Ten Reasons To Reject Baptismal Regeneration

[P1LGR1M]

1. Baptism refers to identification or association with someone or something:

This one may be a little confusing, but it must be remembered that often when we consider baptism it refers to identification or association with someone or something. Why that is significant to the Baptism with the Spirit of God is that there is the spiritual union of the believer with God. We are identified and associated with God through the Spirit, Who indwells the believer upon salvation. The view of the Baptismal Regenerationist is that it is the immersion in water which is salvific, rather than the genuine identification the believer has with God as he/she is brought into union with God through the indwelling of God within the believer.



2. Baptism carries the picture of immersion:


Like unto point one, immersion is not into physical water, but into the Body of Christ, which is the condition of every believer that is Baptized with the Spirit of God. One becomes a part of the Body of Christ, that is, the spiritual union between God and man that was lost in Adam is restored. When the Baptismal Regenerationist looks to the immersion in water as salvific, rather than the reality of immersion into relationship with God, they make that which is meant to picture the reality the reality itself, thus diminishing the Work of Christ on the Cross as the only means by which man can be brought back into relationship with God.




3. The Book of Romans does not mention water Baptism:


If, as the BR teaches, water baptism were necessary for salvation (rather than obedience), it seems Paul would have mentioned this in his Epistle to the Romans. We do have a reference to baptism, but it is doubtful Christian Baptism is in view, seeing we are baptized into Christ at salvation, which most will acknowledge takes place before they submit to the public display of profession of faith.




4. Hebrews warns against a foundational view:


The Book of Hebrews not only does not speak of water baptism (washings, Hebrews 6:1-2, not a reference to Christ Baptism), but gives solemn warning to the Hebrew believers of that day not to "lay again the foundation of...washings." The writer contrasts the ritual method of cleansing of the Law (Judaism, not the Word) with the completion found in He that the foundational doctrines pointed to, that is, Christ. The Law presented the picture, Christ presented the reality. There is little difference between one viewing Christian Water Baptism as a means of cleansing and the cleansing those engaged in Judaism saw in the washings they performed.




5. Christ is the Baptizer:


Whereas in Christian Baptism this is performed by a Minister/Pastor. Why this point is significant is due to the fact that the Baptism with the Spirit is said to be performed by Christ, not men, as we see it contrasted with the Baptism with John (Matthew 3:11). When we give salvific value to water baptism we make the one performing the baptism the Baptizer. But the Word of God makes clear that Christ is the Baptizer and He baptizes with the Spirit of God, not water.




6. Christ baptizes with Spirit (salvation) and fire (judgment)...never with water:


Nowhere do we have a record of Christ baptizing with water (John 4:1-2), but this was, just as it is today, accomplished by men appointed for this task. The baptism performed during His earthly ministry was not the Baptism with Spirit but a foundational baptism which had in view the picture of both cleansing and association as discussed in the first two points. But we can say with certainty that the Baptism with the Spirit of God did not begin until after the Ascension (John 16:7) by which we do well not to confuse that Baptism (with Spirit) with the Baptism of John or those performed by the Disciples of Christ.




7. Paul states he was not sent to baptize:


In 1 Corinthians 1:17 we see Paul state he was not sent to baptize, which would be the same thing as saying "I was not sent to lead men to salvation" if in fact water baptism, even Christian (water) Baptism...were intrinsic to salvation. In view is sectarianism in which men vaunt those they were baptized by as though this made them a superior member in the Body of Christ, when in fact Paul makes it clear that their baptism itself is not the important issue. In 1 Corinthians 1:13 & 18 Paul makes it clear that it is the death of Christ, not water baptism by which men are saved. He ascribes salvific value to the preaching of the Cross and in 1 Corinthians 1:14 actually thanks God that he himself did not baptize them.




8. The remission of sins is consistently taught as through the Death of Christ:


...not water baptism. Baptismal Regeneration attributes salvation as requiring water baptism, effectively adding to the Work of Christ.



9. The Disciples of Christ are never recorded as being baptized:


The Disciples of Christ are never recorded as being baptized either in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, nor in the Name of Christ. If water baptism were a requirement for one to be saved...it seems that the Disciples themselves would have undergone water baptism. We cannot attribute the foundational baptism prior to the coming of the Comforter as that precedes the Age of Grace and remains a part of the Age of Law. What we do see is that they were baptized with the Spirit when He came on the Day of Pentecost.




10. We have record of men being saved before water baptism:


Acts 10:44-48

King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.



The Baptism with the Spirit of God is what is in view here. This is what John spoke of when he diminished his own baptism unto repentance and glorified Christ and the Baptism He would perform in regards to salvation.
I would also add that John's baptism had an identification with repentance. And that repentance was required before one was baptized, rather than taking a view that because one was baptized...repentance came. He rebukes the Jews that had not truly repented and forbad them from being baptized, calling for them to first bring forth fruit meet for repentance, or in other words...prove it! The works of the Pharisees gave testimony that they were falsely confessing repentance, though we also see that this rebuke was not just for the Pharisees (Luke 3:7-8).

The single greatest proof-text the Baptismal Regenerationist has for this doctrine is found here:


Mark 16:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



One being baptized after believing is a given. I believe it is water baptism in view here, but I do not see it as the Lord affirming Baptismal Regeneration. When we look at the means of salvation as consistently taught in Scripture we see that it is attributed to Christ alone, and that nothing can be added to that. We do believe it is commanded that men be baptized in water to affirm their profession of faith in Christ, and that this pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But, we understand that one is saved through faith in Christ...alone. No work of man can bring about salvation, for if that were possible, Christ need not have gone to the Cross to pay the penalty of our sin Galatians 2:21).

This is not given as a comprehensive list, but given to encourage discussion on the issue.


God bless.

 

[epostle]

This should be interesting, since Protestants are divided in 5 major camps on baptism.

[h=1]Titus 3:5-75 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.[/h]

 

[Dan_473]

well, are you looking for, or wanting to talk about, a formula for when God saves or gives the spirit?

my impression from the scriptures is that God doesn't always behave in ways that we can predict.

for example, are there loopholes that God knows about but you or I don't?

 

[P1LGR1M]

well, are you looking for, or wanting to talk about, a formula for when God saves or gives the spirit?

my impression from the scriptures is that God doesn't always behave in ways that we can predict.

for example, are there loopholes that God knows about but you or I don't?

That would stand in conflict with why God gave us His Word to begin with, wouldn't it? Did He not give us His Word that we might know His will? That we might come to understand His heart in man's affairs?

There are no "loop-holes" in Scripture, in my view, nor gray areas which the Word cannot speak to and lead us to a decided conclusion.

And I am not looking for a formula, lol, simply to discuss Baptismal Regeneration.

I would agree that in Acts we see a variation in when the Spirit is given, at least on the surface that is what it seems like, but, the points above are given that Baptismal Regenerationists can address them if they feel they are in error.



God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

This should be interesting, since Protestants are divided in 5 major camps on baptism.

Titus 3:5-75 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

So what do you think the writer is stating when he speaks of us being saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost?


God bless.

 

[Is]

Bump this.

 

[oldhermit]

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

 

[SOGMan]

That would stand in conflict with why God gave us His Word to begin with, wouldn't it? Did He not give us His Word that we might know His will? That we might come to understand His heart in man's affairs?

The answer to this question would determine one's view of Scripture. (And vice-versa)

There are no "loop-holes" in Scripture, in my view, nor gray areas which the Word cannot speak to and lead us to a decided conclusion.

I actually believe there ARE "loop-holes" in Scripture. There are certainly many gray areas, which is why many can study the same passage and come to widely diverse conclusions.

 

[DP]

Jesus Himself was baptized when John the Baptist well recognized Jesus had no need, yet He did it to fulfill, and He commanded us to do it, so He set the example for us, and that's enough to show that we need to do it.

 

[Dan_473]

That would stand in conflict with why God gave us His Word to begin with, wouldn't it? Did He not give us His Word that we might know His will? That we might come to understand His heart in man's affairs?

well, possibly... did God say why he gave us his word?

another idea: does he say that we, as humans, I can understand it completely? maybe so... I don't know

 

[Kefa54]

My question would be. Why would a healthy believer not want to be baptized?

Jesus himself said ...
Matthew 28:18-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I believe that there are circumstances like medical or nailed to a cross that will relieve a believer from being Baptized. Why would a healthy able person refuse to be baptized?

If a person accepted Christ and refused to be baptized?? I would be lead to question their commitment.


Kefa

 

[dcontroversal]

AMEN to the truth...immersion is a picture, a spiritual painting that points to what has taken place in Christ and is our outward confession and identification of and with Christ which has taken place by faith....the picture of salvation, death of old man, resurrection of the new creation on Christ Jesus all possessed by faith before immersion..

 

[P1LGR1M]

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Would you mind providing a context for the quote?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

That would stand in conflict with why God gave us His Word to begin with, wouldn't it? Did He not give us His Word that we might know His will? That we might come to understand His heart in man's affairs?

The answer to this question would determine one's view of Scripture. (And vice-versa)

Not really, it is a simple enough question.

God did not give men revelation He never intended them to comprehend. It is a misconception promoted by those who would like to keep their followers in reliance in themselves.

The Catholic Church presents a pretty good picture of what happens when the "average plow boy" is not given access to the Word of God, but must go to someone to tell them what it is God told them.

And every cult and pseudo-Christian group can be seen to have "Holy Writings" which take precedent over the Word of God. "New Revelation" is another means of deception used.

But we can say that God has given His Word for the express purpose that men, all men...should know His will.

The Word of God is not a code book which requires the magic decoder ring, it is revelation to man by God, and if there is one thing we can be sure of, God knows what is necessary to communicate with men.

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

There are no "loop-holes" in Scripture, in my view, nor gray areas which the Word cannot speak to and lead us to a decided conclusion.

I actually believe there ARE "loop-holes" in Scripture.

Could you provide some examples?

There are certainly many gray areas,

Examples?

which is why many can study the same passage and come to widely diverse conclusions.

Sorry, but this is not accurate.

God has not condoned a free for all in regards to what He has stated.

We don't see the "diverse conclusions" of the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees commended by Christ, but it is the Word of God He charges them with being in error in regards to, and this because they did not know the Scriptures.

We do not see the disciples of John given a pass because they received the baptism of John, but are told they needed to heed John's preaching and believe on Christ.

Now, I would be glad to look at these "loop-holes" and "gray areas" you perceive in Scripture, as well as invite you to address the points made (which again, were made to stir up discussion on this issue).


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus Himself was baptized when John the Baptist well recognized Jesus had no need, yet He did it to fulfill, and He commanded us to do it, so He set the example for us, and that's enough to show that we need to do it.

You feel Christ being baptized by John is an example for us to be baptized in water?

I can understand that reasoning, but have to say the Baptism of John has nothing to do with Christian Baptism. Christian Baptism is an identification with Christ, whereas John's baptism is identified...with the Law.

It was the Law that people had transgressed, and were in need of repentance.

John makes it clear he baptized with water, but that One was coming Who would not baptize with water...but with fire (judgment) and the Holy Ghost (salvation).

Now let me ask you, who is it that baptizes with water in Christian Baptism? And Who is it that Baptizes with fire and Judgment?

That would be point 6 in the OP.


God bless.

 

[Gr8grace]

My question would be. Why would a healthy believer not want to be baptized?

Jesus himself said ...
Matthew 28:18-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I believe that there are circumstances like medical or nailed to a cross that will relieve a believer from being Baptized. Why would a healthy able person refuse to be baptized?

If a person accepted Christ and refused to be baptized?? I would be lead to question their commitment.


Kefa

I never went to church. my family never went to church. My dad was saved later in life and it is was in a truck listening to the radio.

My dad kept witnessing to me and a couple years later I was saved as I walked out of my shop. Never went to a church before this and was no where near a church.

I started to investigate churches after I was saved. did this for probably a year, just sat in the back and listened. I was never led to be baptized or had the ear to hear if it was preached.

SO, I was asked by a friend to do a mission trip in Alaska. I couldn't go unless I was baptized and affiliated with a particular church. So I got baptized.................for that reason. To go to Alaska.

If I knew what I know now, I would of refused baptism. That is not the reason we get dunked in a tank of water.

I would never hinder someone who wants to be dipped in a tank of water. But water baptism is not for the Church. Water baptism was a teaching tool, to show the reality of the coming TRUE baptism of the Spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

My question would be. Why would a healthy believer not want to be baptized?

Jesus himself said ...
Matthew 28:18-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I believe that there are circumstances like medical or nailed to a cross that will relieve a believer from being Baptized. Why would a healthy able person refuse to be baptized?

If a person accepted Christ and refused to be baptized?? I would be lead to question their commitment.


Kefa

Heavy

Baptism is a celebration of Jesus's victory over death, setting us free, making it possible for me to call Him a friend.

Until someone sees this is the joy of baptism they are missing the point. It is not like a qualification, or an essential ceremony. I was baptised after spending two years on the mission field. I was christened as a baby and confirmed, but these had only meaning to my family.

When I started to go to a brethren church I felt maybe I should be baptised, but for some reason was held back. I think it is important to do these things for the right reasons and with all the confusion about, it is best not to get involved in ideas around is this significant for you or just because it is the "right" thing to do. You best friend calls you, until you hear this, you need to get your heart sorted out.

 

[pwrnJC]

Pilgrim...I whole heartedly agree with you on this topic. Yes, we identify with JESUS CHRIST by being baptized in water, as HE was and set an example that gave us the full picture of JESUS, GOD (The Father) and the presence of the Holy Spirit at one time, all present and accounted for. What I see is that most denominations do not emphasize the importance of being baptized 'in the spirit" for then, it would run against the grain of the denomination itself! Why, if people were allowed to gather in spirit, in one accord, seeking the Holy Spirit, inviting HIM to be part of the worship service, it would cause a huge disturbance, it would not be able to be put on the big screens, it would take time away from the choir singing a well practiced Special, and it just might cause the altar to be used and the decorations would be knocked over or have to be taken down to make room for the people coming forward. Who wants to miss the Noon dismissal? Who needs to hear praising, singing, and witness people responding to the movement of the Holy Spirit. Somebody just might shout, or dance or laugh and then the bats in the belfry would be awaken.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

That would stand in conflict with why God gave us His Word to begin with, wouldn't it? Did He not give us His Word that we might know His will? That we might come to understand His heart in man's affairs?

well, possibly... did God say why he gave us his word?

From the very beginning, lol.

The point is made here, I believe:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


While it could be argued based on Romans 3:1-2...

Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


...that "God gave His Word to Israel," the fact is that God has revealed His will to men from the Garden. While it may be that the Word of God was committed to Israel, we see that the Word of God begins with Creation, not the creation of Israel.

We see Prophets prior to Israel's creation, and the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that God has "at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," and that exceeds the bounds of Israel.

Now we ask the question...why did God give us His will?

Was it so we could be confused as to what we think God expects?

Or for the specific purpose of knowing exactly what God expects?

another idea: does he say that we, as humans, I can understand it completely?

All divine revelation comes directly from God. And it is my belief that there is nothing, at all, in Scripture that He does not mean us to understand.

While someone might find a vague reference to something they feel is not something any man can understand, chances are we need only cross reference that "mystery" with the overview of Biblical Doctrine and come to an understanding of it.

Christ stated...


John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


This is a declaration that the Comforter would guide them into all truth. It is significant to distinguish that "all truth" consists of that which is revealed by God. People might ask questions such as "Where did Cain's wife come from," lol, but the truth...God did not see fit to reveal this in specific terms. We can, however, come to a conclusion that his wife would have been a descendant of Adam and Eve, right?

We know the Spirit's Ministry in this Age is to glorify Christ, and as Christ expounded the Scriptures, the Law, Prophets, and Psalms, even so we can conclude that the Spirit will expound the Scriptures to us. So I take the view that the entirety of God's Word is relevant to Christ, and that the Comforter will guide us into all truth. This was not meant for the disciples only, for the Comforter's Ministry continues after salvation, and I believe God intends for us to grow in understanding, and a stronger faith and maturity is the result of that guidance.

One last passage:


Hebrews 5:11-14
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The "Oracles," or Word of God here is a reference to the Hebrew Scriptures. In regards to the Doctrine of Christ, they should be teachers, but, they need to be taught again the basic principles of the Scripture that is foundational to Christ, that is, what was taught prior.

We see that strong meat belongs to those who are of full age who have by reason of use...have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

His point is they have failed to be diligent in regards to the Word of God. Secondly, they lack the discernment that is available to every Bible Student.

And the primary error this thread is intended to deal with is Baptismal Regeneration, which stands in stark contrast to the great many passages that make it clear that Christ is the Savior, and that He it is that Baptizes. While it might seem like a non-issue, we have to maintain the purity of the Gospel, which means dismantling those doctrines which teach salvation is accomplished by anything other than the Cross of Christ, or that man has any involvement in Eternal Salvation.

maybe so... I don't know

You can, but only through diligent study and trusting that God will fulfill His promises to you. One of those promises is to guide you into all truth.


James 1:5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


And we can trust God in all areas of our lives.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

My question would be. Why would a healthy believer not want to be baptized?

Jesus himself said ...
Matthew 28:18-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I believe that there are circumstances like medical or nailed to a cross that will relieve a believer from being Baptized. Why would a healthy able person refuse to be baptized?

If a person accepted Christ and refused to be baptized?? I would be lead to question their commitment.


Kefa

Place that question into the historical context of the Early Church and we could come up with a number of reasons why men would refuse to be Baptized in the Name of Christ. Especially for a First Century Jew, who risked being excommunicated from the society he grew up in. Possibly death.

The command to be baptized demanded that a true profession be verified by baptism. Those who refused would evidence that their faith was not something they would give up what they had for.

Today, in our modern culture here in America, we have the problem of people thinking that baptism has salvific quality. And for those groups which teach that salvation begins at water baptism, the problem of false profession of faith is compounded.

Those that teach that people receive the Spirit and are regenerated when they are water baptized instill a false sense of security that Scripture never intends to do. Scripture intends to convict the heart, and help people avoid a false sense of security.

Genuine faith is evidenced in the lives of believers, and there is a change in them. But how many are involved in what is called "Churchianity," as opposed to Christianity? Many have been, through poor teaching, convinced that because they were baptized, and go to "church" regularly, that they are Christians. Some think Christianity is something that can be entered into through heritage.

So addressing Baptismal Regeneration is a serious matter, and unfortunately, like some other issues, it might be thought that a rejection of Baptismal Regeneration is a rejection of Christian Baptism, which is generally considered to be the first act of obedience for a new believer.

Those who refuse raise questions as to the genuine nature of their conversion. It is unlikely that someone recently under conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment...would seriously refuse to obey what Christ has commanded.

I think we need to understand, though, that the danger of improperly understanding Christian Baptism demands that we understand salvation better, that we might better impart to new believers how they were saved, and how they were not saved. Teaching someone they receive salvation and/or the Spirit of God by being baptized by a man stands in direct contradiction to Scripture.

For most of us it seems simple enough, Christ is the Baptizer, not men. We are Baptized into Christ, not water. The identification with Christ is expressed in Christian Baptism, but, that Baptism would have meant something entirely different back then, in regards to a public profession. Here in America, and perhaps many parts of the world, the worst thing one might experience is a little embarrassment if they are overly shy. If one stood to be ostracized, and possibly put to death for a profession of faith, that would be a different story altogether.


God bless.