What are the Consequences of Falling from Grace?

[Gr8grace]

point me to the verse that says you are saved unconditionally forever. that after salvation you can still smoke, cuss, fornicate and even commit suicide and your still heaven bound with the hammer down

John 5~~ 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[ladylynn]

I would say that those who fall away from the faith and return to a life of willful sin are lost. But some only want to hear the sweet parts of the message, not the bitter eh?

The fact is the Good News of the Gospel is Jesus saves and has given eternal life and no one, no thing no circumstance can take us out of His hand. Jesus Saves is the Good NEWS. It is not Jesus Saves only if you keep your part of the deal..... the 'deal' was made between the God-head and you or I had nothing to do with it. If we had anything to do with it, we would chose the great people of the world, the strong people and the 'deserving' people. God's way is to take sinners and make them saints. If they already believe they are righteous, they don't need a Savior.

We did not help God decide how He would cause redemption to be given. It is His invitation for all to COME., Eternal life is eternal, secured by the One who gave it. We have nothing to give Him but our brokenness. It is He who makes us into something when we allow Him to transform/renew our minds through the Bible and the Holy Spirit that sealed us until the day of redemption. If you are saved, you are sealed. You can't take the seal off., the Holy Spirit is stronger than we are. Jesus is mighty to save. We ...are not.

 

[ladylynn]

The thief on the cross did not find this. He was saved without works.

Works are not PROOF we are saved. They are possible evidence of it. A man may be wholly righteous in man's eyes and rejected by God. and wholly unrighteous but acceptable to God.

It is however true that no fruit usually means no Holy Spirit means no salvation through Jesus Christ in most cases because they are the fruit of salvation. They are a consequence of salvation, one of its results.

When you come right down to it, many just better commit suicide at the moment of salvation so they don't risk doing something to jeopardize their eternal destination. Seriously., better to be safe than sorry. (human reason is insanity) Another reason to fully trust in Jesus for our salvation and not our 'works' We did nothing to merit salvation, we can do nothing to un merit it. Jesus is the One who gives un merited un earned salvation full and free.

 

[ladylynn]

The old thief on the cross faulty debate..........

This has been covered multiple times as this is a example of God's mercy for a person who comes to Him on their death bed. A death bed confession..........

It does not apply to one who has come to Christ and then lived for 5, 10, 20, 30, or so more years after !!!

We need to stop using certain examples that do not apply to other situations........

OK, the "get killed right at the very moment of salvation" human (clause) fits in right here then. Forget living 5, 10, 20, 30 or so more years!!!!! get killed the moment you believe than there is no chance of losing your salvation. Less stress and an assurance done on your own behalf but sooner!!! Why drag it out and possibly lose?? Your still in control just doing something sooner than later!

 

[sondra333]

Brother Goodnewsman,
Hello, and God Bless You! The only response i had while reading what you had stated is this... I understand your anger and your frustration at hypocrites, which is to say those that profess to know Me and yet their hearts are far from Me..but i would caution you my brother as i have cautioned myself which is to not get to caught up in judgement for some can truly be trying their hardest to quit all of these terrible habits that you had mentioned and i know that i am one and long for the day when i will recieve His robes and be changed in the twinkle of an eye. Neverless i don't like to say absolutely NO i will not ever be perfect in this flesh for i am a reborn new creature in Christ and i have been baptised by God's Holy Spirit so i wish to not place boundaries or constrictions (as if i could) on God's will for me, but i do know with certainty that (I) will NEVER achieve such a wonderous thing no matter how much i long for it. Also i have come to realize in prayer that when i still struggle with sin, especially one that keeps lingering no matter how hard i try He finally opened my eyes to the realization that what if it is His decision as to what weaknesses He decides to heal and in His time to heal, for He accepted me regardless of worthyness or deservement is His love that He gave freely to me....And because of that acceptance of my weakness or sin let's say that there is one or some that again no matter how i try He had decided to accept me and heal me but not in this earthly time but in His time. Could it be for the sake of teaching me long suffering patience to not only bring to my attention that everything is possible with Him and with me nothing is, but to also bring to my attention the lack of trust and ultimately lack of faith in His power, and the wanting to pull away because i tried so hard and finally frustated and hurt i left it in His hands and yet i did not change, did i really leave it within His hands then? Or did i have any kind of patience in His will and His timing? Or ultimately was i behaving as a spoiled child that wants it NOW FATHER! in my time. Also i remind myself when i feel like judging that i can NOT see into a man's heart is that not the purpose of God Almighty being the One and True Judge? It troubles me when we get caught up in judging instead of lovingly correcting...for again we can not see into another's heart and to be so quick to "take away" one's salvation when He went thru so much to give it, i am sorry but i don't agree with that for again if they truly be hypocrites then did they really ever recieve His salvation and why trouble yourself with it if they are or not for He KNOWS. You take care my brother and love to you from your sister in Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

James...give it a rest buddy....

at least two of you on this thread are Liars or you don't really believe in unconditional eternal security!

i read on another thread were grace777x70 and eternally-grateful both defending suicide. saying if someone kills themselves they would still go to heaven. (i guess because they prayed as a child?????????) wow!

if you really believed that you wouldn't even take the time to respond to this wonderful posting that I'm doing. you mean to tell me that you could be walking on streets of gold, seeing Jesus face to face, in a place were there is no sin, no more crazy chat rooms, and YOUR STILL HERE?

point: you don't really believe what your barking about.

 

[valiant]

The old thief on the cross faulty debate..........

This has been covered multiple times as this is a example of God's mercy for a person who comes to Him on their death bed. A death bed confession..........

It does not apply to one who has come to Christ and then lived for 5, 10, 20, 30, or so more years after !!!

We need to stop using certain examples that do not apply to other situations........

you miss out because you do not consider all situations. in this case the exception proves the rule.

however long or short our lives it is GOD alone who saves.

 

[valiant]

By the way I have done a research study on the history of the Church, and the doctrines of eternal security, OSAS, and hyper-grace were not taught before the 4th century by the early church. Hyper-grace is the newest one of the 3 as it originated out of OSAS.

h'mm. who has called us with a holy calling, not according to our doings, but according to His own mercy and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Tim 1.9).,

seems clear to me. AND it was before 4 th century

The scripture you give from Romans 14:22 is speaking on making sure we are operating properly in the faith, and do not condemn ourselves by doing things or allowing/approving things that are clearly stated as being wrong.

This is another place of many that tells us to examine ourselves to make sure we are in the faith of Jesus Christ, meaning do our actions and speech align with what the Lord said.

ensure you are IN THE FAiTH, you may never have entered in

 

[valiant]

By the way I have done a research study on the history of the Church, and the doctrines of eternal security, OSAS, and hyper-grace were not taught before the 4th century by the early church.

notoriously unreliable. None of them understood Paul.

what says the Scripture?


'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)


'Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come behind in no gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,who will also confirm you unto the end, that you might be unreproveable in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (1 Corinth 1.6-8). (and this the corinthian church!)


'Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ' (Phil 2.6).


'Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our doings, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.' (2 Tim 1.9)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

bottom line seems to be that eternal security position is "it says that, but it really means this"

conditional security position is "it says that, and it means that!"

Sadly, you still have no understanding of the eternal security position. Nor of the conditional position. because in reality, those two should be switched.

The conditional security says I do not work for it. When reality says they do. The eternal security position says we can never earn it, When in reality, that is true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

at least two of you on this thread are Liars or you don't really believe in unconditional eternal security!

i read on another thread were grace777x70 and eternally-grateful both defending suicide. saying if someone kills themselves they would still go to heaven. (i guess because they prayed as a child?????????) wow!

if you really believed that you wouldn't even take the time to respond to this wonderful posting that I'm doing. you mean to tell me that you could be walking on streets of gold, seeing Jesus face to face, in a place were there is no sin, no more crazy chat rooms, and YOUR STILL HERE?

point: you don't really believe what your barking about.

So your saying Jesus did not pay for all sin. And when he gave a person eternal life. He did not know he would later commit a sin which would cause him to die, and force him to take his gift back.

Thanks, You just proved you have no faith in the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

point me to the verse that says you are saved unconditionally forever. that after salvation you can still smoke, cuss, fornicate and even commit suicide and your still heaven bound with the hammer down

Are you perfect.

If not, You just condemned yourself. or are the biggest hypocrite around, Because you think your sin is alright, while there sins condemn them..

 

[Goodnewsman]

what! not an answer? just because it's not the answer you don't want to hear doesn't mean it's not an answer. eternal life is only "in Christ" if the branch is separated from the vine, how does it have eternal life? I agree we have eternal life "if we remain in the vine" I didn't say that, the bible did.

Not an answer. Show us a verse that says," Gods gift of eternal life is revocable.

Your verses of the believers WORKS and HUMAN GOOD being burned up is not making a gift that is irrevocable(eternal life).....revocable.

 

[Goodnewsman]

slow down and read this verse slowly please.John 5:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

did you even notice the two words "heareth" and "believeth"? please notice there are "present tense verbs"
it did not say "he that has heard my word and believed (past tense) has eternal life.

please be careful not to do as apostle peter warned and "wrest scriptures to your own destruction"
2 Peter 3:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

John 5~~24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[Goodnewsman]

once I get up from the altar after asking God to forgive me my sins I am as perfect as I can be on this side of eternity. remember the scripture "If we confess our sin, he is faithful to forgive us"

I don't think you really believe half what you post. I think you are being what peter called "willingly ignorant" in 2 peter 2:5
because it sounds so good. "pray once, then live like the devil, even commit suicide and still go to heaven"

Are you perfect.

If not, You just condemned yourself. or are the biggest hypocrite around, Because you think your sin is alright, while there sins condemn them..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

once I get up from the altar after asking God to forgive me my sins I am as perfect as I can be on this side of eternity. remember the scripture "If we confess our sin, he is faithful to forgive us"

So this is how you excuse your sin. You commit a sin, Go to some alter, and your perfect. free to commit another sin, so you can go to the alter. and your perfect. free to commit another sin, so you can go to the alter... (I think you get the point. See how hypocritical you sound?

I don't think you really believe half what you post. I think you are being what peter called "willingly ignorant" in 2 peter 2:5
because it sounds so good. "pray once, then live like the devil, even commit suicide and still go to heaven"

Oh I believe perfectly everything I say.

The law is Gods requirement, Anything short of perfection is not good enough, All (including myself) have sinned, and continue to fall short of the glory of God.

I can judge smokers drinkers or other people. because I still sin myself. And I refuse to be a hypocrite and excuse my sin by saying I am ok just because I go to some alter, or confess my sin to God.. And this makes me better than other sinners.

I am the tax collector. Every day of my life. You continue to be the Pharisee.

Now who did Jesus say when home justified?

 

[Goodnewsman]

then please tell me what scripture meant when it says in John John 15:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

did you not just read that Jesus said there is something you must do? abide or remain THATS YOUR PART

have you never read the warning given to the church at sardis? when God warned that he would blot there name from the book of like?

Revelation 3:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

you've also just proved you only read parts of the bible that agrees with you

So your saying Jesus did not pay for all sin. And when he gave a person eternal life. He did not know he would later commit a sin which would cause him to die, and force him to take his gift back.

Thanks, You just proved you have no faith in the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

then please tell me what scripture meant when it says in John John 15:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

did you not just read that Jesus said there is something you must do? abide or remain THATS YOUR PART

have you never read the warning given to the church at sardis? when God warned that he would blot there name from the book of like?

Revelation 3:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

you've also just proved you only read parts of the bible that agrees with you

You have no faith in the cross. That is obvious.. You twist and take scripture out of context. and claim to be a man of God. You Have made yourself God by judging people..

I already responded to those two passages a few days ago. I hate playing kids games. If you want to play like a child and keep ignoring people who respond to what you say and say we have not answered them, that's on you.

Eternal life is eternal. You want to make it conditional

Eternal life is a gift, You want to make it a reward

Eternal life is based on the blood of Christ, You want to make it based on self will and works

Stop saying people only want to see passages that support them. When you have done that since you got here.

 

[Goodnewsman]

I'm noticing a trend here with you. I give you bible and you give me your opinion, and I'm sure your a good fellow but your opinion's wont save nobody.....bible please!. then you do the very thing you accuse me of, you judge me a Pharisee.

please stop judging my judging sir(see how ridiculous)

So this is how you excuse your sin. You commit a sin, Go to some alter, and your perfect. free to commit another sin, so you can go to the alter. and your perfect. free to commit another sin, so you can go to the alter... (I think you get the point. See how hypocritical you sound?



Oh I believe perfectly everything I say.

The law is Gods requirement, Anything short of perfection is not good enough, All (including myself) have sinned, and continue to fall short of the glory of God.

I can judge smokers drinkers or other people. because I still sin myself. And I refuse to be a hypocrite and excuse my sin by saying I am ok just because I go to some alter, or confess my sin to God.. And this makes me better than other sinners.

I am the tax collector. Every day of my life. You continue to be the Pharisee.

Now who did Jesus say when home justified?

 

[Grace777x70]

John 5:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This hearing and believes , Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and that time and so He is speaking in the present tense.

John 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, Now as far as verse 24..notice Jesus said that when they hear and believe His words.. "has passed" out of death into life.

"has passed" = perfect tense

Perfect Tense


The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.


This is a beautiful scripture about the security of the believer! This person that hears and believes about Christ - they have LIFE from an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

We have eternal life and it will always be ours because we are in Christ when we believe. This verse actually confirms the security of the believer in Christ. No matter how we try - we can never "do" things to get nor "keep" eternal life. It's all to do with God's abundant grace and it comes when we hear and believe on Him.