Hyper grace

Sirk · Nov 30, 2015

I can understand it from this perspective but still. All who are thirsty are welcome to come and drink from Jesus....they only need the faith of a mustard seed. I just think when to much focus is on doctrine, people fall thru the cracks. You can't make a person get it....they have to get it on their own....and sometimes...certain people require a whole lot of exposure to finally get it.

Some on here lack the ability to not speak from a place of pride and verbally vomit all over a tender heart.

crossnote · Nov 30, 2015

Sirk said:

I guess I was thinking in terms of doctrine and not people by agreeing "guilty until proven innocent". Of course when it comes to people and their character it's reversed.

Sirk · Nov 30, 2015

crossnote said:

I think that a person who is saved gets that none of us are worthy of anything but hell. I'm no better than the person who comes to church and then immediately goes back to the difficult circumstances that they are in...no matter what they are. It's not as easy out there as giving people one shot and then throwing them out with the trash. I so often feel that this is peoples attitudes towards others who are lost and crying out to be found.

james57 · Nov 30, 2015

Stephen63 said:

As you haven't specifically stated the doctrine you are referring to, I imagine it must be the doctrine Jesus died for all your sins past, present and future.
Is there clear biblical support of such a belief?.

Sin is the transgression of the law. 1john 3:4

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law, rather through the law bw become conscious of sin rom3:20

If you are not declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law, you are not righteous in Gods sight by not committing sin, it means the same thing. The only way this can be true is if Jesus died for all your sin, past, present and future

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom 10:4

If Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness a person cannot be made unrighteous in Gods sight for their imperfections where the law is concerned, such a thing is not possible is it. Your imperfections concerning the law is your sin. This can only be true if Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary past, present and future.

If a christian has a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22) they cannot be made unrighteous in Gods sight for their failure to obey the law, failure to obey the law is sin

A minister preached a sermon on this subject with the texts 1john3:4&rom3:20-23. A man listened to the sermon 250 times, so dumbfounded was he to learn the truth he did

crossnote · Nov 30, 2015

Stephen63 said:

Sirk said:

The above was the post I responded to, I'm not sure how it went from doctrine to people.

VioletReigns · Nov 30, 2015

This one thing we can do every single day... we can forget what's behind and press on!!!

And we can rejoice right now that our names are written in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!! GLORY TO GOD!! THANK YOU, LORD JESUS!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!!!! \

/

Sirk · Nov 30, 2015

crossnote said:

I guess I'm not sure how there is a distinction between the bible...it's application to life and people.

crossnote · Nov 30, 2015

Sirk said:

Well when speaking of false doctrine names do not have to be mentioned.
When it comes to Hyper Grace I find new believers have the opposite problem.
It is only when we get too comfy with God we lose that healthy fear of God and call it legalism.

Sirk · Nov 30, 2015

crossnote said:

I see. It's interesting how old sins fade away and new sins are revealed as we age.

james57 · Nov 30, 2015

ladylynn said:

You have perfectly summed up the truth. Christianity needs to get back to its roots, to a tine before the scholar and theologian came along and weakened the message, it needs to get back to the message that changed the worst of sinners into the greatest preacher of grace this world has ever seen. Then the majority of churches wont be half empty, they would all be packed out.
I was raised in a church that said it stood full square on the bible, it believed in the gifts of the holy spirit for today, yet it was the most legalistic church I ever went to. I tried at a young age to be a christian the same way Paul the Pharisee had tried to attain heaven and i got the same result( rom7:7-11)

james57 · Nov 30, 2015

Stephen63 said:

I have some questions about this subject, & while doing so I'll be trying to be as neutral as I can.

1. I see a discussion about possibly one of the newest doctrines to be accepted by the majority, or simply a large amount of the modern church. Is this true?

2. I hear that one of the proponents of this doctrine is Joseph Prince, one of the newest mainstream televangelists. Is this true?

3. Why the sudden turning to this doctrine? Does it have clear, scriptural backing for it?

4. A new doctrine written about by a new/newer televangelist..... and this belief hasn't ever been "discovered" before in the past or in early church history?

5. IF we're the Bereans we'd like to think we are, with the current info, tell me..... HOW did this "new theology" get as far as it did without major scriptural scrutiny?

6. Just how important is it that we "prove" every doctrine we believe?

7. Can I start a new doctrine tomorrow? Am I being sarcastic? You bet I am! We are in the last days, possibly the last of the last days, & we are to expect false doctrines to pop up like dandelions in our yards. Yet the modern church swallows up this without alarm or investigation? While not trying to say something is totally wrong here, it seem to me there's not much of anyone doing a lot of right about this topic in the church.

It doesn't seem that long ago that most mainstream denominations wouldn't have touched this doctrine with a ten foot pole simply because they were so cautious about such things. Now, those same denominations give every doctrine under the sun an equal opportunity against their tried & proven beliefs.

The Great Falling Away has already started. Are we still as conservative/old school with doctrine as we'd like to believe, or are we lying to ourselves? IMO, that might be the difference between being on the broad way or the narrow way. What do you think?

I should have added to my previous post. If the new covenant only hinged on one core fact, the christian would have a licence to sin under it, but it doesn't, it hinges on TWO core facts

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the lord
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds( because this has happened)
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

You get the second part only because the first part has taken place. The first part cuts out the licence to sin.

ladylynn · Nov 30, 2015

crossnote said:

The whole hyper-grace phrase had to have been invented by someone who didn't understand grace. If anything, Christians need to know God as Father and live as sons and daughters It's about relationship and children who are loved by their Father go to Him with confidence and not fear. Perfect love casts out fear. Love constrains us., not fear.

A proper relationship with the Lord began for me only when I was able to rest in His love for me. Grace has taught me this., not law., and certainly not a fearful expectation of judgment. (There is NO rest in that) For we certainly have been forgiven all our sins past, present and future else we could not have boldness to come before Him. Jesus made all this possible.

We have been forgiven and when we do sin, we go before Him knowing we go clothed in the gift of righteousness.,totally paid for forgiveness, no longer 'doing' penance but instead thanking Him because we see our weak flesh and how much we need His grace. Communion is a time to remember what Jesus did for us and be thankful to and for Him. The church has made communion a time of thinking of our sins and lawless deeds when the Bible says our sins and our lawless deeds He remembers no more. And for us to rejoice in Christ and remember with thanksgiving what Jesus did until He returns. Somehow the church under law keeps going back to our sin when Jesus has gotten rid of our sin as far as the east is from the west. The law keeps dragging it out and putting it between us and God. The law no longer applies to us., we are no longer under law but under grace.

The enmity is GONE., nothing between any more. Dragging our sins back into the picture IS legalism.

ladylynn · Nov 30, 2015

kohelet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So glad to see you on the forums!!!!!!

PeterJens · Nov 30, 2015

ladylynn said:

Language matters. Love matters.
It is easy to dishonour our Lord, to take what he has said and miss the point, because the core ingredient is our hearts.

If you are not walking in righteousness there is a problem. The law does not justify us, but it helps identifying failure.
If you are in grace, knowing the depths of love the Lord has for you, in your innermost being, where only you go, there is no problem accepting rebuke, accepting need, accepting change.

What the apostles are saying time and again, people claim so much in Jesus, yet show so little, so the work must have failed.

Do you know in your life the meaning of the words, to love from your heart?
Do you know the meaning of living with love on your sleeve? Can you relate to what is in your heart is what you show to other people, not the filtered version, through layers of preparation or thought?

Unfortunately the people who most oppose these realities are from the Hyper grace groups. But this is what the gospel good news is offering, reality where you do love from your whole being, where defence becomes less important to seeing people as they really are, with all their faults and failings, but still worthy of being loved.

If anyone tries to become like this through obedience to rules they will always fail, because it can only be achieved through the cross and that love of Jesus transforming you. It can take a long time, and I mean a life-time.

The problem, as christians, we all face, is we so easily accept we have arrived intellectually while our hearts are still wrapped up in unhealthy denial of emotional failure and need. C S Lewis the great divorce sums up a lot of these realities.

I was accused by someone of careful choosing of words but what they did not understand this is who I am, not an abstract idea. To those who have not walked this path, it appears like an impossible dream, but Jesus promises this reality by the resurrection.

So I do not believe the Hyper grace people, because they do not preach from the heart or recognise the failure in sinful behaviour, or the legalists, if they do not recognise the true driver of righteousness, love and grace.

crossnote · Nov 30, 2015

ladylynn said:

The whole hyper-grace phrase had to have been invented by someone who didn't understand grace. If anything, Christians need to know God as Father and live as sons and daughters It's about relationship and children who are loved by their Father go to Him with confidence and not fear. Perfect love casts out fear. Love constrains us., not fear.

A proper relationship with the Lord began for me only when I was able to rest in His love for me. Grace has taught me this., not law., and certainly not a fearful expectation of judgment. (There is NO rest in that) For we certainly have been forgiven all our sins past, present and future else we could not have boldness to come before Him. Jesus made all this possible.

We have been forgiven and when we do sin, we go before Him knowing we go clothed in the gift of righteousness.,totally paid for forgiveness, no longer 'doing' penance but instead thanking Him because we see our weak flesh and how much we need His grace. Communion is a time to remember what Jesus did for us and be thankful to and for Him. The church has made communion a time of thinking of our sins and lawless deeds when the Bible says our sins and our lawless deeds He remembers no more. And for us to rejoice in Christ and remember with thanksgiving what Jesus did until He returns. Somehow the church under law keeps going back to our sin when Jesus has gotten rid of our sin as far as the east is from the west. The law keeps dragging it out and putting it between us and God. The law no longer applies to us., we are no longer under law but under grace.

The enmity is GONE., nothing between any more. Dragging our sins back into the picture IS legalism.

God still takes His obstinate children to the woodshed.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 30, 2015

Grace means unmerited or unearned favor (Something given which was not earned)

So how can grace be any less earned than it already is, or more for that matter.

These grace/works threads are getting old, We have to get our biases, and our selves out of the picture, and just interpret the word.

ladylynn · Nov 30, 2015

crossnote said:

You know... I keep hearing adult Christians say that about a woodshed trip., and somehow they think its cute or humbling or something. I have not had to "go to the woodshed" I totally fell out of the tree and onto the woodshed when God showed me He loved me. It took losing my whole life to find it and what I found is God loved me. That simple yet profound truth that Jesus loves us each individually. And He has written a new law on our hearts that we love one another as He has loved us.

Grace teaches to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly righteously and godly in this present age.... It's not being afraid to be sent to a woodshed that keeps me from ungodliness, it's the love and grace of God. I read no words about God having a "woodshed" where He sends His children to get the switch in the Bible. But I do read about His love and grace., how grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

How the Good Shepherd leads the sheep and NEVER breaks their legs or beats them. I read of a Good Shepherd who Leads His sheep and NEVER Drives them. The sheep are lead and they follow. The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want. Amen.

Grace777x70 · Nov 30, 2015

The term "Hyper-grace" is actually a biblical term.

Paul says Romans 5:20 (NASB)
[SUP] [/SUP] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

In greek the word "abounded all the more" is "hupereperisseusen" from which we get the English word "hyper". For people to talk about hyper-grace in a negative way is diminishing the work of our Lord Jesus.

Now, I understand there are some people who use the term "grace" to say that they can live whatever lifestyle they want. The truth is that they are not receiving grace ( which is Jesus ) because Rom 6:14 says that sin shall not have dominion over you because you are not law but grace. People who use grace to say they can sin all they want are not living or receiving grace.

Paul said 3 times " should we sin so that grace may abound? Of course not!" If the gospel we hear does not beg the question - " What? Are you saying we can sin all we want?" - We have not heard the gospel as Paul preached it.

The difference between the legalistic ( law-keeping ) mindset and the grace-based mindset I believe is the core of this discussion. Both mindsets believe what the fruit looks like as we are under the grace of God. The difference is how the fruit is produced in our lives. The legalistic mindset says " Stop sinning". The grace-based mindset says " Receive the grace of God and sin will not have dominion over you."

The legalistic law-based mindset says " Stop sinning and we will not condemn you. " Jesus says " I do not condemn you, now go and sin no more. " This acceptance grace of no condemnation gives life to us so that we do not have to continue in sin.

When we believe the gospel of grace it imparts the life of Christ inside of us to produce fruit. The legalistic mindset says "you do this" whereas the grace-based mindset says "Christ did it for you already". The legalistic mindset says " Be holy!" and you will be holy ( which is works based ). Grace-based mindset says " Be holy" because Christ has already made you holy. It is a matter of "being" who we already are in Christ. As we "see" who Jesus is - we become like Him in our outer behavior as 2 Cor. 3:18 states.

The mindset that says that "hyper-grace" is a license to sin does not know what grace is.

Let us not cheapen the awesome work of love that our Lord did for us!

I for one believe in hyper-grace and thank God for the awesome love that He has for us shown in the finished work of our Lord Jesus! What a mighty salvation we have in Him!!!

crossnote · Nov 30, 2015

ladylynn said:

It's the love and grace of God that sends those He loves to the woodshed in the first place.
It's not cute, it's God's Word.
I do wonder about those who claim they never been there...

Hebrews 12:5-11 KJVS
[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: [6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? [8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us , and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Grace777x70 · Nov 30, 2015

I agree with you 100%!

We could rewrite the start of Psalm 23.

"The Lord is my shepherd, He breaketh my legs"

Just kidding! The discipline/correction of the Lord is done through His word. The word for discipline/correction is the word for "child-training" in the original language.

ladylynn said:

You know... I keep hearing adult Christians say that about a woodshed trip., and somehow they think its cute or humbling or something. I have not had to "go to the woodshed" I totally fell out of the tree and onto the woodshed when God showed me He loved me. It took losing my whole life to find it and what I found is God loved me. That simple yet profound truth that Jesus loves us each individually. And He has written a new law on our hearts that we love one another as He has loved us.

Grace teaches to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly righteously and godly in this present age.... It's not being afraid to be sent to a woodshed that keeps me from ungodliness, it's the love and grace of God. I read no words about God having a "woodshed" where He sends His children to get the switch in the Bible. But I do read about His love and grace., how grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

How the Good Shepherd leads the sheep and NEVER breaks their legs or beats them. I read of a Good Shepherd who Leads His sheep and NEVER Drives them. The sheep are lead and they follow. The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want. Amen.

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