the rapture

[DP]

It appears to me that your pendulum swings far opposite of replacement theology in that to you,the church,the indisputable bride of Christ does not even exist.

Are you aware that a city is made up of citizens?

When the word speaks of people,many times it is "he".
Do you also apply your template there?
Are women excluded.

IS THE CHURCH THE BRIDE?

Rev.21 already showed you that the New Jerusalem is the Bride, and Wife of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever read Ezekiel 16? It doesn't appear that you have.

No, I don't adhere to Replacement theology, although I've been accused of it often, since I believe the ten lost tribes of Israel became the founders of the Western Christian nations according to Bible prophecy about them.

God's concept of Israel is the Church, and that means all His Church that believe on His Son Jesus Christ. It's men's doctrines, like from Darby and Judaizers, that try to create a separation between His Israel and His Church. So didn't you know that God's Israel is going to exist forever? Have you not read Isaiah 19 where God revealed Israel will be one third in His future Kingdom, what He called "Mine inheritance"?

 

[DP]

Then premillinealism is also wrong,if you are of the group that promotes "the ancients were right"

His doctrine introduced several dynamics.
Pretrib rapture was one.

All the pre-mill seminary label means is those who believe our Lord Jesus returns prior to the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That does not automatically imply He comes prior to the tribulation though.

The whole Christian Church had been post-trib, pre-mill for almost 1800 years because it doesn't take a lot of common sense to realize that God's Word shows the end of man's kingdoms with Satan in power over the world doesn't end until the day of Christ's return and then the immediate start of His "thousand years" reign over all the earth.

But as the time for the coming pseudo-Christ approaches nearer, the greater the time for his deceptions to take over the minds of unstable men, like Edward Irving and those associated with the visions of Margaret McDonald where the idea of a secret rapture began in 1830's Britain, and eventually with John Darby and Cyrus Scofield who took hold of the idea and pushed it upon the unsuspecting.

 

[DP]

DP,



I was discussing 2 Thes 2. Rev 11 is not connected to 2 Thes 2. They are totally different passages written by different authors who are discussing different things.

John is giving us a spiritual overview contrasting the saved and unsaved. Here in Rev 11:1 he says this:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

First, where is John when he writes this? He is in heaven. He was taken there in Rev 4:1. He describes the same scene in Rev 7:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.

The Temple of God is in heaven and those who worship there are the saved saints including the Great Multitude. He was then told not to measure/count the Gentiles or unsaved. They will not be in heaven, rather they never leave earth.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Today, what is in the former court where the old temple used to sit? The Al-Aqsa Mosque whose construction was completed in 688 AD. 688+1260 = 1948.

John goes on to discuss the 2 Witnesses which are the Eastern (Greek Orthodox) and Western (Roman Catholic) Churches and all of their offspring which are the other denominations which arose from these two churches. These 2 churches are in the process of being "killed" by Satan and he kills one by Egypt (ISLAM) and the other by Sodom (Wickedness such as Gay Rights).

Apostle John was not raptured with Jesus giving him His Revelation that was to be sent to the seven Churches (and us). Jesus gave him to see visions of things future by The Spirit to John's spirit while his flesh body was in prison on the Isle of Patmos.

And that vision of the temple in Rev.11:1-2 with those who worship inside it, and the outer court left to the Gentiles, and their treading the city for 42 months is a direct... link to this 42 months period He gave John to see later, in Rev.13:

Rev 13:4-7
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KJV

Rev.13 is that same time period as Rev.11 within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. That is tribulation timing just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet when Jesus returns. It's the latter half 1260 days period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9). That's also why we're shown there in Rev.11 God's two witnesses that appear there in Jerusalem to prophesy against the beast for those 1260 days.

All that is really simple if... one simply reads the Scripture as written while keeping in mind what our Lord Jesus showed John in the rest of His Revelation, and not listening to men's doctrines instead that confuse it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where do I say that? I'm saying John used OT symbolism which was given to him by the HS. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 1st century. They were his audience, not you and me. You have to understand the context.

Did not the HS tell Daniel what to write? How can Daniel tell us Alexander went across the surface of the whole earth when it wasn't the whole planet?

Hi PlainWord,

Let me ask you a question, when Isaiah gave the prophecy of Isa.7:14, was it given to the people of that time or was it to be fulfilled at a future date? Apply this to what your are claiming. Do you not think that God could not write the information of Revelation and the events of the seals, trumpets and bowls to pertain to that last generation? Why do attempt to limit God?

How can Daniel tell us Alexander went across the surface of the whole earth when it wasn't the whole planet?

Better yet, how about all the information that Daniel prophesied of that hasn't happened yet, which is synonymous with the information contained in Revelation?

 

[DP]

Where do I say that? I'm saying John used OT symbolism which was given to him by the HS. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 1st century. They were his audience, not you and me. You have to understand the context.

Did not the HS tell Daniel what to write? How can Daniel tell us Alexander went across the surface of the whole earth when it wasn't the whole planet?

That's where you are definitely wrong, listening to Preterist or Histocist doctrines of men instead. Christ's seven Messages to the seven Churches serve as Messages to seven anti-types. All those seven Messages are still in effect today all the way up to His second coming.

Same thing with the Book of Daniel about the "vile person" and "little horn" prophecies also; they are especially about the end of days, even as Daniel was told the main prophecies he was given, that they are sealed up for the end, and the wise in the end would understand.

 

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

I don't see us in the West fighting against the coming beast kingdom and "another beast" at all, not in the literal military sense, but only Christ's servants who are not deceived, and that only in the spiritual battle sense.

In Matt.24 and Mark 13, our Lord Jesus showed us the time of "great tribulation" will be a time of world peace. Paul showed the same idea in 1 Thess.5 when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety". Our Lord Jesus also showed in Rev.13 the dragon is given power over all nations and peoples on earth in that time.

The spiritual battle those in Christ will do in that time is shown in the Rev.11 Scripture with God's two witnesses that show up in Jerusalem to prophesy for 1260 days against the beast, and also issue out God's plagues upon them in that tribulation period of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe. It also mentions two candlesticks with mention of those two witnesses, and per Jesus the candlesticks represent the seven Churches (Rev.1). That's pointing to two of the seven candlesticks making a stand with God's two witnesses in that time.

An event many have missed from the signs Jesus gave (Mark 13), is about some of His elect being delivered up to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit against them in that future time. That is when the real event of Joel 2 that Apostle Peter quoted will be, the cloven tongue manifesting God's Witness against the beast and his kingdom that all nations will hear in their own languages. None will be able to deny that Testimony from God by The Holy Spirit speaking through His servants in that time. And that will begin the immediate downfall of the beast, with Christ's second coming soon to come at the end of that Testimony, on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

Thus the beast's defeat will first begin by The Holy Spirit speaking to all nations, and then Jesus' coming to literally defeat the great armies that come out of the northern quarters to try and destroy God's people off the earth in final.

In Daniel 2:39 it says:

And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

If we use the same kind of interpretation to this verse as you did for the Antichrist's kingdom then there's a problem. The Grecian kingdom did not "rule over all the earth" as the text states. Neither will the Antichrist's kingdom, or there would be different kinds of interpretations of "rule over all the earth" in the same Bible.

Apart from that I pretty much share the same view as you have. In the end, whoever the Antichrist and his kingdom might be, ALL evil religions and false teachings will disappear from the face of the earth and finally justice will prevail.

And the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

 

[popeye]

Rev.21 already showed you that the New Jerusalem is the Bride, and Wife of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever read Ezekiel 16? It doesn't appear that you have.

No, I don't adhere to Replacement theology, although I've been accused of it often, since I believe the ten lost tribes of Israel became the founders of the Western Christian nations according to Bible prophecy about them.

God's concept of Israel is the Church, and that means all His Church that believe on His Son Jesus Christ. It's men's doctrines, like from Darby and Judaizers, that try to create a separation between His Israel and His Church. So didn't you know that God's Israel is going to exist forever? Have you not read Isaiah 19 where God revealed Israel will be one third in His future Kingdom, what He called "Mine inheritance"?

1) you can not, for some strange reason, acknowledge that the church,the bride of rev 19 and elsewhere is in fact the bride.

2) I said your pendulum swings OPPOSITE replacement theology,in that to you,there is no bride outside a building.

3) "as a bride" would be a clue that the building would not be an actual bride.

 

[popeye]

All the pre-mill seminary label means is those who believe our Lord Jesus returns prior to the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That does not automatically imply He comes prior to the tribulation though.

The whole Christian Church had been post-trib, pre-mill for almost 1800 years because it doesn't take a lot of common sense to realize that God's Word shows the end of man's kingdoms with Satan in power over the world doesn't end until the day of Christ's return and then the immediate start of His "thousand years" reign over all the earth.

But as the time for the coming pseudo-Christ approaches nearer, the greater the time for his deceptions to take over the minds of unstable men, like Edward Irving and those associated with the visions of Margaret McDonald where the idea of a secret rapture began in 1830's Britain, and eventually with John Darby and Cyrus Scofield who took hold of the idea and pushed it upon the unsuspecting.

Margaret was post trib. She believed the church needed the cleansing of the GT,to be 'worthy'

You guys own that one. So if she is off,well you guys are too.

Your church fathers that you find infallable were for the most part amillennial.(not post as I previously stated)

And where did the doctrine of purgatory originate? your own church fathers.

 

[DP]

In Daniel 2:39 it says:

And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

If we use the same kind of interpretation to this verse as you did for the Antichrist's kingdom then there's a problem. The Grecian kingdom did not "rule over all the earth" as the text states. Neither will the Antichrist's kingdom, or there would be different kinds of interpretations of "rule over all the earth" in the same Bible.

Apart from that I pretty much share the same view as you have. In the end, whoever the Antichrist and his kingdom might be, ALL evil religions and false teachings will disappear from the face of the earth and finally justice will prevail.

And the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

If you look closer at Dan.2:32-45, especially the 35th and 45th verses, you should notice that there's actually 5 beast kingdoms there. The one of Dan.2:41 is actually the 5th one, the feet of ten toes of part iron and clay. That's the final one of Rev.13.

Because Dan.2:35 shows all... the pieces together are broken at the same time, when the stone smites them, it is pointing to all the previous beast kingdoms existing with the last one of ten toes. There's another Message God is giving with those pieces. Notice the heaviest material pieces are at the top, with the weakest at the bottom with feet of part iron mixed with clay.

 

[DP]

Margaret was post trib. She believed the church needed the cleansing of the GT,to be 'worthy'

You guys own that one. So if she is off,well you guys are too.

Your church fathers that you find infallable were for the most part amillennial.(not post as I previously stated)

And where did the doctrine of purgatory originate? your own church fathers.

Read Dave MacPhearson's research, he reproduced the letter of what she said when she was sick, and clergy of the day that had gathered around her misinterpreted it. She haphazardly quoted verses out of The Bible which those clergy then came up with a pre-trib rapture mindset.

 

[popeye]

Read Dave MacPhearson's research, he reproduced the letter of what she said when she was sick, and clergy of the day that had gathered around her misinterpreted it. She haphazardly quoted verses out of The Bible which those clergy then came up with a pre-trib rapture mindset.

Uh no.
The dream was pretrib but ,like postribs do,they reason the thing humanly to incorporate extra biblical dynamics like a non existent GT cleansing.

That McDonald trophy is a fail big time.
Your teachers never read it.
Then we finally did,pointed out the farce to you guys and STILL,some of you try that desperation .

All that mess is to take the debate OUTSIDE The WORD.

SEE THAT? See how you need all that to desperately try to discredit us?

Why? Why go extra biblical?

Because you can not make a biblical case.

 

[popeye]

Another postrib farce is Ken Peters.

The prophecy club had him give his dream which depicted a pretrb Resurrection.

It was so comical watching him tell it and THEY NEVER CAUGHT IT.

Why?

Because you guys are"tribulation centered". It is all you see.

It is on you tube,and now they edited that resurrection part out of the dream.

Twisted that mans dream

 

[popeye]

One major flaw with the rapture doctrine is that of putting into Pauls references to it something that is not there. That something is a 'secret return of Christ'. Nowhere does he say that Christ will return secretly. He says that believers will be changed at the last trump. The whole doctrine concerning the rapture and the second coming has been distorted by this teaching. One only has to mention the rapture and a whole baggage of false teaching associated with it comes tumbling out
making the subject difficult to discuss rationally. It may come as a surprise to some that it is a very small number of Christians that believe in the pre trib teaching both now and in the past.

You are a guest now?

Were you raptured?

 

[DP]

Tanach is correct. The Pre-trib Rapture doctors have added a secret rapture to Apostle's Paul's words and our Lord Jesus' Own Words where there is no such mention.

The Pre-trib Rapture doctors are like today's news media, broadcasting the exact same junk scripted behind the scenes by charlatans. Just as many gullible people still watch those propagandist news sites, likewise many listen and heed those Pre-trib Rapture doctors instead of listening to God in His Word, and that to their own destruction.

Our Lord Jesus is looking for real Christian soldiers to make a stand for Him with the fire of The Holy Spirit in the last days, not a bunch that want to go AWOL seeking to escape the battle before it has even started!

 

[Wall]

Another postrib farce is Ken Peters.

The prophecy club had him give his dream which depicted a pretrb Resurrection.

It was so comical watching ....

Have u ever seen Jack Van Impe? If youd like a good belly laugh hes your guy

 

[pottersclay]

Your very entertaining dp I hope you realize the Lord does hold you accountable for your witness and attitude. As for me I am a pre tribe sort of saint abiding in the promise of God that we are not appointed to wrath.
If you think for a moment you can stand firm in the tribulation then you'd should read those scriptures again.
Their is only one that does battle that is Jesus with the sword of his mouth.
The saints (or bride) return with jesus this is the second coming, they return after the wedding which is after the rapture. But I'm sure you've covered that. All your post seem to line up with the old custom Jewish wedding, (yeah right) sure it does.

 

[popeye]

Have u ever seen Jack Van Impe? If youd like a good belly laugh hes your guy

He is pretty animated.

Colorful pple on both sides.

Doesn't bother me. I mention a few postrib quacks when you guys take the debate down that rabbit trail. I never initiate extra biblical debate. You guys wear that road out after you get worked over by the word of God.

I don't blame you guys really. It must be frustrating and it shows with the miscues of mcdonald,and stuff like "the wicked are always gathered first" (without any examples of such a thing ever happening)

 

[popeye]

btw, ken peters seems genuine. It was the postrib hacks that failed to even see his dream depicted a pretrib rapture.(too funny).

Then the utube vids edited the dead raising pretrib out of his sermon.

Hilarious. Simply hilarious.

 

[ukok102nak]

Amos: 5. 16. Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the Lord, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.
17. And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the LORD.
18. Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

:smoke: we are not telling this to make the people unfaithful to their beliefs
but to warn everyone that if this day would come
everyone wiil be ready especially to those people who has a different faiths
inside their own family like most of oyr fellows whose families were still beyond
the traditions of different religions . . . ..

and it is saddest part of our life (if we are destined to experienced it)
if we learn that we cannot do anything for our loveones when that time comes . ...
:read:
Ezekiel: 14. 14. Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

: : would anyone be so greatful and ful of joy at the same time if they learn
that its only them who has a pure of heart and soul will be saved at that time
and all those who remains shall be tested from the things that even us cant do
anything when everything shall done according to
what is written
:read:
Matthew: 24. 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

God bless us all always


:ty:

 

[PlainWord]

Valiant,

No the Bible is Christ-centric. Thus everything revolves around him. That is why the true Israel is made up of believers in the Messiah. And that is why God's judgments are not restricted to the Middle East.

Of course God's judgments are not restricted to the Middle East, but His prophesies are in terms of the locations of clearly stated judgments.

Most of the world is being affected by radical Islam. So what? But I can agree that America is not in mind in prophecies.

Exactly!! So who do you think the Harlot Mystery Babylon is if not Islam? Islam fits every single description.

LOL couldn't God spell Mecca? Since when has it been 'a great city'?

That would take the fun out of it, wouldn't it? Besides, God doesn't want everyone to know and He clearly states this:

Revelation 17:9

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

I am giving you this knowledge. By very definition, Mystery Babylon is the Mother of all False religions. To me, Mother implies oldest or biggest false religion. Islam is both if you understand its roots. It's Satan's chosen dominant false religion as it mimics Christianity the closest. It's symbols, the moon and star, were present in every past BEAST KINGDOM from Egypt, to Babylon, to Rome and to the Ottoman Empire. The crescent moon tops every mosque in the world. What does the Bible say about worshiping heavenly bodies? The below clue ties perfectly to Islam?

Deuteronomy 4:19 (NKJV)


[SUP]19 [/SUP]And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.


Ask yourself this, who were the peoples which surrounded Israel from their inception until today? Which evil empires enslaved Israel throughout history? What is the heritage of these Empires back then and today?

As for Mecca not fitting the description of a "GREAT CITY" have you considered that your definition and God's may be different. You consider a Great City to be one with a large population, or rich in culture and heritage or powerful or important on a Global scale. Or perhaps you think a Great City is a good city? We know in this case that the City associated with Mystery Babylon False religion is Great in a bad way for it is the spiritual capitol of the false religion.

God cares more about who worships Him and who instead worships other god(s). To Muslims, Mecca is the Greatest City on Earth. The swarm there by the millions each year and are required to go to Mecca for pilgrimage at least once in their lifetimes. No other major religion has this requirement.

In the center of Mecca is the Temple to Allah called the Kaaba Stone. It is a black meteor fallen from the sky. The Kaaba Stone is literally placed as the Corner Stone of Allah's temple. Who is our Chief Corner Stone? What's is Islam's Chief Corner Stone? What is the color of the stone that our names are to be written upon?

Revelation 2:17

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

That happened 2500 years ago.

Nope. Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world. At no time was it wiped out and left completely uninhabited. This from Wikipedia:

Damascus is often claimed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, and evidence exists of a settlement in the wider Barada basin dating back to 9000 BC.

Islam is the Big pink elephant in the room and very few Christians recognize it as Mystery Babylon even though it beheads, mimics Christianity, has control over 1/4 of the world and kills those who will not convert to it. It's time for us as Christians to wake up and at least acknowledge this.