GOD IS FOR YOU, NOT AGAINST YOU

[crossnote]

I agree with you except that of saying Apostles and Prophets have ceased !!!

The Word of God clearly says and shows from Acts to Revelation that prophecy still will be around tell the end, and as for being an apostle that simply means one sent from God to spread the good news........

This does not have to be one who has personally seen or walked with Jesus, as there are a number of people in the Bible named as apostles that came later under the guidance of Paul, Peter, and John.............

See, it hinges on definition. By Prophets and Apostles one of the thing I have in mind is that there are no one today whose words are equal to Scripture as there were with the prophets and original apostles. I did say the OFFICE of...but you may have overlooked that.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Ken said...

Therefore the curses only applies to those who are under the law, and not to believers in Christ.

Those who sin are under the law of sin and death which works in their members, not to be confused with the law of Moses.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Also, when you add dirt (flesh) to the Holy Water (Living waters) it brings forth the curse.

 

[crossnote]

So, would you say that all preachers that say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ceased are LIARS?

There are some areas I don't call a teacher a liar...and that is in the debatable areas.
I was alluding to the fact that those preachers who put guilt trips on Christians (e.g. lack of faith) for living in physical poverty or ill health are LIARS.

 

[KennethC]

See, it hinges on definition. By Prophets and Apostles one of the thing I have in mind is that there are no one today whose words are equal to Scripture as there were with the prophets and original apostles. I did say the OFFICE of...but you may have overlooked that.

No I did not over look that, but to say those offices don't exist is the same as saying those positions in the body doesn't exist.

That is not what the Word of God says or shows, as Acts shows many will prophecy in the end days, and those end days were said to have started back in Paul's day.

The two witnesses in Revelation are also prophets !!!

I use to myself for the longest time think that there was only 12 Apostles, because that is all you ever heard in the 80's.

When I started studying the Word of God I found out that was not true, as Mathias was counted an Apostle before even Paul became one.

Then you have Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanus, Apollos, and others...................

 

[KennethC]

Ken said...

Those who sin are under the law of sin and death which works in their members, not to be confused with the law of Moses.

What the Mosaic law and the law of sin and death is one and the same, because it was the Mosaic law that pointed out our sins to us and thus held those under the curses/punishments for breaking any of those ordinances.

We as believers are not under the law and Jesus has redeemed us from the curse that comes from the law, therefore none of it applies to believers in Christ !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

I hear what you are saying....I totally agree that is very wrong to put people under guilt trips if they are sick or poor...we are to weep with those that weep ....and be a blessing with those that have not....to me this is one fo the great things about the life of Christ in us..it compels us to ,love those that are hurt...

so in the same light as that....what about those preachers that say the gifts are ceased and anyone who is exercising the gifts is not of God..and some even say are satanic..are these preachers LIARS?

There are some areas I don't call a teacher a liar...and that is in the debatable areas.
I was alluding to the fact that those preachers who put guilt trips on Christians (e.g. lack of faith) for living in physical poverty or ill health are LIARS.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree..I think crossnote was referring to "foundational apostles and prophets"..as the office of the 5 fold ministry gifts is always with us to grow in the body of Christ..

No I did not over look that, but to say those offices don't exist is the same as saying those positions in the body doesn't exist.

That is not what the Word of God says or shows, as Acts shows many will prophecy in the end days, and those end days were said to have started back in Paul's day.

The two witnesses in Revelation are also prophets !!!

I use to myself for the longest time think that there was only 12 Apostles, because that is all you ever heard in the 80's.

When I started studying the Word of God I found out that was not true, as Mathias was counted an Apostle before even Paul became one.

Then you have Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanus, Apollos, and others...................

 

[crossnote]

No I did not over look that, but to say those offices don't exist is the same as saying those positions in the body doesn't exist.

That is not what the Word of God says or shows, as Acts shows many will prophecy in the end days, and those end days were said to have started back in Paul's day.

The two witnesses in Revelation are also prophets !!!

I use to myself for the longest time think that there was only 12 Apostles, because that is all you ever heard in the 80's.

When I started studying the Word of God I found out that was not true, as Mathias was counted an Apostle before even Paul became one.

Then you have Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanus, Apollos, and others...................

You bring up the two witnesses. I was referring to this Church dispensation. When the focus is back on the Jews(to whom the Scriptures came) after the church is taken, then yes all bets are off, you are dealing with another entity.

Please point me to someone today whose words are as good as Scripture giving us new revelation.

 

[crossnote]

I hear what you are saying....I totally agree that is very wrong to put people under guilt trips if they are sick or poor...we are to weep with those that weep ....and be a blessing with those that have not....to me this is one fo the great things about the life of Christ in us..it compels us to ,love those that are hurt...

so in the same light as that....what about those preachers that say the gifts are ceased and anyone who is exercising the gifts is not of God..and some even say are satanic..are these preachers LIARS?

Again I would not call them liars. I make allowances for my own un-perfect knowledge.
The preachers I had mentioned crossed the line (you have to draw the line somewhere).

 

[KennethC]

You bring up the two witnesses. I was referring to this Church dispensation. When the focus is back on the Jews(to whom the Scriptures came) after the church is taken, then yes all bets are off, you are dealing with another entity.

Please point me to someone today whose words are as good as Scripture giving us new revelation.

I did not just point to the 2 witnesses, I also pointed to Acts 2:17 that clearly shows throughout the last days:

1) sons and daughters will prophecy

2) young men see visions

3) old men dream dreams

(vs. 18) menservants and maidservants will prophecy

1 John 2:18 tells us from John those last days have already begun back in his time.............

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree....I wouldn't call them liars either....unlearned maybe.....not manifesting wisdom maybe....but LIARS...probably not a good thing to call people that are in those types of situations.

Again I would not call them liars. I make allowances for my own un-perfect knowledge.

 

[crossnote]

I did not just point to the 2 witnesses, I also pointed to Acts 2:17 that clearly shows throughout the last days:

1) sons and daughters will prophecy

2) young men see visions

3) old men dream dreams

(vs. 18) menservants and maidservants will prophecy

1 John 2:18 tells us from John those last days have already begun back in his time.............

Sigh, I'm not talking of the gifts. I'm talking of the Office of Apostle and Prophets.
Sure God gives visions and dreams and heals etc. but not by an elite group or office.

Again...
Please point me to someone today whose words are as good as Scripture giving us new revelation.

 

[pwrnJC]

Breadley...sounds patriotic, justifiable, and even downright believable. However, you and I never did anything deserving of the suffering that JESUS went through to offer us the free gift of Salvation. We certainly can't puff ourselves up and go around seeking JUSTICE the rest of our lives. Let's make it simple: If we have JESUS on our side (and we do, if we serve HIM), then let's help others reach for Justice by introducing them to HIM. Then, old satan will be upset and justice will be served to him!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

What the Mosaic law and the law of sin and death is one and the same

No sir, they are not the same, the law of Moses is not sin or death working in your members, notice....

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

The law of Moses just condemned sin working in the flesh,(members) that is why it is called the ministration of condemnation because it's function is to condemn sin. But the law of Moses is in no way sin or death.

That war there is the enmity between the flesh and Spirit (the law is spiritual but man is carnal) sold under the law of sin and death.

So it is the law of the Spirit of life that has set us free from sin, or the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


No more sin, no more need for the law, because the law was not made for the righteous, but for sinners.

 

[KennethC]

Sigh, I'm not talking of the gifts. I'm talking of the Office of Apostle and Prophets.
Sure God gives visions and dreams and heals etc. but not by an elite group or office.

Again...
Please point me to someone today whose words are as good as Scripture giving us new revelation.

I think I see your confusion on this now is that you want to see a whole group of people going around doing these things.

Even in the OT only a very few were chosen to be prophets, not all believers hold that role.

The other thing you seem to do is place because we have God's word no prophecy is needed, however prophecy only has to align with the Word of God, it does not have to be saying exactly what the Word says.

For instance if one was given a prophetic dream to share of what was about to take place, seeing for example the U.S. being destroyed. Then when shared that person would be given a prophecy and thus be a prophet, yet we can not deem such a person a false prophet unless that prophecy they saw never comes to pass.

Remember the prophets of the OT were not believed or received by many also !!!

When a person is placed in a position in the body that calling comes from God through the Holy Spirit, so why separate the gifts of the Holy Spirit from the position. Without the Holy Spirit the other would not be possible !!!

You know why prophets are not heard much of now ??? Because they are just explained away as being crazy, nuts, or said to have mental illnesses !!!

 

[JGIG]

I mean it, I have 2 boys, and I honestly couldn't imagine being in your position. We can absolutely agree that He CAN help, and is the ONLY one that can or is the ONLY place to turn in these times. I would have had no idea you were going through this now, and though I really would feel the same about what I believe and have said on here, knowing this would have probably changed the tone of some of my comments the last week or so. This has actually taught me a new lesson through His Spirit in me and you. That maybe we can spend a little less time arguing doctrine and pointing fingers at each other (not that that stuff doesn't matter or anything crazy like that) and a little more time trying to get to know each other better and lifting each other up and supporting them with prayer and in love. I know what we believe is important and I would never make light of it, but we are in the middle of real life and people are going through real things, and this faceless internet makes it too easy to cast stones without ever even know the person at all.

I am so sorry about your son and I WILL pray for him and you guys as well. Man this really was an eye opener for me, I thank you for sharing and praise God for teaching me something very important I wasn't even thinking about. Have a nice weekend.

I believe you ! And thanks for the prayers!

-JGIG

 

[KennethC]

No sir, they are not the same, the law of Moses is not sin or death working in your members, notice....

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

The law of Moses just condemned sin working in the flesh,(members) that is why it is called the ministration of condemnation because it's function is to condemn sin. But the law of Moses is in no way sin or death.

That war there is the enmity between the flesh and Spirit (the law is spiritual but man is carnal) sold under the law of sin and death.

So it is the law of the Spirit of life that has set us free from sin, or the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


No more sin, no more need for the law, because the law was not made for the righteous, but for sinners.

No the Mosaic law was called the law of condemnation because breaking any one of the written ordinances, especially that of the 10 Commandments carried the death penalty.

The two laws that Paul was speaking about in Romans 7 was the Mosaic law vs. the Law of Liberty in Christ.

The Mosaic law pointed out to him his sinful behavior and need of a Savior so that he would not be condemned, and now the law of liberty in Christ shows him a better way to live. Yet his flesh wars with the law of Christ because his flesh wants him to do one thing, while the law of liberty tells him to do the opposite.

The law of Moses did not condemn sin it pointed it out !!!

 

[crossnote]

I think I see your confusion on this now is that you want to see a whole group of people going around doing these things.

Even in the OT only a very few were chosen to be prophets, not all believers hold that role.

The other thing you seem to do is place because we have God's word no prophecy is needed, however prophecy only has to align with the Word of God, it does not have to be saying exactly what the Word says.

For instance if one was given a prophetic dream to share of what was about to take place, seeing for example the U.S. being destroyed. Then when shared that person would be given a prophecy and thus be a prophet, yet we can not deem such a person a false prophet unless that prophecy they saw never comes to pass.

Remember the prophets of the OT were not believed or received by many also !!!

When a person is placed in a position in the body that calling comes from God through the Holy Spirit, so why separate the gifts of the Holy Spirit from the position. Without the Holy Spirit the other would not be possible !!!

You know why prophets are not heard much of now ??? Because they are just explained away as being crazy, nuts, or said to have mental illnesses !!!

I'm ignoring your false assumptions about my position until you answer me this...

Please point me to someone today whose words are as good as Scripture giving us new revelation.

 

[Grace777x70]

2 Corinthians 3:7-9 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, ( ten commandments ) came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.