Undeniably overwhelming and resounding proof of the truth of WOF, NICI, and BIGI.

shotgunner · Nov 15, 2015

Yes, I completely agree with that. I guess my point though is that someone with that kind of heart will only do more with more money. God told Abraham that he would bless him and make him a blessing. God made Abraham rich. It's part of the covenant but God did it so that Abraham would be a blessing, not so he could just build bigger barns to hold more stuff.

In fact with God's word in effect in your life when you give, it's given back good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. It's an endless supply of you giving and reaping. That's the way wealth is supposed to be looked at, not as something evil where it's all about how much you can accumulate and horde.

Many Christians won't believe for this blessing from God though because they view all money as evil and everyone with money as evil. It really is a shame to me because without that blessing from God many suffer from the effects of poverty that otherwise wouldn't have to.

RickyZ · Nov 15, 2015

The problem with wealth is that it's never enough. Do you ever watch the show Shark Tank? Kevin O'Leery is a billionaire... yet his one and only motivation in life is how do I make more? I've known rich people and every single one of them was obsessed with making more. You may not think you would, but money has a strange way of changing people, and not for the better. There are tons of Biblical warnings against having too much. Jesus said the poor woman who gave a penny gave more than those who gave out of their abundance. God is no respecter of cash and material things... and I think that's the example He would have us follow.

shotgunner · Nov 15, 2015

RickyZ said:

You are looking at it wrong. You have this picture of someone accumulating wealth. Accumulating being a picture of someone hording wealth just for the sake of having more. You are right that that person isn't serving God with wealth. That person has wealth in the kingship position. Yes, scripture strongly warns us against allowing this to happen.

There are however people of means that don't worship money. They use money to be a blessing to their church and to others. Yes, they enjoy it's benefits but they don't place it in the kingship position of their lives. I do know, and have known many of these people. They don't go around bragging about what they do though , so it's not always as easy to see as a worldly person.

RickyZ · Nov 15, 2015

God provides for our needs. Look at the manna... every day God provided for the people's needs to eat... but they then tried to accumulate it, only to see it spoil in their hands. It's in the fallen nature to want more than we actually need. God provides what we need... to seek after any more than that is to go beyond what God has for us.

biblicalsandy · Nov 15, 2015

RickyZ said:

The problem with wealth is that it's never enough. Do you ever watch the show Shark Tank? Kevin O'Leery is a billionaire... yet his one and only motivation in life is how do I make more? I've known rich people and every single one of them was obsessed with making more. You may not think you would, but money has a strange way of changing people, and not for the better. There are tons of Biblical warnings against having too much. Jesus said the poor woman who gave a penny gave more than those who gave out of their abundance. God is no respecter of cash and material things... and I think that's the example He would have us follow.

Gas Monkey Garage, I do not watch due to the drive for more money...Nor do I like watching Pawn Stars

shotgunner · Nov 15, 2015

RickyZ said:

That was the wilderness experience, not the promised land experience. When they entered into the promised land, they had an abundance, with only the warning not to forget that it was the Lord who had brought them there.

God is a God of abundance, not a God of barely enough. When Jesus caused Peter to receive a blessing of fish, it wasn't just enough to pay the bills that day. It was an abundance that nearly sank his boat and his partner's boats. When Jesus fed the multitude there wasn't just enough to keep them from starving. They ate their fill and there was 12 baskets left over.

know1 · Nov 15, 2015

RickyZ said:

The owner and CEO of Hobby Lobby.

know1 · Nov 15, 2015

RickyZ said:

Was Abraham that way?
The people you are talking about are not godly people.
There is nothing wrong with trying to get more money either, so long as you don't make it your God and give to God and the poor.

PeterJens · Nov 16, 2015

Wealth is a problem. It is also like intelligence. They can all be used to defend our hearts when we are hurt.
Jesus came so that we can be whole, alive, healed of hurts and walking in righteousness and love.

Many here deny this is possible or even the goal. What we can all agree with is a life filled with money is easy to live, you can choose what you do and how you do it. Or so it would seem.

When you listen to people you find they are full of worries about loosing it, about how to stay with it, defend it. It consumes them whole until nothing is left.

There is only one place where our security is safe, in Jesus.

Those who push any other safety are living in unbelief. Listen to the words of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego

"If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us from Your Majesty’s hand. But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
Danial 3:17-18

Whether we are rich or poor, in health or sickness, we will exalt our God, that is our faith. God blesses but it is not why we follow Him, it is because we love Him despite would the future holds, and the trials through which we will go.

All WOF offers is easy believism, while you are rich or aspiring and in good health everything is rosy, but when it goes wrong, it all falls apart.

RickyZ · Nov 16, 2015

know1 said:

I'm curious, just how much did Jesus have in His bank account? How big and opulent was His home? How many things did He collect?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

But go ahead, keep accumulating worldly things, and then making excuses for having them.

And good luck on judgment day with that.

shotgunner · Nov 16, 2015

RickyZ said:

Jesus has a caravan travel for two years to deliver wealth to him. Jesus had a garment valuable enough to be gambled for. Jesus had a house, I don't know how big. Jesus had a full time staff of 12 and a treasurer. Evidently he had enough cash on hand that Judas could steal without it being noticed.

Angela53510 · Nov 16, 2015

shotgunner said:

This is the most blatant twisting of Scripture I have ever seen and that is saying a lot.

"And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” Luke 9:58

This is the truth about Jesus life and ministry, not this horrific use of the Bible in a way that totally defies all the rules of good hermeneutical interpretation.

If this is the lie you have been fed from the Word of Faith movement, I suggest you go back and read the entire Bible, (without watching one single youtube video or televangelist of any sort!!) underlining each and every place it talks about the poor and the needy. I think you will find a completely different Bible that the one that you are espousing.

shotgunner · Nov 16, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Maybe it is you who needs to go back and read. I'm sorry you have been indoctrinated into the poverty gospel.

If you will read you will see that Jesus was out of his home town when he said he had no where to lay his head. He wasn't saying he was homeless.

John 1:37-39King James Version (KJV)[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

So you see that Jesus did indeed have a home. Now if you want to dispute any of my other claims, I will be glad to prove you wrong there too.

RickyZ · Nov 16, 2015

shotgunner said:

Wow... you're joking of course... right?

Jesus was whipped and beaten to near death in His robes. I imagine the tattered bloodstained clothes were sought after because of their notoriety, not their opulence.

Angela53510 said:

Dah!

shotgunner said:

Cuckoo for coco puffs he is.

Lord, can I be a fly on the wall when You judge this one?

RickyZ · Nov 16, 2015

shotgunner said:

I had to come back and put this one into my unbelievable quotes file - giving you credit of course.

More power to you - but it's not the Holy Spirit's power that's to you.

Shotgunner... what an apt name, since you obviously shoot from the hip!

shotgunner · Nov 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

If you would read the scriptures without your preconceived doctrine blinding you. You could see that what I have stated is true. Instead you want to mock me and attack me personally. Is that what true Christians do? You are so full of yourself you can't see anything else. I really am sorry for you.

PeterJens · Nov 17, 2015

Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra shirt.
Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town.
Mark 6:8-9

Jesus's instructions to the disciples when sent out were to rely on the people you are visiting 100%. This appeared natural to them because Jesus relied on the hospitality of those he met. Their gift to the people was the good news, healing and casting out demons. This was not aquiring wealth and funding the mission in any shape at all. Do not even take an extra shirt. Appear as a person completely in need.

This is 100% the opposite of the prosperity gospel, which is full of flash cars, massive spectacular shows, support teams, advertising, publicity, films, books, support equipment. The emphasis is on bulk selling and central lectures.

Only those 100% projecting their own ideas on to Jesus's obvious simple approach would draw a conclusion Jesus was prosperous. Jesus's message was there was no need for wealth, just dependency on peoples support.

shotgunner said:

This shows how far WOF etc have strayed from Jesus's intent, and are walking in the flesh and desire for wealth.

know1 · Nov 17, 2015

Originally Posted by PeterJens

PeterJens said:

You speak for yourself as far as God not wanting you healed, but as for me and all who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, God wants us healed.
Show me in God's pure word where God does NOT WANT His children to be well.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Being sick or worse, dying, isn't having life and having it more abundantly.
Being poor, in lack, or in need, isn't having life and having it more abundantly.
All you have are a few instances where people in the bible didn't get what they asked for because they either lacked the knowledge and/or faith, and/or were walking in sin.
I have many many scripture verses to back up what God is saying here.
But you will ignore all of them, because God's word has no place in you concerning this subject.
Jesus came that we might have life more abundantly, everything that does not promote that, is not of Jesus.
On the other hand, everything that steals, kills, and destroys, is of the devil, the thief.
Did you lose a job?
Then according to the above verse, the devil stole your job, not God.
Did you or a relative get sick?
Then according to the above verse, the devil is the one who stole your health and/or the relative's health, not God.
Did someone you know get sick, or get shot, or have an accident of some kind, and die?
Then according to the above verse, the devil is the one that killed them, not God.
Did someone tell you that you couldn't do anything right and that you were stupid, and took away all your hopes and dreams, and the like?
Then according to the above verse, the devil destroyed those things in your life and in the lives of others, not God.
God is not in the business of stealing, killing, and destroying, the devil is.
And by telling others that God doesn't want them healed, is to say, God wants them to suffer, as though it is a good thing, that it might humble them and cause others to come to Christ and the like.
Did Jesus bring others into the kingdom causing them to believe through His sicknesses.
Is it possible for sickness to even attach itself to His body to cause Him to get sick?
I would think not.
If you then are in the body of Christ, how is it that you think that God wants sickness to abide in His Son's body? Which begs the question, why then would He want you or any other that abide in His Son to be sick?

THE LAW OF SOWING AND REAPING

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Aside from the usual plant seeds we sow, the bible says we can and do sow words, especially God's word. The fruit produced will determine the kind of tree it came from, for the law of Genesis says all things produce after its own kind. Be it plant, animal, fish, or people,natural or spiritual, all produce after its own kind.

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: Theseed [that is sown]is the word of God.
If man can sow the word of God, they can sow other words, both good or bad, for or against yourself and others.

Words are sown when you verbally speak with your mouth, and the words you sow will eventually bear fruit.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt:for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things:and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified,and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

What the verses above are saying is, whatever you believe in your heart and say out your mouth, shall CAUSE that which you said to be brought forth. A good man, out of the good things he deposited in his heart in abundance, and speaks the same, shall CAUSE that which he spoke to come to pass or shall cause it to be brought forth. And and evil man shall CAUSE what he deposited in his heart in abundance to be brought forth, by what comes out of his mouth.
For by the words that come out of your mouth, you will either receive good things or be justified, or bad things or be condemned.
So you should be able to see that your words are the determining factor on the outcome or what happens or what you get or don't get in life.
So what does God's will have to do with what you sow, in particular, the words that you sow?
For the law of sowing and reaping is what will determine what you reap, but God's will has nothing to do with what you sow. You can say anything you want regardless of the will of God, and whatever came out your mouth, you just sowed. And according to the same said law, what soever you sow, you will reap the same in return.
You sow discord, you reap discord.
You sow sickness and God doesn't want you healed, you will reap the same, in your life, you family's, in the simple's and the ignorant.
What ever words come out your mouth, you just sowed. Therefore, you WILL reap the same, for IT IS WRITTEN.

know1 · Nov 17, 2015

Originally Posted by PeterJens

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PeterJens said:

Let us be honest. We are the body of Christ, Jesus has purchased us by His blood to walk in grace and love.
We are suffering, emotionally, spiritually, physically. Despite our state we love the Lord.

We love the Lord because He is love itself and until we meet Him face to face, we will have these trials. We do not follow Him because these trails will be removed, but because he helps us overcome, transcend our situation in the Spirit.

Now if I am going to say the Lord gives us 100% healing and wealth which we just need to speak out, we are not walking in the Spirit. Either the gospel has failed to convey this reality or it is a lie and not from the Lord.

The healing Jesus brings is new birth, and the growth of the spirit born in Him, which transforms us as we grow. We are limited earthen pots who often have flaws and issues that need resolving, but that is the work of the Spirit through the word, His Spirit and our devotion. God does heal, as His grace desires and as we pray. He also uses everything for His purposes.

The sad reality is the prosperity gospel perpetuates itself because it attracts so much money and attention. It becomes like a parasite feeding off its own success and exploitation of those who fall for the lie. Often desperate people want a simple fix especially as all other options are slandered and rebuked as empty and false.

But as this thread and many others before it has shown, it is an empty and self defeating philosophy who make Christians out as self interested money grabbing greedy people.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

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Ask yourself this simple question.
Did Jesus have a 100 percent success rate in getting people healed?
You know absolutely nothing about the subject, because if you did you wouldn't be saying things like, just saying something once and it happens. The bible does not teach that all we have to do is say something once and poof, it magically appears, and neither have I said such.
Your reality is in the world of men, and the world you live in is what you will have. You live in the world of man or the natural world. Therefore, you will have everything this world has to offer.
The kingdom of heaven or to be in Christ Jesus, is to LIVE by and in the world of faith. In the world of faith, nothing is impossible to them that truly believe. And the kingdom of God rules the kingdom of men. Not just in setting up and tearing down kingdoms, but the laws of the spirit world rule and supersede the laws of this natural world.
You say I don't have the signs following me, and that I just live in a world of make believe, without know what I have experienced. You obviously haven't read many of the things I have written or, like most of the things I've written, you don't believe what I have said.
That is one of the reason's why I don't cast my pearls before the evil and hard hearted, carnally minded, unbelieving swine. I can't prove any of my testimonies, so I use scripture. The thing you say you believe, and yet, your words say otherwise.
The word of God says you will know them by their fruit. I have read what you have said, and the word of God is not in it. All you have, is the world you live in, which is not the kingdom of God.
The word of God says, "And the just shall live by faith".
How can you even claim to be just when you do not have the word of God in you. Therefore, you have no faith in God to do anything for you or others.
The world of a fish is in the water with the fish. Anything outside that water world doesn't exist to the fish, because the fish can't see it.
You are like that fish.

I have yet more verses for you to ignore.
You said you won't listen to anything because it doesn't deal with "the will of God" issue.
Can you show me where the will of God is in the words we speak? God's will goes out the window, because we can and do, for the most part, say what we want, when we want and feel like saying whatever comes to mind.
Those who use God's will as an excuse not to believe what is written, have to add what is not written to the scriptures, and equally have to ignore all that is written.
Both blessings and cursing come about in our lives due to what come out of our mouths. What we name and claim verbally, whether good or bad, for or against us and our loved ones, will determine what comes to pass in our lives.
Pro 12:13 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble.
Pro 12:14 A man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth: and the recompense of a man's hands shall be rendered unto him.

Pro 13:2 A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.
Pro 13:3 He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.

That is to say, he that watches what he says or what comes out of his mouth, like a wise man, will keep or preserve his life, but those who don't, like the fool, will have torment and destruction in his life.

Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied withthe fruit of his mouth; andwith the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
Pro 18:21 Death and life arein the power of the tongue:and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Isa 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

Psa 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things;so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

All the above verses have to do with the words that come out of your mouth. And these are just a few, there are many more.
Again, God creates what we say, whether it be for our good or to our detriment, it depends on the words we speak, or naming it and claiming it. It is a law of faith, and it works for good or evil, for or against.

Jas3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend notin word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

This too is saying that our tongue sets on fire the course of nature, or God creating the fruit of our lips, or death and life being in the power of the tongue.

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise,Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith,which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat1 2:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luk 6:45Agood man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth thatwhich is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heartbringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the hearthis mouth speaketh.

Luk24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

So here are even more verses that say you have what you say without the will of God making you say what He wants you to say. The will of God is, what you say, you will have.

The will of God is,
Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The choice is your, to obey or not to. To speak life and belief or death and doubt.

Since you obviously are not walking in the Spirit, for you are carnally minded and do not believe, I ask you, where is the will of God with your actions and your words of doubt?
We all see what is going on in this world and go through problems, but God is our hope, and we put our trust in Him and His word, Jesus, to deliver us out of ALL our troubles.
Psa 34:17 The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

PeterJens · Nov 17, 2015

know1 said:

There is only one area Jesus could not perform miracles, the area he grew up in. Look at all the miracles Jesus performed.
People saw the results straight away. I am suprised are you quoting as if you are saying something that is true.
"Get up and walk" Jesus said to the man on the mat. The woman who touched Jesus was healed straight away.

I am interested in knowing any case at all where Jesus said something in terms of healing did not happen straight away?
The only one is two versions of the fig tree. But even that it was within 1 day.

Now Jesus wants us in the Kingdom, people born again. This world is not heaven, it is not the place we will be eternally.
Even Lazaruses sister thought Lazarus would rise to heaven but not from the dead. But this miracle was done to show Jesus can bring people back from the dead, but Lazarus still died.

You want to create a super-human community, where eternity is on earth, or as some would say, the latter reign. But all those who first claimed this died. To date everyone who has talked about they are part of this, have died.

Now if I could see what you claim in scripture I might believe it, but I do not. Even worse you call me carnal, as unbeliever because I point out you are wrong and things are not happening as you claim. So you have nothing, literally.

Jesus emphasised love and good works, not the stuff you are pushing. So bad is it, you are calling me your enemy for preaching Jesus's gospel. So the fruit of your enthusiasm is to alienate the people of God. That alone should stop you. It is the relationships that matter more than your wonders or convictions about domination. The road you are treading leads to a a bad place, where you label people and reject normal behaviour and life. You claim some transcendent views, but in the end it is just personal glory, wealth and health which is flawed and empty.

"And the kingdom of God rules the kingdom of men." This is plainly not true.

Jesus's prayer "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a hope or desire but not dictating it.

It would be good for the Lords will to be followed here on earth, but to date all christian communities who have followed these principles has failed. It is obvious you want the theocracy, even when the history is failure.

It is also obvious you are a fanatic. Will you take up arms to enforce your ideas? People have tried this in the past, and we are facing ISIS who are doing this in their view of God. You will not prosper in your aim, at all.

Undeniably overwhelming and resounding proof of the truth of WOF, NICI, and BIGI.

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