me. You go outside the bride/groom verses to make a slanted picture to muddy up what is depicted by the word in an ACTUAL STUDY ON THE SUBJECT.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi Plainword,

Those mentioned above are never referred to as the church/bride, but are the great tribulation saints. If you'll notice, from Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word Ekklesia translated church is used over and over again within those chapters, but you will never see the word Hagios translated as saints anywhere in those first three chapters. Likewise, starting from Rev.4 onward, the word Ekklesia is never listed, but only the word Hagios/Saints is found and is used throughout the entire narrative. The church is never mentioned in regards to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God. Those mentioned above is that group in Rev.7 who are wearing white ropes which no man can count. These are the great tribulation saints (GTS), those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been removed. These GTS are the same group who are seen being resurrected in Rev.20:4

The Bridegroom is the Lord Jesus and the Church is his Bride

Your argument is pure conjecture. The 7 Churches to which John writes are contemporary to him, all located in Asia Minor (Modern day Turkey). These churches (in the days of John's writing circa AD 95-96) were suffering enormous tribulation (persecution) for their faith. They were also being attacked by false doctrine from within.

John's message to these churches (via the angel or messenger to each) was to comfort, encourage and to correct some of them. In each case at the end of each separate message to each church the phrase, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." This tells us that the messages are not just for those specific 7 churches but also for those who "(have) an ear, (to hear)."

At the end of Revelation 3, John is done addressing the 7 churches specifically and now turns his attention to the prophetic things that he is being shown. Thus the 7 churches and any individual or collective church is no longer the topic thus they are no longer being discussed after Chapter 3. At this point, the start of Chapter 4, John is taken in spirit to heaven and told this: “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Thus everything John is shown "must take place after this (AD 95-96)." Bottom line is there is absolutely no passage anywhere in the Bible that discusses a Pre-Trib or any other Rapture specifically reserved for the Church as a collective unit. The "Rapture" based on all contexts is located on the last day and is associated with the Resurrection. There is no teaching of multi parts to the rapture/resurrection.

Rev 7 shows the absolute obliteration of most saints during the Great Tribulation, hence the term "Great Tribulation." The reason the Tribulation is "GREAT" is because believers are being persecuted and killed in numbers never seen before. Study the use of the word, "Tribulation" and you will find that in 97% of the time it refers to the wicked persecuting the righteous.

The Book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Nowhere prior to the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are we told Jesus returns to "Rapture" the Church. Further, nowhere in the Olivet Discourse of Mat 24, Mrk 13 does Jesus discuss an earlier Pre-trib Rapture return. He only discusses a post Trib, Wrath return.

 

[popeye]

Your argument is pure conjecture. The 7 Churches to which John writes are contemporary to him, all located in Asia Minor (Modern day Turkey). These churches (in the days of John's writing circa AD 95-96) were suffering enormous tribulation (persecution) for their faith. They were also being attacked by false doctrine from within.

John's message to these churches (via the angel or messenger to each) was to comfort, encourage and to correct some of them. In each case at the end of each separate message to each church the phrase, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." This tells us that the messages are not just for those specific 7 churches but also for those who "(have) an ear, (to hear)."

At the end of Revelation 3, John is done addressing the 7 churches specifically and now turns his attention to the prophetic things that he is being shown. Thus the 7 churches and any individual or collective church is no longer the topic thus they are no longer being discussed after Chapter 3. At this point, the start of Chapter 4, John is taken in spirit to heaven and told this:“Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Thus everything John is shown "must take place after this (AD 95-96)." Bottom line is there is absolutely no passage anywhere in the Bible that discusses a Pre-Trib or any other Rapture specifically reserved for the Church as a collective unit. The "Rapture" based on all contexts is located on the last day and is associated with the Resurrection. There is no teaching of multi parts to the rapture/resurrection.

Rev 7 shows the absolute obliteration of most saints during the Great Tribulation, hence the term "Great Tribulation." The reason the Tribulation is "GREAT" is because believers are being persecuted and killed in numbers never seen before. Study the use of the word, "Tribulation" and you will find that in 97% of the time it refers to the wicked persecuting the righteous.

The Book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Nowhere prior to the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are we told Jesus returns to "Rapture" the Church. Further, nowhere in the Olivet Discourse of Mat 24, Mrk 13 does Jesus discuss an earlier Pre-trib Rapture return. He only discusses a post Trib, Wrath return.

Thus everything John is shown "must take place after this (AD 95-96)." Bottom line is there is absolutely no passage anywhere in the Bible that discusses a Pre-Trib or any other Rapture specifically reserved for the Church as a collective unit. The "Rapture" based on all contexts is located on the last day and is associated with the Resurrection. There is no teaching of multi parts to the rapture/resurrection.

Stop acting like we have no verses.

You have been shown over and over the case made for the pretrib rapture.

I can easily,easily defend that doctrine. Your catch words do not drown out facts. You keep hoping they do,and they Must work in your circles,and in your mind,but that is all.

"rapture"
"tribulation"
"Wrath"
"resurrection"
"last day"
"trumpets"
"great tribulation"

All you do,is take a handful of words,dissect their location and hammerfit theories.

We do not need a statement from Jesus,worded to suit you.

Take one item that destroys your theory and wonder why there is a literal goldmine of verses testifying against you.

How do you get an ounce of traction past the verses that show the AC kills all on the planet refusing the mark?????
(I mean where in your mind do you think any living saint is there to gather alive postrib??)

Where is your post judgement deliverance and then 5 second later u turn BACK TO THE SPOT OF JUDGEMENT????
Lot?...um,no he was delivered PRE JUDGEMENT
Baby Jesus? Um,no he was delivered to egypt PREJUDGEMENT
Noah? Um,no he and family were GATHERED INTO THE ARK (a type of heaven)....Prejudgement!
(remember,you guys invented "the wicked are 'always' gathered first") .......NEVER ACTUALLY.

But surely they were gathered AFTER judgement right?

Lets make it fit;

"And as the ark filled with water and noah and his family with superior ,supernatural strength treaded water to the tippy top of a mountain till the waters abated,Then,AFTER THE TRIBULATION,God came and delivered them....uh,uh,didn't he???

"Lot's house was the only house that didn't burn,(cue the biblical revelation of the hebrew children),and then after the city cooled down to 200 deg f. God showed up,took lot away,and then after 50 yards of salvation took him back and God established his throne IN SODOM,after killing the bad guys that were left over from the fire" Uh,uh,uh didn't he????

The invented u turn reminds me of a housing development that built 80 houses with no place to put H20 heaters so they scabbed on closets on all the houses.
(obviously someone pointed out to you guys that the SAINTS (CHURCH) IS IN HEAVEN MOUNTING HORSES DURING THE GT AND RETURNS WITH JESUS) Thus the mad scramble and cunning,non scriptural,made up out of thin air u turn.
You guys literally made that one up.

Where is your template of "Where did JESUS SAY THOSE EXACT WORDS"??? WHY ARE YOU NOT APPLYING YOUR NECESSARY PROOF TO YOUR OWN DOCTRINE????

 

[GaryA]

you did not address what is missing in mat 24. Only what you want to see.

I don't remember ever seeing you address what is so painfully obvious in Matthew 24 --- only what you want to see...

I don't believe anything is "missing" in Matthew 24.

 

[GaryA]

But surely they were gathered AFTER judgement right?

"If you could ever get your head wrapped around the fact that the 'seals' and 'trumpets' are NOT part of the Wrath of God, then you JUST MIGHT begin to understand that those with a post-trib view don't actually think like you think they do..."

 

[popeye]

by popeye;
you did not address what is missing in mat 24. Only what you want to see.


Maybe we can try this;
12 Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women
13 Then thus came every maiden unto the king; whatsoever she desired was given her to go with her out of the house of the women unto the king's house.
14 In the evening she went, and on the morrow she returned into the second house of the women, to the custody of Shaashgaz, the king's chamberlain, which kept the concubines: she came in unto the king no more, except the king delighted in her, and that she were called by name.
15 Now when the turn of Esther, the daughter of Abihail the uncle of Mordecai, who had taken her for his daughter, was come to go in unto the king, she required nothing but what Hegai the king's chamberlain, the keeper of the women, appointed. And Esther obtained favour in the sight of all them that looked upon her.
16 So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is the month Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign.



Your version;
Before the bride goes before the king a preparation time is required. Knives,swords,blood and beatings.
These things prepare the bride for the king's bedroom.

I don't remember ever seeing you address what is so painfully obvious in Matthew 24 --- only what you want to see...

I don't believe anything is "missing" in Matthew 24.

Ok,this is a classic example of a postrib.

What they do,is ignore what is actually said in MEANING AND CONTEXT,zero in on a word ,and it's supposed twisted application,take it out of context,and go whooping and hollering like they just did anything but present ,yet another ,non issue..


Pssssst; Ester,bride,wedding chamber

Preparation,pampering

Your version ("left out") knives swords chopped off heads,beat to death,etc,etc....

See that??? See the point??? Your doctrine needs a beaten to worthiness (what you guys believe) bride to present to the king "PURIFIED" ...AS YOU GUYS WOULD SAY.

"Missing" is an understatement actually.
You should be out and out embarrassed

 

[popeye]

[

I Thessalonians 4:13-17:[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to beignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, evenas others which have no hope.[SUP]14[/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died androse again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the wordof the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of theLord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[SUP]16[/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descendfrom heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpof God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive andremain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord inthe air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When you read the entire passage, you realize this isabout the coming of the LORD, his return, which happens after the tribulation,not before…which is what Sunday Christians teach he will do.

Uh,no,what we have here is your ignoring of verses to suit your doctrine.

You just went along with a false teaching and now repeat it back.

You fell for the made up u turn back to the spot of Judgement.

You guys made that up.

 

[GaryA]

Ok,this is a classic example of a postrib.

What they do,is ignore what is actually said in MEANING AND CONTEXT,zero in on a word ,and it's supposed twisted application,take it out of context,and go whooping and hollering like they just did anything but present ,yet another ,non issue..


Pssssst; Ester,bride,wedding chamber

Preparation,pampering

Your version ("left out") knives swords chopped off heads,beat to death,etc,etc....

See that??? See the point??? Your doctrine needs a beaten to worthiness (what you guys believe) bride to present to the king "PURIFIED" ...AS YOU GUYS WOULD SAY.

"Missing" is an understatement actually.
You should be out and out embarrassed

Daniel 12:

[SUP]10[/SUP] Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Revelation 7:

[SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Do you understand the context of these verses of scripture?


The meaning and context rests in the 'grammar of the language'.

The meaning of a phrase like "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" is "blatently obvious" and very simple to understand, and does not require "jumping through modern-theological-ways-of-thinking hoops" to properly interpret.

Pre-Trib folks seem to want to avoid "dealing with" that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- instead, preferring to "couch" everything they believe about the End Times Scenario in a complex "cloud" of ninety-something percent "pre-interpreted" ideas from every imaginable parable and 'symbolic' thing they can find in the scriptures -- while trying to completely ignore that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures.

"All scripture must agree."

Yes - the parables have meaning.

Yes - the 'symbolic' things have meaning.

However - "all scripture must agree"...



When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.

I can say this because I have "been there and done that"...

And, I am telling you:

"You are mis-interpreting the meaning of parables and 'symbolic' things in the scriptures."



BTW - the 'wedding chamber' is after the wedding, not before it.

 

[GaryA]

Ok,this is a classic example of a postrib.

The classic example of a 'pretrib' is to avoid the simple and obvious while "inventing" a complex wish-it-could-be-this-way scenario so they can feel more comfortable about believing that they will not have to deal with any 'tribulation' actions / events / occurances "in this life"...

Again - "been there and done that" -- this is not an insult to 'pre-trib' folks - it is a testimony...

Pre-Trib folks - I repeat:

I am saying that the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view of biblical prophecy is incorrect. It is "a lie of Satan" -- and there is no truth in it. It is not biblical.

You need to "wake up" to the truth about the End Times Scenario --- I say this with all of the Christian love I can muster...

 

[Ahwatukee]

"If you could ever get your head wrapped around the fact that the 'seals' and 'trumpets' are NOT part of the Wrath of God, then you JUST MIGHT begin to understand that those with a post-trib view don't actually think like you think they do..."

Oh, but the seals and trumpets are part of the wrath of God. First of all, it is the Lamb, Jesus Christ who is opening the first seal, which leads into the trumpets and bowls and therefore, he is the One initiating God's wrath. Second, the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet are the only two places that list the percentages of fatalities which are a fourth and a third, which based on 7 billion people comes to 4.4 billion people. Thirdly, the seals and the trumpets are both mentioned as wrath as can be seen from the following:

6th seal: For the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand (includes the first four seals as well)

7th Trumpet: We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Seven Bowls: I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

The seven bowl judgments are treated as a unit "because with them" God's wrath is completed. Also, the bowls are said to be "Last" completing God's wrath, which would demonstrate that there would have to be wrath prior to the seven bowl judgments, which would be the seals and trumpets that come before them. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the means by which God fulfills the long prophesied "Day of the Lord," which are meant to fulfill the following:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,declares the Lord. “I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in
the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth”
(Zeph.2:3)

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

Through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God is going to decimate the population of the earth. By my guestimation, there will be less than 10% of the earth population left, if that, by the time that Jesus returns to end the age, which would fit with what he said regarding that time of wrath, "unless those days were shortened no one would be left alive on earth". Stop slicing and dicing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for Jesus is the One who is initiating them. He is the One who will be carrying out the wrath of God Almighty.

 

[GaryA]

'seals' -> 'judgement', yes; 'wrath', no

'trumpets' -> 'judgement', yes; 'wrath', no

'vials' -> 'judgement', yes; 'wrath', yes

Only the 'vials' are the Wrath of God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The classic example of a 'pretrib' is to avoid the simple and obvious while "inventing" a complex wish-it-could-be-this-way scenario so they can feel more comfortable about believing that they will not have to deal with any 'tribulation' actions / events / occurances "in this life"...

Again - "been there and done that" -- this is not an insult to 'pre-trib' folks - it is a testimony...

Pre-Trib folks - I repeat:


You need to "wake up" to the truth about the End Times Scenario --- I say this with all of the Christian love I can muster...

And what is common with mid and post trib beleiver's is that, they don't distinguish between the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, in comparison to the wrath of God, which is initiated by God himself, which is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are. As an example, when the apostles and the fist century church were being persecuted and killed, that was at the hands of men and the powers of darkness at work. The wrath that is coming is an unprecedented time in fulfillment of the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, where God himself will be pouring out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. After Paul described the resurrection and catching away, it was then followed by the time of wrath, of which he says that we are not appointed to suffer. The church will be resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of his wrath which begins at the first seal.

 

[popeye]

Oh, but the seals and trumpets are part of the wrath of God. First of all, it is the Lamb, Jesus Christ who is opening the first seal, which leads into the trumpets and bowls and therefore, he is the One initiating God's wrath. Second, the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet are the only two places that list the percentages of fatalities which are a fourth and a third, which based on 7 billion people comes to 4.4 billion people. Thirdly, the seals and the trumpets are both mentioned as wrath as can be seen from the following:

6th seal: For the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand (includes the first four seals as well)

7th Trumpet: We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Seven Bowls: I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

The seven bowl judgments are treated as a unit "because with them" God's wrath is completed. Also, the bowls are said to be "Last" completing God's wrath, which would demonstrate that there would have to be wrath prior to the seven bowl judgments, which would be the seals and trumpets that come before them. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the means by which God fulfills the long prophesied "Day of the Lord," which are meant to fulfill the following:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,declares the Lord. “I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in
the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth”
(Zeph.2:3)

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

Through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God is going to decimate the population of the earth. By my guestimation, there will be less than 10% of the earth population left, if that, by the time that Jesus returns to end the age, which would fit with what he said regarding that time of wrath, "unless those days were shortened no one would be left alive on earth". Stop slicing and dicing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for Jesus is the One who is initiating them. He is the One who will be carrying out the wrath of God Almighty.

The "wrath vs trib" dimension was invoked by mid-tribs when they suddenly realized that we are NOT appointed to wrath.

Thus they came up with "well we go through half of it"....but not the "wrath" part.

I don't understand why postribs believe any of their "doctrine" at this late hour,as they have been totally destroyed doctrinally.

But they somehow need that "distinct designation" between wrath and trib.

 

[popeye]

The classic example of a 'pretrib' is to avoid the simple and obvious while "inventing" a complex wish-it-could-be-this-way scenario so they can feel more comfortable about believing that they will not have to deal with any 'tribulation' actions / events / occurances "in this life"...

Again - "been there and done that" -- this is not an insult to 'pre-trib' folks - it is a testimony...

Pre-Trib folks - I repeat:


You need to "wake up" to the truth about the End Times Scenario --- I say this with all of the Christian love I can muster...

...and yet you continue to major on flyspecks and ignore our verses.

 

[GaryA]

..., which would fit with what he said regarding that time of wrath, "unless those days were shortened no one would be left alive on earth".

That statement is in the context of the Great Tribulation Period, not [ specifically ] the 'seals', 'trumpets', or 'vials'.

The 'seals' events occur during the Great Tribulation Period; and hence, do have a connection with that statement.

The 'trumpets' events occur after the Great Tribulation Period, but before the Second Coming of Christ.

The 'vials' events occur after the Second Coming of Christ.

..., for Jesus is the One who is initiating them.

True -- but not quite in the way most people think...

He is the One who will be carrying out the wrath of God Almighty.

Absolutely! And, in the way most people think...

But, this is the 'vials' only; it does not include the 'seals' events or the 'trumpet' events.

 

[popeye]

Revelation 7:

[SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Do you understand the context of these verses of scripture?


The meaning and context rests in the 'grammar of the language'.

".....washed their robes...."
Went right over your head,even though you are the one that posted it


This is why you need to keep the pretrib verses off the table,so you can just sky grab verses and think you did something.


Psssst;
Nobody washes their robes unless they are dirty.

5 non existant foolish virgins,non existently left behind,...........uh yes they did get martyred "washing of robes"...they were like prodigals.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The "wrath vs trib" dimension was invoked by mid-tribs when they suddenly realized that we are NOT appointed to wrath.

Thus they came up with "well we go through half of it"....but not the "wrath" part.

I don't understand why postribs believe any of their "doctrine" at this late hour,as they have been totally destroyed doctrinally.

But they somehow need that "distinct designation" between wrath and trib.

What bothers me about all this controversy, regardless of the topic, is that it seems that people are more concerned about protecting their positions than finding out the truth of the matter.

Regarding the time of God's wrath, true believer's have already received Christ and will have remained faithful, watching for and anticipating Christ's appearing to gather the church. According to the mid and post believer's, God would be putting both the wicked and the righteous through the same wrath, which is not in God's nature to punish the righteous with the wicked. This is the premise of the resurrection and the catching away and that is to remove the righteous from the earth before God pours out his wrath and that because the whole earth will be under God's attack with no where to hide.

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

'seals' -> 'judgement', yes; 'wrath', no

'trumpets' -> 'judgement', yes; 'wrath', no

'vials' -> 'judgement', yes; 'wrath', yes

Only the 'vials' are the Wrath of God.

'judgment'

 

[GaryA]

And what is common with mid and post trib beleiver's is that, they don't distinguish between the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, in comparison to the wrath of God, which is initiated by God himself, which is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are. As an example, when the apostles and the fist century church were being persecuted and killed, that was at the hands of men and the powers of darkness at work. The wrath that is coming is an unprecedented time in fulfillment of the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, where God himself will be pouring out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. After Paul described the resurrection and catching away, it was then followed by the time of wrath, of which he says that we are not appointed to suffer. The church will be resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of his wrath which begins at the first seal.

What people need to understand is that - the Great Tribulation "comes at the hand of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background"...

The Great Tribulation is not a part of the Wrath of God. It is not "at the hand of God" / "dished out by God" --- you need to understand this, from a Biblical Order-Of-Events point-of-view.