How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

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R

Roberth

Banned
#421
Oct 3, 2015
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#421
I think its time we went through what you quoted out of context, verse by verse.
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2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
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Paul isn't saying that their are some who no longer have indwelling sin (the sin nature). What is saying is let's see the lost, not as they are, but how thy are "in Christ in the heavenly realms". See Eph 2:6

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
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"If anyone is in Christ". What does that mean? We have already read in verse 14 that "when One died, all died". If all died then all had to be in Christ. That's not an "if"!

The "if" has to do with whether one has believed in Christ or not. If one has placed his/her faith in Christ, he/she is a new creation. Where? In himself or herself? No! "In Christ". We are a new creation, i.e., holy, and blameless" in Christ. See also Col 1:21,22

Why does this not refer to the believer? Because "all things" have not become new in the believer!

For example, the believer is still mortal. The believer still has a sinful nature. The believer still is falling short of God's agape (which is sin). So the only thing that has changed in the believer is his/her heart. That simply mean his/her "mind". The heart is now in harmony with God's agape, but the flesh is still in harmony with the love of self.

So you aren't a new creation yet, in yourself. You receive this "new creation" at the resurrection when you are changed.


 
K

KennethC

Guest
#422
#422
Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#423
Oct 3, 2015
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#423
KennethC said:
Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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I never said that through Christ we can't grow in grace. That's another subject....

Roberth
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#424
#424
Roberth said:


Now I have heard it all. This is self-righteousness on steroids.

We are not Holy. The Spirit of God dwells in sinners, who are growing in grace, but nonetheless sinners. Who are you kidding?

Now, if you think you are without sin, I have some Bible verses for you. Maybe you need to reconsider your statement?. :)
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Nope, Wrong again. Jesus is my Advocate. You have to get past him to accuse me.



Ya know, I thought at first your posts held some merit. Nope. I was wrong.



Goodbye.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#425
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#425
VioletReigns said:
Nope, Wrong again. Jesus is my Advocate. You have to get past him to accuse me.
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No worries, because if you are being self-righteous you don't need an Advocate and you are very accessible. Just ask Job! He too was very busy defending his own righteousness and that left God out of the picture. That's why Job had all those problems.

Let's study Job....Shall we????
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#426
#426
Roberth said:
I never said that through Christ we can't grow in grace. That's another subject....

Roberth
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That scripture from Jude is speaking of teachers who preach grace in a way to excuse sinful behavior to continue in our lives.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit which will be produced by walking in the Spirit is the exact opposite of transgression, therefore if we are walking by the Spirit we can not transgress/sin unless we are drawn away by our own desires and lusts.

Apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1 we are to be cleansed in the flesh and spirit !!!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#427
#427
Roberth said:
No worries, because if you are being self-righteous you don't need an Advocate and you are very accessible. Just ask Job! He too was very busy defending his own righteousness and that left God out of the picture. That's why Job had all those problems.

Let's study Job....Shall we????
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What that is not why those happened to Job, as God allowed satan to test his faith as God knew he would never waver from that faith in Him, no matter what satan did to him.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#428
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#428
KennethC said:
That scripture from Jude is speaking of teachers who preach grace in a way to excuse sinful behavior to continue in our lives.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit which will be produced by walking in the Spirit is the exact opposite of transgression, therefore if we are walking by the Spirit we can not transgress/sin unless we are drawn away by our own desires and lusts.

Apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1 we are to be cleansed in the flesh and spirit !!!
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Okay, apparently no one (except Christ) is fully walking in the Spirit. How do I know?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Did you get that? It doesn't say all are condoning sin and living it as a lifestyle. No, it says that all have sinned (past tense) and fall short of God's glory (His goodness, see Ex 333:18,19).

"And fall short" is in the continuous, present tense. This simply means that no one is measuring up! Therefore you can't boast....


 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#429
#429
Roberth said:
No worries, because if you are being self-righteous you don't need an Advocate and you are very accessible. Just ask Job! He too was very busy defending his own righteousness and that left God out of the picture. That's why Job had all those problems.

Let's study Job....Shall we????
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Well, if you were a friend of the Lord's, you'd know that He said don't worry about anything and don't be afraid. You'd also know that He said He's the One keeping us from falling and that we can rest in Him.

But I can see now what spirit is driving you to jump onto this site and immediately begin to try to beat others over the head with your great and wise scripture interpretations: (Let's shout it out together, CC brothers & sisters!)

"SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!"
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#430
Oct 3, 2015
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#430
KennethC said:
What that is not why those happened to Job, as God allowed satan to test his faith as God knew he would never waver from that faith in Him, no matter what satan did to him.
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That's the tradition, wrong view....Let's go for it.
 
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R

Roberth

Banned
#432
Oct 3, 2015
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#432
Roberth said:
That's the tradition, wrong view....Let's go for it.
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Key verses:

Job's self-righteousness:

"Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

God, through Elihu, rebukes Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:1 Elihu continued: 2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf...

Job's problem:

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.

Job repents:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 "Behold, I am vile..." Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"...

Job's wealth is restored:

Job 42:12 "The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first."

Conclusion:

When God said that Job was blameless, He was presenting Job's view of himself.

Principle: “everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted”
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#433
Oct 3, 2015
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#433
More:

Job 35:1 (Elihu to Job) Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS)

Within the context of Job chapter 35, Elihu says:

"So Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

In other words Job is self-deceived in his claims to righteousness.

The question is does God agree with what Elihu stated? Remember Elihu claims to speak in God's behalf (see Job 36:1).

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

This is the first time God speaks directly to Job. So when did God counsel Job?

Answer: Through Elihu!

God is in agreement with Elihu! Both of them tell Job that his claims to righteousness are words spoken without knowledge. What is Job's reply?

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.

What a difference we see in Job now. Before this Job claimed to be righteous before God. He claimed to be without sin. He claimed to be blameless.

But now we see a changed man. We see a humble Job who realizes that his righteousness was really self-righteousness and he realized that in comparison to God's righteousness he was actually "vile".

Not only did Job have a change of heart but he also repented of his self-righteousness:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#434
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#434
And I though legalism only existed in the 7th-day Adventist church....Boy was I wrong.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#437
#437
Roberth said:
That's the tradition, wrong view....Let's go for it.
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Job 1:8

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


Job 2:3

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, thatt here is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#438
#438
Roberth said:
And I though legalism only existed in the 7th-day Adventist church....Boy was I wrong.
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Oh no, there is way more subtle legalism than those folks................like yours.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#439
#439
Roberth said:
Okay, apparently no one (except Christ) is fully walking in the Spirit. How do I know?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Did you get that? It doesn't say all are condoning sin and living it as a lifestyle. No, it says that all have sinned (past tense) and fall short of God's glory (His goodness, see Ex 333:18,19).

"And fall short" is in the continuous, present tense. This simply means that no one is measuring up! Therefore you can't boast....
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This is the misconception that always seems to get used, and that is using Romans 3:21 as a current standing just like Romans 7 always does. Paul is speaking here of falling short before being saved through Christ, as he goes right into the next verse of being redeemed now in Christ.

This was done by those false teachers mentioned of in Jude to make a continuous sinful life as a never ending thing.

Do we backslide and sin here and there again, yes which is why we are told to confess them to the Lord when we do. Remember Apostle John said "if" we sin again, not we will sin again !!!
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#440
#440
Roberth said:
Mystery? No, not really. They were righteous by faith. They were righteous through what Christ was yet to do....We are never righteous in reality, of our own. Never....
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And this is stating then that there has never been an "old" and "new" covenant but merely a fulfilling of all of the covenant promises. For, if the Prophets of old such as Moses, Elijas and Isaiah are saved by the ransoming blood of Our Lord and no man is righteous before god unless he is in Christ then this same covenant through Christ can save Abel and Gentile sinners and nullifies any New Testament bias. Is this your view?
 
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