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As I continue to claim according to scripture, those in white robes which no man can count are not the church and are never referred to as the church, but always as "Saints." Whereas in chapters one through three, only the word "church" is used to describe believers and you never see the word "saints" in those chapters. With this God is making a distinction here. Believers from chapter 4 onward are always referred to as "Saints" and never as the "church." These great tribulation saints will be people who will become believers after the church been removed and will be here on earth during that last seven years. The church period ends at Christ's appearing to gather us from the earth. Those believers on earth afterwards are the great tribulation saints.
The reason is because, there is a difference between persecution which comes from the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, opposed to the coming wrath which will be initiated directly by God. Since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all the wrath of God, then the church cannot be here, for we are not appointed to suffer his wrath.
The reason is because, there is a difference between persecution which comes from the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, opposed to the coming wrath which will be initiated directly by God. Since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all the wrath of God, then the church cannot be here, for we are not appointed to suffer his wrath.
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P
Thus the correct order of events:
1. 42 months of the 8th BEAST (Ottoman Empire back to life)
- THIS MAY HAVE STARTED on June 29, 2014
2. MAN of SIN appears and does miracles claiming to be above all called God
3. Sets up ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
4. All MUSLIMS unite under RADICAL ISLAM
5. ALMOST ALL OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD IS KILLED
6. MECCA destroyed and with it normal ISLAM (Mystery Babylon)
7. ISRAEL ATTACKED and brought to brink of destruction
8. ALL MUSLIMS (TARES) are KILLED (1/3 of the world population) at 6th Trumpet
9. CHRIST RETURNS
10. SATAN IS BOUND
11. SAINTS are Gathered
12. CHRIST REIGNS 1,000 years
13. SATAN Released
14. SATAN deceives world again
15. SATAN attacks ISRAEL again
16. God sends fire down and consumes them all
17. GOD RETURNS
18. RAPTURE of those Saints still Alive and Remaining
19. Heaven and Earth consumed
20. GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT
21. New Heaven and EARTH
This is how I see it anyway.
look at his no 12,then 18
I'm pretty sure I stated that these are part of the wrath of God.
Agreed, the scripture does not lie. But the scripture also does not tell us that the previous seals are part of the wrath of God. You assume this. It is dangerous to assume. I have an explanation for the first 5 seals which fits perfectly into what I have been saying about Babylon and the final beast (SEA). You've offered no explanation.
You also assume that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. There is strong evidence which suggests that the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl are indeed related and that the Lord returns at the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl.
There is nothing in the Word which states this. It is another assumption you make based on your theory and incorrect thinking that the seals mark the start of the GT which is also the Wrath of God. These theories are wrong. The GT is the Wrath of Satan and God's wrath immediately follows the GT and precedes the return of Christ. The first seal was opened around 632 AD and describes Mohammad's conquests and establishment of Islam.
That isn't proof of wrath. Opening a seal is akin to revealing what is written inside. It is not akin to taking an active part in the events. If you wrote a scroll and sealed it and gave it to me and I started opening it, does it mean that I wrote the scroll or was responsible for the contents of the scroll?
Nothing could be further from the truth!! You are 1000% wrong and it is this thinking that has skewed the rest of your thinking. The Great Tribulation begins when the Abomination of Desolation is seen as we are clearly told in Mat 24.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation...For then there will be great tribulation.
The A of D is not set up by God. It is set up by Satan. Those in Judea are not fleeing God, they are fleeing Satan's evil. We are then told that this tribulation will be:
such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. This ties to Dan 12:
And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.
We are then told in Mat 24:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
God does not need to shorten His own days. He is shortening Satan's days of wrath. God is not responsible for false prophets and Christs, Satan is.
With comments like the above, I don't think it possible to help you. Your thinking is beyond twisted. God's wrath of course if not for the church. The GM is the Church. There is no such thing as a Tribulation Saint. Such a concept, pre-trib Saint vs. Trib Saint is not taught or found in the Bible. It is an invention of Pre-trib Rapture doctrine which is also false. All believers who are alive enter the GT which is Satan's wrath. God's wrath comes after it as we are told in Mat 24:29-31. If you look up how the word Tribulation is used in the Bible, you will find it used 32 times (NKJV) 31 of those times its bad people harming good people. The lone exception comes in 2 Thes 1 where God is repaying those who were causing Tribulation against His people.
So God killed the Saints shown in the 5th seal? God also is the King of the Bottomless Pit shown at the 5th Trumpet? You better go back to the drawing board if you think that.
Interesting you use this passage from Rev 16 because it destroys your pre-trib theory. Every pre-tribber I ever met takes the below passage from Mat 24 and places it pre-trib when you just showed that it belongs post-trib. The Second Coming is as a Thief. There is no earlier Rapture return.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. [SUP]43 [/SUP]But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. [SUP]44 [/SUP]Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Another false assumption in a long line of false assumptions my dear brother. The passage does not tell us that 1/4 of the world is killed. Please read it again!!
And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill...
He has power over a 1/4 of the earth to kill using various means. It does not say he kills all 1/4 of the earth. The "them" mentioned is the Beast of the Sea which is an Islamic Extremist group from the North (of Israel).
What religion makes up 1/4 of the world? The horse is not pale. Rather it is green. The Greek word is Chloros, the same word used to describe the trees and grass of Rev 8. Green is the official color of Islam and it represents Paradise which is where they think they go when they die waging their Jihad. Instead we are told they go to Hades. We are in this seal right now. It was opened on June 29, 2014. We haven't seen nothing yet in terms of the killing they will do to Muslims who won't follow them and to Christians whom they behead or kill wherever they can.
Wrong on your view of the seals. The first seal is not the AntiChrist but is rather Mohammad, the false prophet. He rode a white "horse" more like a donkey/mule, named al-Buraq (as in Barrack like Obama) from Mecca to Jerusalem which is 666 nautical miles in distance. He claimed to have been on the Temple Mount (future sight of the Dome of the Rock 688 AD) then flew to Heaven. This is called Mohammad's night journey and is the reason why 1.5 billion Muslims pray 5 times a day. Study this event. Here is an excerpt:
Surah 17.1 Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
Mohammed's one-night journey is said to have covered the 766 miles from Mecca to Jerusalem, included a leg up to heaven and a return to Mecca by morning, and is described in part as follows:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309: It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.
Enough for now...
Agreed, the scripture does not lie. But the scripture also does not tell us that the previous seals are part of the wrath of God. You assume this. It is dangerous to assume. I have an explanation for the first 5 seals which fits perfectly into what I have been saying about Babylon and the final beast (SEA). You've offered no explanation.
You also assume that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. There is strong evidence which suggests that the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl are indeed related and that the Lord returns at the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl.
There is nothing in the Word which states this. It is another assumption you make based on your theory and incorrect thinking that the seals mark the start of the GT which is also the Wrath of God. These theories are wrong. The GT is the Wrath of Satan and God's wrath immediately follows the GT and precedes the return of Christ. The first seal was opened around 632 AD and describes Mohammad's conquests and establishment of Islam.
That isn't proof of wrath. Opening a seal is akin to revealing what is written inside. It is not akin to taking an active part in the events. If you wrote a scroll and sealed it and gave it to me and I started opening it, does it mean that I wrote the scroll or was responsible for the contents of the scroll?
Nothing could be further from the truth!! You are 1000% wrong and it is this thinking that has skewed the rest of your thinking. The Great Tribulation begins when the Abomination of Desolation is seen as we are clearly told in Mat 24.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation...For then there will be great tribulation.
The A of D is not set up by God. It is set up by Satan. Those in Judea are not fleeing God, they are fleeing Satan's evil. We are then told that this tribulation will be:
such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. This ties to Dan 12:
And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.
We are then told in Mat 24:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
God does not need to shorten His own days. He is shortening Satan's days of wrath. God is not responsible for false prophets and Christs, Satan is.
With comments like the above, I don't think it possible to help you. Your thinking is beyond twisted. God's wrath of course if not for the church. The GM is the Church. There is no such thing as a Tribulation Saint. Such a concept, pre-trib Saint vs. Trib Saint is not taught or found in the Bible. It is an invention of Pre-trib Rapture doctrine which is also false. All believers who are alive enter the GT which is Satan's wrath. God's wrath comes after it as we are told in Mat 24:29-31. If you look up how the word Tribulation is used in the Bible, you will find it used 32 times (NKJV) 31 of those times its bad people harming good people. The lone exception comes in 2 Thes 1 where God is repaying those who were causing Tribulation against His people.
So God killed the Saints shown in the 5th seal? God also is the King of the Bottomless Pit shown at the 5th Trumpet? You better go back to the drawing board if you think that.
Interesting you use this passage from Rev 16 because it destroys your pre-trib theory. Every pre-tribber I ever met takes the below passage from Mat 24 and places it pre-trib when you just showed that it belongs post-trib. The Second Coming is as a Thief. There is no earlier Rapture return.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. [SUP]43 [/SUP]But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. [SUP]44 [/SUP]Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Another false assumption in a long line of false assumptions my dear brother. The passage does not tell us that 1/4 of the world is killed. Please read it again!!
And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill...
He has power over a 1/4 of the earth to kill using various means. It does not say he kills all 1/4 of the earth. The "them" mentioned is the Beast of the Sea which is an Islamic Extremist group from the North (of Israel).
What religion makes up 1/4 of the world? The horse is not pale. Rather it is green. The Greek word is Chloros, the same word used to describe the trees and grass of Rev 8. Green is the official color of Islam and it represents Paradise which is where they think they go when they die waging their Jihad. Instead we are told they go to Hades. We are in this seal right now. It was opened on June 29, 2014. We haven't seen nothing yet in terms of the killing they will do to Muslims who won't follow them and to Christians whom they behead or kill wherever they can.
Wrong on your view of the seals. The first seal is not the AntiChrist but is rather Mohammad, the false prophet. He rode a white "horse" more like a donkey/mule, named al-Buraq (as in Barrack like Obama) from Mecca to Jerusalem which is 666 nautical miles in distance. He claimed to have been on the Temple Mount (future sight of the Dome of the Rock 688 AD) then flew to Heaven. This is called Mohammad's night journey and is the reason why 1.5 billion Muslims pray 5 times a day. Study this event. Here is an excerpt:
Surah 17.1 Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
Mohammed's one-night journey is said to have covered the 766 miles from Mecca to Jerusalem, included a leg up to heaven and a return to Mecca by morning, and is described in part as follows:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309: It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.
Enough for now...
Christ Gathers
God Raptures
Whether or not these events are 1,000 years apart is still an open question in my mind. What is not open is the fact that neither God nor Christ return before the Tribulation to snatch believers away. This view is impossible since it is the Church and Israel which are the subject of Satan's Great Tribulation.
God Raptures
Whether or not these events are 1,000 years apart is still an open question in my mind. What is not open is the fact that neither God nor Christ return before the Tribulation to snatch believers away. This view is impossible since it is the Church and Israel which are the subject of Satan's Great Tribulation.
A
Read the rest of the wheat and tares. why do you stop at that point of being gathered together???? they are gathered together........ and the tares are burned and the wheat is put in the bin.
and if you CONTINUE to read you will find Jesus even explains the entire wheat and tares.
Never quit reading when you hear what you want to hear. continue to read until it is plain something else is being discussed.
humbly...allan
and if you CONTINUE to read you will find Jesus even explains the entire wheat and tares.
Never quit reading when you hear what you want to hear. continue to read until it is plain something else is being discussed.
humbly...allan
A
ever wonder what mohammed went to Jerusalem for? He was getting older...(hint hint)... and probably wondering what happens when you die.
Its my bet he was trying to see if he could squeeze into salvation there somehow. If only the muslum followers knew this they would know they were left out by him... deceived
Its my bet he was trying to see if he could squeeze into salvation there somehow. If only the muslum followers knew this they would know they were left out by him... deceived
A
I wished I knew how many times Jesus stated in the bible, "have you not read" when people had questions of Him.
This still holds true today. Don't you have ANY idea what Gods whole purpose is here????? read the bible for petes sake.
God is seperating the wheat from the tares. Its that simple.
Read the wheat and tares and then answer your own question.
This still holds true today. Don't you have ANY idea what Gods whole purpose is here????? read the bible for petes sake.
God is seperating the wheat from the tares. Its that simple.
Read the wheat and tares and then answer your own question.
P
This is why I am not postrib .
They are gathered together,separated,and burned.
That happens After the mil.
Read it for yourself.
Read mat 25.
There is no gathering of the wicked concerning the rapture.
The only traction you MAY,JUST MAY,Find concerning any wicked gathered,is the "angel on a cloud with a sickle".
....and even then,I do believe they are not burned.
I am not postrib for the reason that,the word completely annihilates that theory.
Ask yourself why do they teach men that nonsense about the wheat and tares?
They are gathered together,separated,and burned.
That happens After the mil.
Read it for yourself.
Read mat 25.
There is no gathering of the wicked concerning the rapture.
The only traction you MAY,JUST MAY,Find concerning any wicked gathered,is the "angel on a cloud with a sickle".
....and even then,I do believe they are not burned.
I am not postrib for the reason that,the word completely annihilates that theory.
Ask yourself why do they teach men that nonsense about the wheat and tares?
Hi PlainWord,
First of all, God is not the one who kills the Great tribulation saints. They will be killed for keeping the testimony of Jesus, the word of God and because they will neither worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, as seen in Rev.20:4. And you are correct about the last part in that, God has shortened those days otherwise there be no one left on the earth and that because of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. There are only two places in Revelation that list the percentages of fatalities from those plagues which is a fourth and a third as a result of the fourth seal and sixth trumpet, respectively, which based on 7 billion is approximately 4.4 billion people with just those two. Taking into consideration trumpets 1, 2 and 3 plus the bowl judgments, I guestimate that there will be less than 10% of the earth's population remaining when Christ returns to the earth, if even that.
First of all, God is not the one who kills the Great tribulation saints. They will be killed for keeping the testimony of Jesus, the word of God and because they will neither worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, as seen in Rev.20:4. And you are correct about the last part in that, God has shortened those days otherwise there be no one left on the earth and that because of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. There are only two places in Revelation that list the percentages of fatalities from those plagues which is a fourth and a third as a result of the fourth seal and sixth trumpet, respectively, which based on 7 billion is approximately 4.4 billion people with just those two. Taking into consideration trumpets 1, 2 and 3 plus the bowl judgments, I guestimate that there will be less than 10% of the earth's population remaining when Christ returns to the earth, if even that.
A
Hi Popeye,
In 1830 margaret mcdonald had a dream and thought it was demonic. darby and all, took this to mean money in their pockets and came up with the rapture doctrine. Satans last attempt to steal souls from God is this rapture theory.
everyone thinks satan comes back killing and destroying in a frenzy, but that is not the truth! he comes in peacefully, pretending to be Jesus and tricks many of Gods children into thinking Jesus has returned.
satan comes at the 6th trump Jesus comes at the 7th trump.
When Jesus does come back, He is sickened to find so many of his people worshipping satan.
These deceived Christians are the ones taken 1st, These are the deceived Christians that are calling for the rocks to fall on them because they are so sickened that they were fooled into beleiving in satans rapture theory.
sad. so so sad. People sitting in the front row of chruch every week dedicating themselves to God. Good people loving people, only to follow satan at the last deception. Crying for the rocks to fall on them they are so ashamed.
read this again for yourselves in the bible and see if you don't see who is saying these things about the rocks falling on their heads.
allan
In 1830 margaret mcdonald had a dream and thought it was demonic. darby and all, took this to mean money in their pockets and came up with the rapture doctrine. Satans last attempt to steal souls from God is this rapture theory.
everyone thinks satan comes back killing and destroying in a frenzy, but that is not the truth! he comes in peacefully, pretending to be Jesus and tricks many of Gods children into thinking Jesus has returned.
satan comes at the 6th trump Jesus comes at the 7th trump.
When Jesus does come back, He is sickened to find so many of his people worshipping satan.
These deceived Christians are the ones taken 1st, These are the deceived Christians that are calling for the rocks to fall on them because they are so sickened that they were fooled into beleiving in satans rapture theory.
sad. so so sad. People sitting in the front row of chruch every week dedicating themselves to God. Good people loving people, only to follow satan at the last deception. Crying for the rocks to fall on them they are so ashamed.
read this again for yourselves in the bible and see if you don't see who is saying these things about the rocks falling on their heads.
allan
Hi PW,
Regarding the above, I don't know why you are making this into two events split between Christ and God the Father. In 1 Thes.4:13-18, it is the Lord Jesus who is the one who is gathering the dead and living of the church. The "gathering" is the "rapture" or catching away, they are the same event. At the time when Christ descends the dead rise first, immediately followed by the living being transformed and caught up with those who will have just previously been resurrected where according to Jesus promise in John 14:1-3, he takes the whole group back to the Father's house. God the Father does not leave heaven, it is Jesus who comes and removes the church.
Again, the problem that you run into by placing the resurrection and catching away after the Tribulation, is that scripture makes clear that believers during the church period are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be taking place during that entire last seven years. The wrath that believers deserve was placed on Christ, satisfying God's wrath as a result of our sins. Therefore, he is not going send us through his wrath which was already satisfied by Christ's death.
This problem stems from people not differentiating between common persecution and death at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, between God's unprecedented wrath which will come upon the whole earth. The church cannot be here for God's wrath and will be removed prior to this time period.
Regarding the above, I don't know why you are making this into two events split between Christ and God the Father. In 1 Thes.4:13-18, it is the Lord Jesus who is the one who is gathering the dead and living of the church. The "gathering" is the "rapture" or catching away, they are the same event. At the time when Christ descends the dead rise first, immediately followed by the living being transformed and caught up with those who will have just previously been resurrected where according to Jesus promise in John 14:1-3, he takes the whole group back to the Father's house. God the Father does not leave heaven, it is Jesus who comes and removes the church.
Again, the problem that you run into by placing the resurrection and catching away after the Tribulation, is that scripture makes clear that believers during the church period are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be taking place during that entire last seven years. The wrath that believers deserve was placed on Christ, satisfying God's wrath as a result of our sins. Therefore, he is not going send us through his wrath which was already satisfied by Christ's death.
This problem stems from people not differentiating between common persecution and death at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, between God's unprecedented wrath which will come upon the whole earth. The church cannot be here for God's wrath and will be removed prior to this time period.