How to Recognize a Mixed-Grace Gospel
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Is there a point to this washing machine?
Yes, to slowly strip away the arguments, one by one, until finally we find out why they cannot walk in righteousness as Jesus intended. As long as they have power to write we have power to respond.
I know my enemy, because I have fought him and won for many years.
Jesus said a little leven levens the whole lump. So a small distortion turns over everything good and brings the fruit of evil and sin.
So I a saved redeemed follower of Jesus am called a self righteous, own works hypocrite. Why? Because that is how it feels to them. No sin found or even words justifying myself, so just slander and lies.
Now only one spirit creates this kind of accusation against the brethren and it is not the Holy Spirit.
Yes, to slowly strip away the arguments, one by one, until finally we find out why they cannot walk in righteousness as Jesus intended. As long as they have power to write we have power to respond.
I know my enemy, because I have fought him and won for many years.
Jesus said a little leven levens the whole lump. So a small distortion turns over everything good and brings the fruit of evil and sin.
So I a saved redeemed follower of Jesus am called a self righteous, own works hypocrite. Why? Because that is how it feels to them. No sin found or even words justifying myself, so just slander and lies.
Now only one spirit creates this kind of accusation against the brethren and it is not the Holy Spirit.
This is just a neo-gnostic manifestation of the early church gnostic belief that those who had the special "lens" (gnosis) could see their true identity that they had become incorruptible spirit beings through their union with eternal grace. What the body did was immaterial, which was diametrically opposed to church doctrine.
if you knew this truth..humanistic thinking would be out the door and we would learn to live from our new man created in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness...not trying to achieve it...
Without knowing what happened when we died with Christ on the cross..our old man being crucified with Him...we will never walk in what the Lord has for us in this life.....we are saved by His life in us now...
Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
It's no only in recognizing..ie..knowing that the old man is dead..but it's in the living now with Him part that we need to focus on.
Romans 6:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Without knowing what happened when we died with Christ on the cross..our old man being crucified with Him...we will never walk in what the Lord has for us in this life.....we are saved by His life in us now...
Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
It's no only in recognizing..ie..knowing that the old man is dead..but it's in the living now with Him part that we need to focus on.
Romans 6:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Let me clarify that this fella's claim that the old man doesn't exist is what I was referring to. Otherwise, he says many true things in the video. It's a pity. People like this grew up in very ungodly teaching, and are trying to find their way out of it. I hope they can escape this error. I think this guy will.
Emotional conviction
Once someone is an enemy, and polarisation has taken place, the automatic response is not to read what is written but just assume it is wrong.
Let us start where we agree. When we see God we will be like him walking in righteousness. This means we will do the right things and not sin
When we are saved we have righteousness imputed to us, our past is forgotten and forgiven, and we learn to walk righteously, straightening our lives out as our walk gets better in the power of the Holy Spirit. At the end we walk as Jesus walks obeying the commands He has given us.
When sin occurs we deal with it.
Before we are saved we are a mess of good deeds and sin, our minds and attitudes leading us to rebellion and deeds of rebellion or sin. We are doomed to destruction unless we are saved.
Now there are ways of talking about how we believe on Jesus, how we trust in the cross, repent, confess, walk, commune, have fellowship etc. We are called to obey Jesus's commands, but without a changed heart this is impossible.
Where I get lost is where there is disagreement, and how I have now lost my faith and am into self justification.
It appears walking with Jesus is sin, Jesus actually carries me and I do nothing, he is doing everything or I am a self justifying hypocrite.
Please correct me where I have it wrong. I am open to learn anything you can show me from the Lord, for He is may Saviour and Lord and I am His humble servant. So speak teacher if you can.
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30
A yoke is putting together two animals to pull a load, not one carrying another, so I see this as Jesus calling us to follow, meaning to walk after His example. Please correct me if I have failed to understand this verse correctly.
Once someone is an enemy, and polarisation has taken place, the automatic response is not to read what is written but just assume it is wrong.
Let us start where we agree. When we see God we will be like him walking in righteousness. This means we will do the right things and not sin
When we are saved we have righteousness imputed to us, our past is forgotten and forgiven, and we learn to walk righteously, straightening our lives out as our walk gets better in the power of the Holy Spirit. At the end we walk as Jesus walks obeying the commands He has given us.
When sin occurs we deal with it.
Before we are saved we are a mess of good deeds and sin, our minds and attitudes leading us to rebellion and deeds of rebellion or sin. We are doomed to destruction unless we are saved.
Now there are ways of talking about how we believe on Jesus, how we trust in the cross, repent, confess, walk, commune, have fellowship etc. We are called to obey Jesus's commands, but without a changed heart this is impossible.
Where I get lost is where there is disagreement, and how I have now lost my faith and am into self justification.
It appears walking with Jesus is sin, Jesus actually carries me and I do nothing, he is doing everything or I am a self justifying hypocrite.
Please correct me where I have it wrong. I am open to learn anything you can show me from the Lord, for He is may Saviour and Lord and I am His humble servant. So speak teacher if you can.
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30
A yoke is putting together two animals to pull a load, not one carrying another, so I see this as Jesus calling us to follow, meaning to walk after His example. Please correct me if I have failed to understand this verse correctly.
Peter we all here have told you things over 30 times and you still get it wrong about what was truly said..so your understanding of what is being said in the video is suspect..to say the very least.
.your mindset is based on your religious beliefs and the traditions of men so you rebel..which is why you rebel against the grace of Christ as people have been trying to explain to you..
open your heart to the Holy Spirit..He will guide you into all the beautiful things Christ has done for us in His finished work. He loves you dearly..you are His absolute favorite!
.your mindset is based on your religious beliefs and the traditions of men so you rebel..which is why you rebel against the grace of Christ as people have been trying to explain to you..
open your heart to the Holy Spirit..He will guide you into all the beautiful things Christ has done for us in His finished work. He loves you dearly..you are His absolute favorite!
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K
You are right here in all that you have said, and the problem I have seen from some that has lead to confusion is they take and still use scriptures speaking on before conversion and having it still apply to them.
When given the Words of Jesus on what He said for us to do they give the same response as the disciples did that Jesus called "men of little faith", of who can be saved then or as they word nobody can be saved !!!
This shows they still have some growing in the faith when they have a mindset like that and walk around thinking doing what He said is impossible.
This is my belief as it pertains to the flesh and the old man being dead and the new man is alive now in Christ..it's long but thorough..
For one thing....if the "old man" is not dead....then Christ has not died because we ( ie..our old man ) died with Him on the cross.
We become new creations in Christ with a "new man" created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:24
We still have the flesh which is the left over after the "old man" died. This is where I believe the confusion comes in with people. It is unfortunate that the NIV bible had translated "flesh" as the "sinful nature" which has for years thrown people off. I believe in their new edition of the bible they have fixed this mis-translation.
The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.
1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in
2) it is used when talking about self-effort
3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself
In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.
The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.
The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )
Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
italics = my words
Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the power of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."
As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!
As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John. Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount.
For one thing....if the "old man" is not dead....then Christ has not died because we ( ie..our old man ) died with Him on the cross.
We become new creations in Christ with a "new man" created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:24
We still have the flesh which is the left over after the "old man" died. This is where I believe the confusion comes in with people. It is unfortunate that the NIV bible had translated "flesh" as the "sinful nature" which has for years thrown people off. I believe in their new edition of the bible they have fixed this mis-translation.
The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.
1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in
2) it is used when talking about self-effort
3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself
In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.
The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.
The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )
Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
italics = my words
Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the power of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."
As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!
As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John. Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount.
Grace7x77 I have to say unfortunately I have to put you in my classification of the local nut house.
Whatever you have told me is only in your mind. You believe it most sincerely but after much enquiry you just spout gibberish.
You say I am following religious beliefs when I am just quoting scripture. So you oppose obvious scripture because it does not fit your ideas. I know the grace you talk of, but it is not the grace of Christ Paul is talking about, but your own version.
No christian walking in the Holy Spirit denies Jesus's glorious work on the cross, or the gift of new life. But you reject righteousness and the walk, which is where we part company.
You are right to understand our parting company is spiritual, but it is not because of the Holy Spirit.
I have shared my life here on this thread and laid out why I believe and experience as I have. But to this you have no answer than this repeated recording in your head. I doubt you have any real fruit from your efforts because they are so insane.
Whatever you have told me is only in your mind. You believe it most sincerely but after much enquiry you just spout gibberish.
You say I am following religious beliefs when I am just quoting scripture. So you oppose obvious scripture because it does not fit your ideas. I know the grace you talk of, but it is not the grace of Christ Paul is talking about, but your own version.
No christian walking in the Holy Spirit denies Jesus's glorious work on the cross, or the gift of new life. But you reject righteousness and the walk, which is where we part company.
You are right to understand our parting company is spiritual, but it is not because of the Holy Spirit.
I have shared my life here on this thread and laid out why I believe and experience as I have. But to this you have no answer than this repeated recording in your head. I doubt you have any real fruit from your efforts because they are so insane.
I have found a common trait of brain washed people, you can only answer questions in their predefined way. Using words or descriptions outside this framework just causes confusion. So my problem is not calling out to God, because I am self righteous. I suppose when the world is black and white, if I am not white I must be black.
I do admire the quoting of scripture, but this is so borrowed, it does not reflect personal understanding.
I know one tell tell point. If a question is raised that contradicts their mindset, they do not understand it at all and so cannot answer it. It became obvious when Joseph Prince the prosperity and grace preacher was claimed only to be a grace preacher because then failure of health and wealth is not a flaw. But lying seems not to be a moral issue for them.
I do admire the quoting of scripture, but this is so borrowed, it does not reflect personal understanding.
I know one tell tell point. If a question is raised that contradicts their mindset, they do not understand it at all and so cannot answer it. It became obvious when Joseph Prince the prosperity and grace preacher was claimed only to be a grace preacher because then failure of health and wealth is not a flaw. But lying seems not to be a moral issue for them.
okie dokie......continue with your "straw-man" then.....
Or else you are just a machine spouting propoganda. Do you think that is what life is and what Jesus called us to be in the world? It is safe for you, but leaves you on an island, never able to let the Lord or anyone else reach and influence you.
You want me to be influenced by what you share, but all you can do is ask the Lord, which I do all the time.
Do you actually trust anyone or open up to anyone about your real life? I would suspect not based on your very defensive approach.
K
I use to watch Joseph Prince a lot because when he first came out he gave some good sermons, but recently he has been saying some stuff that does not align with God's word so I stopped watching him.
I am one of the last people to call others out to be a false teacher because we all have areas we need to address.
I however also will not let 3 wrong points be taught slide just because he might be right on 7 other points, we are called to address the issue and let God' truth emerge.
I have seen way to many WOF (health and wealth prosperity) teachers/preachers make comments that you don't truthfully believe if you don't do this, or don't do that, to stay away from that teaching all together. As I have seen them also state clearly with no confusion if you are not wealthy and have good health it is because of our lack of faith !!!
Then they go and ignore all the warnings in the bible of getting caught up in such lavish lifestyles, as they turn and make covetous and materialist lifestyles acceptable when Jesus said they are not !!!
I am one of the last people to call others out to be a false teacher because we all have areas we need to address.
I however also will not let 3 wrong points be taught slide just because he might be right on 7 other points, we are called to address the issue and let God' truth emerge.
I have seen way to many WOF (health and wealth prosperity) teachers/preachers make comments that you don't truthfully believe if you don't do this, or don't do that, to stay away from that teaching all together. As I have seen them also state clearly with no confusion if you are not wealthy and have good health it is because of our lack of faith !!!
Then they go and ignore all the warnings in the bible of getting caught up in such lavish lifestyles, as they turn and make covetous and materialist lifestyles acceptable when Jesus said they are not !!!
F
No, you are the one being obtuse. The Christian understanding of the flesh (sarx) is not a secret. This what it is not. It is not a synonym for inherent sin, sin principle, law of sin, old man, old self, old nature, sin nature , self nature, Adam nature or human nature.
The "flesh" is related to the desires of man. Those desires that are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulnes. Patterns developed throughout the experiences of our lives that are individualized in idiosyncratic patterns of selfish action and/or reaction, and that stand opposed to the things of God.
The "flesh" is related to the desires of man. Those desires that are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulnes. Patterns developed throughout the experiences of our lives that are individualized in idiosyncratic patterns of selfish action and/or reaction, and that stand opposed to the things of God.