Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[james57]

Compartments in Sheol/Hades etc., is all theory and conjecture with no biblical proof. If anything the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount with Jesus is evidence that when an OT saint died his soul went immediately into the presence of God/paradise.

There is biblical proof that when Moses and Elijah died they did not go to dwell with God in heaven( john 3:13)

 

[james57]

Ok we differ on how we read that scripture.

Jesus says this as you have quoted:

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And it is in this context:

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1st bringing or testifying of heavenly things. So no one has ascended to heaven except Jesus who has come down to testify of heaven. Only Jesus has done this, even though both Moses and Elijah had come down they did not testify to the world of heavenly things as Jesus did.

Second:

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

It is in the context of righteousness by faith through Jesus. I believe Jesus is using an idiomatic phrase by borrowing imagery from here:

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?


Jesus is our righteousness which we have by faith in Him, he came down that we need not go to heaven in order to find or have it.

Thus I don't think Jesus is saying no one else has ever gone to heaven as we are told Elijah did. But rather that no one else has come form heaven who testifies of heaven and also brings righteousness by faith.

You may not agree but I find this to be in harmony with other texts and fits the contextual arrangement. Jesus is speaking to a teacher of the law who would have made the connections.

That is why after alluding to Deut Jesus immediately alludes to Numbers 21 about Moses and righteousness by faith. It is contextually and logically compliant.

There is no Ot text that states anyone went to dwell with God in heaven when they left this earth. The only case I know of where it stated they went to heaven is Elijah. However Paul says he went to the third heaven so obviously there I more than one place referred to as heaven in the bible
Jesus is clear. No one had entered THE true heaven apart from he.
Therefore the text in colossians is confirmed.
Jesus was the first to rise from the dead never to die again so in everything he may have the supremacy

 

[james57]

I would like to point out that in John 3:13 Christ told Nicodemus that no man had ascended to heaven except the son of man. At that point in time the son of man had not yet ascended to heaven. So I think it's probably wise to consider that Jesus was talking about something altogether different than what you are trying to imply. Maybe, perhaps, Christ was referring to the new birth, which would allow man to ascend into heaven through the forerunner who ascended first, after he first descended from heaven.

I accept the text as written. Had Jesus not revealed himself to people in the OT? Had he not them on this earth?

But I am a believer that all rely on Christs shed blood to attain heaven, including those who died in the OT for none could be truly righteous under the law

 

[crossnote]

There is biblical proof that when Moses and Elijah died they did not go to dwell with God in heaven( john 3:13)

Very well could be speaking of the bodily resurrection, which would not preclude the souls of the righteous from being in His presence...eg,thief on the cross, "this day you'll be with me in Paradise".

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is biblical proof that when Moses and Elijah died they did not go to dwell with God in heaven( john 3:13)

That's not proof. That's based on your reading of the text.

 

[james57]

Very well could be speaking of the bodily resurrection, which would not preclude the souls of the righteous from being in His presence...eg,thief on the cross, "this day you'll be with me in Paradise".

When the thief died he went to paradise, not heaven
Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth-not heaven, and on the third day he would be raised to life.
When he had risen, he told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet returned to the father( in heaven)

 

[james57]

That's not proof. That's based on your reading of the text.

This is the text:

NO ONE has ever entered heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man john 3:13

If Jesus is correct he is the firstborn raised to eternal life, never to die again

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is biblical proof that when Moses and Elijah died they did not go to dwell with God in heaven( john 3:13)

There is biblical witness that GOD did not leave Moses' body to rot in the grave. Why would GOD otherwise be concerned about Moses' body?

But Michael the archangel, when he argued with the devil, disputing concerning the body of Moses, did not dare to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Jude 1:9​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is the text:

NO ONE has ever entered heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man john 3:13

If Jesus is correct he is the firstborn raised to eternal life, never to die again

That verse cannot mean what you say it means because the son of man had not ascended to heaven when that was spoken. There is a reason the term son of man is used.

 

[james57]

That verse cannot mean what you say it means because the son of man had not ascended to heaven when that was spoken. There is a reason the term son of man is used.

I'm not going to argue with you. If you can give me a verse of scripture that says anyone in ot times went to dwell with God in THE heaven I will continue, otherwise I wont.
I have given you the plain words of Jesus it is up to you if you accept them or not
If Jesus met OT saints you can say he came from heaven to meet the and then returned to heaven. But there is no need to even theologise that far. He mads a plain statement. I accept it

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not going to argue with you. If you can give me a verse of scripture that says anyone in ot times went to dwell with God in THE heaven I will continue, otherwise I wont.
I have given you the plain words of Jesus it is up to you if you accept them or not
If Jesus met OT saints you can say he came from heaven to meet the and then returned to heaven. But there is no need to even theologise that far. He mads a plain statement. I accept it

OK, I don't want to argue either. I enjoy exploring the possibilities. I do want to point out, though, that Jesus was not the son of man when he met OT saints.

 

[james57]

OK, I don't want to argue either. I enjoy exploring the possibilities. I do want to point out, though, that Jesus was not the son of man when he met OT saints.

But he was the one who had come from heaven, and the one who had cone from heaven met OT saints.
Let us just agree to disagree

 

[cgaviria]

You haven't met anyone yet who could impart the truth to you? How about Jesus Christ? He said that if anyone lacks wisdom, ask and He will give it. The Lord is faithful to do it.

You can spin a tale all day about your religious history but I won't let you dodge the fact that you came onto this site and immediately "concluded" to the world that Jesus isn't God and that America is the beast.

I have truth in me, as in, I have knowledge of God, clearly, but I do not have the Spirit in me as of yet. The Spirit is imparted by the laying of hands be one that has the Spirit himself. This is evident in Acts and other scriptures,

Then they placed the hands upon them, and they received [*2*spirit *1*holy]. (Acts 8:17 [ABP])

[*2*of immersions *1*of the teaching], and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and [*2*judgment *1*eternal]. (Hebrews 6:2 [ABP])

Do not neglect the [*2*in *3*you *1*favor]! which was given to you through prophecy, with laying on of the hands of the council of elders. (I Timothy 4:14 [ABP])

 

[james57]

I have truth in me, as in, I have knowledge of God, clearly, but I do not have the Spirit in me as of yet. The Spirit is imparted by the laying of hands be one that has the Spirit himself. This is evident in Acts and other scriptures,

If the holy spirit is not in you, you are not a christian (rom8:9)

And the holy spirit leads the christian into truth

 

[Tintin]

I haven't met a christian that does not sin because I don't believe that I've ever met anyone YET that truly has the spirit of God.

Yes, of course. Except yourself. Blah.

 

[cgaviria]

If the holy spirit is not in you, you are not a christian (rom8:9)

And the holy spirit leads the christian into truth

The holy spirit doesnt lead someone to the truth, the Father does, as it is said,

No one is able to come to me unless the father, the one having sent me, should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6:44 [ABP])

All who have received the spirit were first drawn to then receive it. I am admitting that I am drawn, but have not yet received this Spirit.

Do you have the Spirit? Here is one thing that is evident when you do have the Spirit,

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

 

[wolfwint]

Just because Jesus was created doesn't take away that he is indeed God, he has been chosen to be the very express image of the Father. As it is said:



And even Jesus said,



The father is greater than Jesus. And even so, although Jesus is the first born of creation, God has also engendered more sons of God. Anyone who has the spirit of God is also a son of God, being one with God, so its not really a trinity, its a family, as it shows:



And in Colossians we read:



Referring to Jesus as the firstborn of all creation, indicating he too was created.

Well Christian, your conclusion is not new. In the year 325 on the concil of nizaea, Arius proclaimed that Jesus was the firstborn, the first of creation. Today the Jehovas witniss are teaching this. This is a false doctrine, where is no place to discuss about it.

 

[Tintin]

I doubt his name is even Christian. He smells like the one who climbed up the beanstalk.

 

[cgaviria]

Well Christian, your conclusion is not new. In the year 325 on the concil of nizaea, Arius proclaimed that Jesus was the firstborn, the first of creation. Today the Jehovas witniss are teaching this. This is a false doctrine, where is no place to discuss about it.

I have a question for you. What things existed before God began speaking creation into existence?

 

[Tintin]

I have a question for you. What things existed before God began speaking creation into existence?

Absolutely nothing existed before God. He created everything. Time, space, matter. And then from matter He created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.