The Lie of Parental Forgiveness: Rebuilding the Veil Jesus Broke

[phil36]

It amazes me how much the hyper grace preachers have to distort the scriptures in order to fit their theology. and also how much they have to explain away rather than embrace.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

New American Standard Bible
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

New American Standard Bible
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

King James Bible
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Two can play that game.

Jesus of Nazareth—how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with him. Acts 10:38​

 

[coby]

You must have a horrible mind, thinking all your brothers and sisters are running around trying to find sin to do. Is this what you spend your days focusing upon... thinking other people are out there doing what you wish you could?

Of course not. I know how they mean it, but this showes that that teaching of you don't have to confess and repent when you sin is nonsense just like once saved always saved. I did this myself. I could have gone to hell if my mom hadn't prayed for me and if I hadn't converted again.

 

[Grace777x70]

I like the Major too...I have his book coming..I need to read it to get these truths cemented into my mind.

He certainly described the flesh accurately but the flesh is a deceptive little creature.....

He has it figured out doesn't he Grace 777? I like this guy.

 

[Gr8grace]

For me there is an important distinction. Goodness in terms of righteousness, or purity, or justification is flawed before the Lord. But good deeds are good no matter who does them or why they are done.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Matt 6:1

Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.
Matt 10:41

Now the difference Jesus is making here is in terms of a reward not one deed is evil and the other acceptable.
As soon as you start judging good deeds as evil you have corrupted righteousness and lost the understanding of what sin actually is.

This is a wonderful saying.........

All sin is evil but not all evil is sin.

Sin is easy. adultery or not........not.
Stealing or not.......not.
drunkenness or not......not.
covet or not.....not.
lusting or not .....not.

And the list goes on.

But to understand if we are operating in the Spirit or operating in the flesh..........that takes constant practice and advanced bible doctrine for us to discern.

And Peter, this for US personally, to grow and mature in our OWN faith.

I spent the first 8 years doing evil(human good) works in my Christian walk, Still do as far as I am concerned.........but I am starting to learn the difference.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It amazes me how much the hyper grace preachers have to distort the scriptures in order to fit their theology. and also how much they have to explain away rather than embrace.

Yes, they twist everything, and haven't learned yet that the strength of one's message is oftentimes inversely proportional to the quantity of verbiage used. They weave their web with many words that lift one from a lowly mind to a lifted up mind where it becomes ensnared.

The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What [is] the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. [Is] not my word like a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces? Jeremiah 23:28-29​

 

[PeterJens]

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

This is the most condescending, judgmental passage I have ever read. Who am I to stand over any fellow believer and say they are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit. I have see too many with so many different convictions used by God or completely flawed by their motivations.

If you agree with these sentiments you agree with the accuser of the brethren, because these are the words He would slanderously use. And you say I am reacting because of pride because the words hurt and bite. But you are insulting the very work of Jesus in peoples lives, accepting generalisations over peoples ministries done in faith love and hope.

You bring condemnation on yourselves by agreeing with such ideas. Little wonder the church declines and falls apart with spirits spouting this poison like you do.

Can any sanity be brought to your mind? I do not think so, but the Lord knows, and I pray he will turn your lives around before it is too late.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree.....we can be Christians for 40 years and work for all that time in a church and still be a baby Christian....it's that we are unacquainted of the "word of righteousness" is when we will be able to discern good or evil ( evil in Greek has one of it's meanings as being worthless ) ...

.it's His righteousness that we need to be established in..not in doing good deeds to establish our own righteousness ..subtle but big difference...outwardly the deeds look the same..but not to God....however the people receiving those good works do benefit from them .....but there is a difference as far as God looks at things.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed ( Greek - unacquainted ) to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

This is a wonderful saying.........

All sin is evil but not all evil is sin.

Sin is easy. adultery or not........not.
Stealing or not.......not.
drunkenness or not......not.
covet or not.....not.
lusting or not .....not.

And the list goes on.

But to understand if we are operating in the Spirit or operating in the flesh..........that takes constant practice and advanced bible doctrine for us to discern.

And Peter, this for US personally, to grow and mature in our OWN faith.

I spent the first 8 years doing evil(human good) works in my Christian walk, Still do as far as I am concerned.........but I am starting to learn the difference.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is a wonderful saying.........

All sin is evil but not all evil is sin.

Sin is easy. adultery or not........not.
Stealing or not.......not.
drunkenness or not......not.
covet or not.....not.
lusting or not .....not.

And the list goes on.

But to understand if we are operating in the Spirit or operating in the flesh..........that takes constant practice and advanced bible doctrine for us to discern.

Your list makes no sense. I'm sure that's because I'm not as advanced as you. The secret decoder ring that BenWTF gave me to decipher grace believers' dark sayings doesn't seem to be working.

 

[PeterJens]

I spent the first 8 years doing evil(human good) works in my Christian walk, Still do as far as I am concerned.........but I am starting to learn the difference.

You claim to know the Lord and walk in His Spirit. The Lords takes your flawed earthen vessel works and purifies them and uses them for His glory. You measure by your own sight and understanding, not the Lords.

All the Lord calls you to do is walk faithfully with a clean heart. Have you not listened to leader upon leader how the Lord takes that which is in our mind little and turns it into something glorious.

You call yourself mature and wanting to teach me, but do not understand Pauls approach.

I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
1 Cor 2:3-5

God takes who we are and uses it. Just commit your way to Him and walk.

 

[Gr8grace]

This is the most condescending, judgmental passage I have ever read. Who am I to stand over any fellow believer and say they are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit. I have see too many with so many different convictions used by God or completely flawed by their motivations.

If you agree with these sentiments you agree with the accuser of the brethren, because these are the words He would slanderously use. And you say I am reacting because of pride because the words hurt and bite. But you are insulting the very work of Jesus in peoples lives, accepting generalisations over peoples ministries done in faith love and hope.

You bring condemnation on yourselves by agreeing with such ideas. Little wonder the church declines and falls apart with spirits spouting this poison like you do.

Can any sanity be brought to your mind? I do not think so, but the Lord knows, and I pray he will turn your lives around before it is too late.

And I read it and say to myself," Self, that's you." And I thank God for the teacher who teaches me "softly" yet with truth.

There are so many areas in my life that I still am motivated through approbation lust and operate in the flesh. I thank God I ran into a pastor that showed me this.

My carnal mind would have never figured it out.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is a wonderful saying.........

All sin is evil but not all evil is sin.

Funny. I googled this to try to make some sense of it and found the exact opposite: All evil is sin, but not all sin is evil. Looks like somebody's confused (I think both are).

 

[PeterJens]

There is a terrible sin that christians can fall into. It is believing they can spot the spiritual condition of others.

It exalts them above their fellow brethren, and gives them the idea they have an inside track. I had a friend who believed he could do this all the time, and only his wisdom was correct. So speeding was fine, because cars now were so much safer than they were 30 years ago. It was a kind of arrogance. He was happy to tell me what my relationship was with my girl friend was poorer than his relationship with his lodger. As he had not seen me for 20 years and never met my partner it was absurd a statement.

I am very aware of people who talk like this but they do not listen or love people before they get involved.
We are called to know truth, and to share it not invent it. Unfortunately pride tends to lead people to arrogance.

 

[BenFTW]

The way I read 1 John 1:9 is for on-going sanctification in this life. Not for our position in Christ.

Sin and human good drags us away from the reality of our position in Christ. 1 John 1:9 just brings us back into the reality of our position.

It's washing our feet, we are in this world and we WILL touch it at times........name it and site, carry on.

"and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" is God cleansing us from all unknown sins and the human good that we may unknowingly been involved in.

As some would call it, "It's the Christian's bar of soap." That is what 1 John 1:9 is called to some and it is indeed an accurate description of people's idea of sin confession.

Our position in Christ isn't upheld/remembered through sin confession but in renewing our mind to who God says we are in Jesus Christ. Sin confession doesn't even hint at our position or reality of our position in Christ. The very act contradicts our position because in Christ sin has been paid and dealt with, forgotten by God, and as far as the east is from the west.

The reasoning behind sin confession that you're bringing up isn't resolved in sin confession but in fellowship with the Lord. They are pulling a Jonah, walking outside of God's will for their life. This can be taken care of through chastisement and correction done in love and not through sin confession. Sin confession is irrelevant to the discussion of walking the path the Lord has set before a person, its a matter of obedience.

Our cleanliness isn't done through sin confession as like a bar of soap but in Christ. It always goes back to Jesus.

1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Grace 777, we are pretty much always on the same page. lets hash this out a bit.

I believe we have to confess our sins to God. Sin and human good takes us out of the plan of God. And we need to get back into his plan..........1 John 1:9 is how the believer returns to the plan(prodigal son.) A side note to this is the older son....He was stuck in human good, or his own self righteousness and he never named and sited it or acknowledged it.

Both are sons, both were out of the plan of God for their daily lives.......one recognized it and returned. Not for salvation, but for getting back into the Fathers plan for their lives.

From some of the stuff I have read you don't believe we have to?...Am I reading this wrong?

Of course we should confess our sins. But, is your forgiveness dependent upon your confession?

 

[Gr8grace]

I agree.....we can be Christians for 40 years and work for all that time in a church and still be a baby Christian....it's that we are unacquainted of the "word of righteousness" is when we will be able to discern good or evil ( evil in Greek has one of it's meanings as being worthless ) ...

.it's His righteousness that we need to be established in..not in doing good deeds to establish our own righteousness ..subtle but big difference...outwardly the deeds look the same..but not to God....however the people receiving those good works do benefit from them .....but there is a difference as far as God looks at things.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed ( Greek - unacquainted ) to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

And Grace777, this is serious business. If we have never believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation and believe it is jesus+our deeds.....we are in serious trouble because it is in fact those DEEDS that the unbeliever is judged for.

Sin~~ἁμαρτία, ας, ἡ .....hamartia

Deeds~~ἔργον, ου, τό....ergon.....work, labor, action, deed

All sin is paid for, but the deeds/self righteous works...........human good is NOT.

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds(Deeds~~ἔργον, ου, τό....ergon.....work, labor, action, deed).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And I read it and say to myself," Self, that's you." And I thank God for the teacher who teaches me "softly" yet with truth.

There are so many areas in my life that I still am motivated through approbation lust and operate in the flesh. I thank God I ran into a pastor that showed me this.

My carnal mind would have never figured it out.

Oh that explains it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Bizarre. Humans are made in GOD's image. Anything that humans do that is not sin is good.

Thats just really messed up.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Very true..but it is such a subtle thing..this self-effort in the flesh....it is massively deceptive.... as this quote that FreeNChrist showed us..talks about.

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. T

he flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God. “Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."



Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ

Well, I gotta like that........

 

[BenFTW]

So if I go smoke pot and hate people and live together with a guy I can just go on with that and no need to confess those sins and repent and stop doing it?

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It seems I am preaching the Gospel. This is usually the accusation or concern raised when the Gospel is preached. "Is this news truly that good!?" Yes, it is the Good News. God's grace isn't a license to sin and someone who uses God's grace to justify sin doesn't understand His grace. A license to sin is not the fruit of hyper-grace, but a false allegation brought against the forgiveness and liberty preached by grace believers. The fruit reveals itself.

The word of God says that "Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under the law but grace." This scripture alone discredits all allegations that hyper-grace endorses licentiousness. God's grace sets us free from sin's dominion, it doesn't give us a license to sin.