GOD IS FOR YOU, NOT AGAINST YOU

[Grace777x70]

I too have stated a few times on threads that there are things that Prince and others for that matter have said that I don't agree with. But as far as preaching the pure gospel of the grace of Christ...to me ..he is bang on. He can find Jesus in every old testament scripture..even down to the Hebrew words themselves. He lifts up Jesus and His life and grace.

And I have not been listening to him that much in the last few years.. sometimes I do but not that often....... I post his videos because they are on youtube for those that are interested. There are literally tons of people now preaching the gospel of grace of Christ and each one has a certain understanding that brings more light in areas.

 

[ForthAngel]

I'm very familiar with it, and reject it. I've known many believers whose lives became train wrecks because they latched onto the unbiblical teachings in that camp.

You're assuming that the Gospel of Grace (so-called Hyper-Grace by some) is THAT movement. It's not. Do some who preach the Gospel of Grace lean in that direction? Yes, and I disagree with some statements that some make. I will not throw out the rest of what they teach because of a secondary issue, however.

I've stated what I believe regarding these things pretty clearly on this thread - Grace and the goodness of God and healing and not healing and prospering and suffering and being in lack and having plenty . . . all are compatible with the Gospel of Grace.

-JGIG

It's the next generation of that very same movement. They have just made it more appealing. More subtle. They teach prosperity gospel and ignore much of scripture. They have deviated greatly from generally accepted orthodoxy.

 

[JGIG]

Never said you did. Extra defensive today?

Just weary of all the false accusations/assumptions made by those who won't take the time to actually find out what the Gospel of Grace folks believe.

The Gnosticism label wouldn't stick, the satanic label didn't stick, so now let's try the WOF label. It just gets annoying after a while. Why not just ask us about stuff and let's have a Biblical discussion.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I'm very familiar with it, and reject it. I've known many believers whose lives became train wrecks because they latched onto the unbiblical teachings in that camp.

You're assuming that the Gospel of Grace (so-called Hyper-Grace by some) is THAT movement. It's not. Do some who preach the Gospel of Grace lean in that direction? Yes, and I disagree with some statements that some make. I will not throw out the rest of what they teach because of a secondary issue, however.

I've stated what I believe regarding these things pretty clearly on this thread - Grace and the goodness of God and healing and not healing and prospering and suffering and being in lack and having plenty . . . all are compatible with the Gospel of Grace.

-JGIG

It's the next generation of that very same movement. They have just made it more appealing. More subtle. They teach prosperity gospel and ignore much of scripture. They have deviated greatly from generally accepted orthodoxy.

ForthAngel, you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

Anyone preaching Grace that came our of WOF is preaching AGAINST the errors in charismatic streams of faith. Many charismatics are STEEPED in legalism. There are plenty of charismatics that RAIL against the teachers of the Gospel of Grace - Dr. Michael Brown chief among them, and the one who coined the 'Hyper-Grace' label.

-JGIG

 

[ForthAngel]

ForthAngel, you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

Anyone preaching Grace that came our of WOF is preaching AGAINST the errors in charismatic streams of faith. Many charismatics are STEEPED in legalism. There are plenty of charismatics that RAIL against the teachers of the Gospel of Grace - Dr. Michael Brown chief among them, and the one who coined the 'Hyper-Grace' label.

-JGIG

Have you ever wondered why millions flock to prosperity preachers? Why they are given such a huge platform to preach their gospel? Why they have connections and friendships with known WoF leaders? Why they mingle with worldly celebs?

It's because this gospel is candy for worldly people. It promises them the most basic of human desires. Health, wealth, and power. This is not the Gospel of Christ crucified for our sins. This is a gospel of the flesh. They all have the same roots. Different branches of the same rotten tree.

Wide is the way that leads to destruction.

 

[Grace777x70]

The Lord supernaturally brought to me the message of the gospel of grace even before I watched anyone speak about it. One morning He started to put scriptures in my spirit and then for a few months after that every day He would give me more. I listened to no one until months after I had digested and meditated on those scriptures He gave me...Rhema words

...the first one I heard was Rob Rufus. When I first heard Joseph Prince talk it was about 1 John 1:9..I said..he's a heretic for sure....and I shut him out completely....lol...my religious mind balked at what he said....

The Lord was faithful to me and took me around Prince to other people..... .each of them giving me a "part"..then it came to me and now I say.." How did I not see that?"..

....revelation is like that..don't you find?

I didn't know I was hyper-grace until I read it one day in Charisma Mag....who knew???....

ForthAngel, you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

Anyone preaching Grace that came our of WOF is preaching AGAINST the errors in charismatic streams of faith. Many charismatics are STEEPED in legalism. There are plenty of charismatics that RAIL against the teachers of the Gospel of Grace - Dr. Michael Brown chief among them, and the one who coined the 'Hyper-Grace' label.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

ForthAngel, you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

Anyone preaching Grace that came our of WOF is preaching AGAINST the errors in charismatic streams of faith. Many charismatics are STEEPED in legalism. There are plenty of charismatics that RAIL against the teachers of the Gospel of Grace - Dr. Michael Brown chief among them, and the one who coined the 'Hyper-Grace' label.

-JGIG

Have you ever wondered why millions flock to prosperity preachers? Why they are given such a huge platform to preach their gospel? Why they have connections and friendships with known WoF leaders? Why they mingle with worldly celebs?

It's because this gospel is candy for worldly people. It promises them the most basic of human desires. Health, wealth, and power. This is not the Gospel of Christ crucified for our sins. This is a gospel of the flesh. They all have the same roots. Different branches of the same rotten tree.

Wide is the way that leads to destruction.

And you continually try to attach your perceptions to the Gospel of Grace.

Reading your post, I have to wonder, do you love the people who Jesus died for? Do you see them as wounded, lost sheep who need Jesus or do you view them as dirty, rotten sinners who are not worthy of redemption. While in reality none of us is worthy, God loved us and did the Work of Grace anyway - while we were yet sinners - and Grace continues *GASP* even AFTER we're saved!

The Gospel of Grace is this:

• Who Jesus is
• What He came to do
• What that actually accomplished, and
• Who those who put their faith in Christ are in Him.

That's it. Simple.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The Lord supernaturally brought to me the message of the gospel of grace even before I watched anyone speak about it. One morning He started to put scriptures in my spirit and then for a few months after that every day He would give me more. I listened to no one until months after I had digested and meditated on those scriptures He gave me...Rhema words

...the first one I heard was Rob Rufus. When I first heard Joseph Prince talk it was about 1 John 1:9..I said..he's a heretic for sure....and I shut him out completely....lol...my religious mind balked at what he said....

The Lord was faithful to me and took me around Prince to other people..... .each of them giving me a "part"..then it came to me and now I say.." How did I not see that?"..

....revelation is like that..don't you find?

I didn't know I was hyper-grace until I read it one day in Charisma Mag....who knew???....

I heard a Bob George teaching on the New Covenant, and I was like, YES! SOMEONE is FINALLY preaching this!!!

My experience is that I've always been a 'Grace' believer, ever since I was 8 \/. Growing up and into my adult years I've been around so many different streams of faith - but Grace always made sense and was never weird or out there and was completely compatible with all cultures, ages, etc.

That concept has matured, especially in the last 8 or 9 years.

In my capacity as JGIG, my primary focus has been in examining the beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement. I have written much on the New Covenant Gospel of Grace and what that actually means. Through these last several years, I've found areas even in what I've believed to be challenged - where was I mixing Law and Grace? Where were theological systems I was coming across mixing Law and Grace, formulas and Grace, mis-perceptions of God and His Law and Grace?

I take everything back to Scripture, and issues that are not clear, I'm willing to set aside and just let them be until God shows me clarity on an issue.

On the Core Issues, however, the Scriptures are completely clear. The Gospel of Grace and a bunch of the teachers out there preaching God's Good News are right on target.

That's a good thing. Both believers and unbelievers are being pointed to Christ and His Work.

Again, that's a GOOD THING, folks!

-JGIG

 

[ladylynn]

I too have stated a few times on threads that there are things that Prince and others for that matter have said that I don't agree with. But as far as preaching the pure gospel of the grace of Christ...to me ..he is bang on. He can find Jesus in every old testament scripture..even down to the Hebrew words themselves. He lifts up Jesus and His life and grace.

And I have not been listening to him that much in the last few years.. sometimes I do but not that often....... I post his videos because they are on youtube for those that are interested. There are literally tons of people now preaching the gospel of grace of Christ and each one has a certain understanding that brings more light in areas.

I can't get enough of the gospel of grace and truth. After mixing the law and grace together for so many years I now see how deadly it is to the Christian especially. Mixing law and grace is the way the devil trips most believers up. A person gets saved when they hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Gospels and especially in John and John 3:16 and Romans 5:1 and on through to Romans 8:1 and on through as God's love for us is written in the scriptures how God didn't spare His own Son but delivered Him up for us all..... we are engulfed and surrounded by this amazing love God has for us. As a child we come into it believing and trusting in the love of God in Christ. Walking on joyful loving promises.

Then there are the people who start taking the simplicity of the Gospel and adding to it the works aspect of what we do AFTER we are saved. They make what we 'do' or don't 'do' the essence of our faith and not Jesus Christ and what He did. Eyes taken off of Jesus and onto ourselves.

Using verses like; by their fruits you shall know them., branches will be burned., those who hold steadfast to the faith will be saved, faith without works is dead., Jesus said "I never knew you"., no idolator, liar, effeminate homosexual., murderer., those who endure to the end.... and soooo many more verses to the one who first heard the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ are soon bogged down by wrong interpretations of these verses because they base them on the works of the flesh and not the work of Christ on the Cross.

Even our very brethren here on these forums are snagged yet settled into this idea of works salvation. They have never basked in the truth of grace and what it means. Humans have a hard time seeing their weakness. Pride makes us be our own worst enemy. Christians even WISH they could let go and allow Jesus to be their sanctification but are afraid of that kind of grace. Afraid of that- hyper and false and easy believe - ISM. Our church taught us about allllllllllllllllllllllll the ISMS and easy-believe-ISM was one of them. ... narrow is the gate to heaven and few there beeeee.., and wide is the gate to destruction and many there beeeeee ....... Taking these verses to mean the gospel is not joyful good news but hard and difficult to take news.. They need to hear why it is good news and why His yoke is EASY and His burden is lite. Proper interpretation. ...

 

[crossnote]

I too have stated a few times on threads that there are things that Prince and others for that matter have said that I don't agree with. But as far as preaching the pure gospel of the grace of Christ...to me ..he is bang on. He can find Jesus in every old testament scripture..even down to the Hebrew words themselves. He lifts up Jesus and His life and grace.

And I have not been listening to him that much in the last few years.. sometimes I do but not that often....... I post his videos because they are on youtube for those that are interested. There are literally tons of people now preaching the gospel of grace of Christ and each one has a certain understanding that brings more light in areas.

If that is so,I don't see why any one would need to listen to Prince to hear about grace, since it's all over the bible.

 

[Gr8grace]

If that is so,I don't see why any one would need to listen to Prince to hear about grace, since it's all over the bible.

Crossnote, are you a pastor teacher? Because for me personally, I didn't understand grace until I "just happened" to run into a grace teacher with the gift of teacher.

I would still be stuck in religion and my do good thinking if I didn't "find" my right teacher................and I read the bible and went to bible training for pastors studies.

You can read the bible and interpret and teach what you read?...............like for instance, the Morsel of DIPPED bread that Jesus gave Judas...........you can read it and know why Jesus gave that morsel to Judas and why it was dipped? Because I can't, it needs to be taught to me.

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote, are you a pastor teacher? Because for me personally, I didn't understand grace until I "just happened" to run into a grace teacher with the gift of teacher.

I would still be stuck in religion and my do good thinking if I didn't "find" my right teacher................and I read the bible and went to bible training for pastors studies.

You can read the bible and interpret and teach what you read?...............like for instance, the Morsel of DIPPED bread that Jesus gave Judas...........you can read it and know why Jesus gave that morsel to Judas and why it was dipped? Because I can't, it needs to be taught to me.

Yes we need teachers. But we need to learn to check what a teacher says against God's Word otherwise you just may get stuck in a religion...that teacher's religion.

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote, are you a pastor teacher? Because for me personally, I didn't understand grace until I "just happened" to run into a grace teacher with the gift of teacher.

I would still be stuck in religion and my do good thinking if I didn't "find" my right teacher................and I read the bible and went to bible training for pastors studies.

You can read the bible and interpret and teach what you read?...............like for instance, the Morsel of DIPPED bread that Jesus gave Judas...........you can read it and know why Jesus gave that morsel to Judas and why it was dipped? Because I can't, it needs to be taught to me.

Yes we need teachers. But we need to learn to check what a teacher says against God's Word otherwise you just may get stuck in a religion...that teacher's religion.

Also Gr8 the concept of Grace is so obvious in Paul's writings whereas your example of the dipped morsel isn't.
So why are we being smothered with these certain teachers...Prince, Wommack, Farley, Rufus etc. almost in cult like fashion...it's scary.

 

[ladylynn]

Unlike my buddies here ... I do listen to Joseph Prince on a regular basis. I'm aware of what he preaches and am up to date. For one thing, like me, he believes in the eminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His bride the church as set forward in 1 Thess.4:13-18 And although many here on CC do not hold to this, I have always been convinced of it since first reading the Bible years ago. For many reasons but mostly because of the understanding of the complete work of Jesus Christ on the cross. His taking all judgment upon Himself for us His bride.

Also, Prince holds to the wonderful doctrines of the security of the believer presented in the Bible. Not all teachers and preaches do so I very much appreciate that too.

I'm not sure why there is such a hatred for JP but in order to understand that I'd have to find out WHY people think the things they do.,and I've seen already sooo often what people think they KNOW was based on a false report. Even believers here on CC have been judged based on some false report given or associated with what someone once said., or groups of someones. That if it is clearly followed out to the end., it would be shown clearly that the accusations are not true in many of the cases.

It's no wonder we are told not to judge our brothers and sisters. Just look at how the media can spin a story. We would all think what is being reported in the news was true if we hadn't known better. And yet even adults here can't see the forest from the trees and would rather think ill of someone if it would help validate their already set opinions. Again, another reason to learn about grace and how to give it out to our brothers and sisters here.

 

[ForthAngel]

Unlike my buddies here ... I do listen to Joseph Prince on a regular basis. I'm aware of what he preaches and am up to date. For one thing, like me, he believes in the eminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His bride the church as set forward in 1 Thess.4:13-18 And although many here on CC do not hold to this, I have always been convinced of it since first reading the Bible years ago. For many reasons but mostly because of the understanding of the complete work of Jesus Christ on the cross. His taking all judgment upon Himself for us His bride.

Also, Prince holds to the wonderful doctrines of the security of the believer presented in the Bible. Not all teachers and preaches do so I very much appreciate that too.

I'm quite happy to hear that he holds to the belief of eternal security. I wasn't aware of that.

I'm not sure why there is such a hatred for JP but in order to understand that I'd have to find out WHY people think the things they do.,and I've seen already sooo often what people think they KNOW was based on a false report. Even believers here on CC have been judged based on some false report given or associated with what someone once said., or groups of someones. That if it is clearly followed out to the end., it would be shown clearly that the accusations are not true in many of the cases.

No one hates Prince. We hate what he teaches. I used to watch him believe it or not. He doesn't preach the Gospel. He dances around the Gospel, and mentions the Gospel. He never explains the Gospel. It's like he assumes that everyone in his audience is already saved.

What it always boils down to is a bunch of empty words about some vague idea of grace and how God wants us to all be healthy and wealthy. Never hear repentance being preached. Never hear the Cross being preached. And any references to the Gospel are vague and very watered down. He doesn't use a bible when he preaches. He hardly ever reads scripture. When he does, he will often use it out of context and builds a sermon on one or two lines of text.

It's no wonder we are told not to judge our brothers and sisters. Just look at how the media can spin a story. We would all think what is being reported in the news was true if we hadn't known better. And yet even adults here can't see the forest from the trees and would rather think ill of someone if it would help validate their already set opinions. Again, another reason to learn about grace and how to give it out to our brothers and sisters here.

To the contrary: 1 Cor. 5 [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[SUP][a][/SUP] whom you are to judge?

 

[crossnote]

Do the 'Prince People' agree with this from Destined to Reign pg 134?...



That so far has been my biggest beef with what I know of his teachings.
If it is out of context, please explain.

 

[sondra333]

Hello Gr8grace,
Hope you are well, i was wondering about the morsel of dipped bread that Jesus gave Judas...never thought of this until i read what you had written and the first thing that came to me was that it was literally symbolizing His body, dipped in His blood the payment for sins (Satan) which i am trying to recall if he was within Judas at that moment...And as far as it being a (small) morsel sort of speak just once again said to me of our All-Mighty Heavenly Father's power so small and yet accomplished everything...if you would not mind would you share or direct me to someone if i don't know, for as i said i never thought upon it until now, thank you very much and Blessings from God to you.

 

[sondra333]

Hello Ladylynn,
Eyes upon our Lord dear lady you could not have said it better.... or how about this how far did you get changing your sins before u were saved? Okay so why is that different now for if you say within yourselves i have the power of Christ He strengthens me....Whom then did the works? love you sister take care

 

[ladylynn]

And just for the record., why is liking a particular teacher or preacher called a "cult" ???????? This is a highly ridiculous accusation to make on someone. I like many teachers and preachers and use many books they write. I like some more than others. I agree with some Bible teachers and disagree with some too. Just like people here on CC., I will read every word of some who post here and are excellent but will totally avoid the words of others.

Certain teachers are MY CUP OF TEA like the ones who don't feel it necessary to yell at me. I have been down enough roads to know God has called us each to be responsible for our own walk with Jesus.
We are also called to be students of the Bible to learn and to be able to give an answer for the hope that is in us.

For someone to continue to accuse me of "cult" behavior tempts me to be insulted. So if we go to church and like our Pastor and use things he says does that mean we are of a cult behavior? Ridiculous!! I agree with Gr8grace and do appreciate a good teacher and teachers that God has given to the church.

I believe we need to be teachable and able to learn as well as witness what Jesus has done in our lives. To make people afraid to associate themselves with liking a certain teacher is wrong imo. To throw a word like "Cult" around is also wrong imo.

I wish there was more time to hear more teachers but there is not enough time in my day. So I am picky with who I'm learning from at this particular time in life. God has blessed us with many ways to learn. Use different versions of the Bible., get a concordance, get a Vines Expository Dictionary., Get some study Bibles., get a Strong's Concordance., Listen to Bible preaching on CDs in your car and while you are home. Be in the company of brothers and sisters in Christ and do it regularly because being in the company of many helps us to also be discerning.

It's a good idea to use as many of those resources as God provides and as time allows. Don't be an "island" unto yourself and always read the Bible alone. But also read the Bible on your own and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and confirm with you what you have already learned from a teacher or preacher. This is proper and right. And also Biblical.

 

[crossnote]

And just for the record., why is liking a particular teacher or preacher called a "cult" ???????? This is a highly ridiculous accusation to make on someone. I like many teachers and preachers and use many books they write. I like some more than others. I agree with some Bible teachers and disagree with some too. Just like people here on CC., I will read every word of some who post here and are excellent but will totally avoid the words of others.

Certain teachers are MY CUP OF TEA like the ones who don't feel it necessary to yell at me. I have been down enough roads to know God has called us each to be responsible for our own walk with Jesus.
We are also called to be students of the Bible to learn and to be able to give an answer for the hope that is in us.

For someone to continue to accuse me of "cult" behavior tempts me to be insulted. So if we go to church and like our Pastor and use things he says does that mean we are of a cult behavior? Ridiculous!! I agree with Gr8grace and do appreciate a good teacher and teachers that God has given to the church.

I believe we need to be teachable and able to learn as well as witness what Jesus has done in our lives. To make people afraid to associate themselves with liking a certain teacher is wrong imo. To throw a word like "Cult" around is also wrong imo.

I wish there was more time to hear more teachers but there is not enough time in my day. So I am picky with who I'm learning from at this particular time in life. God has blessed us with many ways to learn. Use different versions of the Bible., get a concordance, get a Vines Expository Dictionary., Get some study Bibles., get a Strong's Concordance., Listen to Bible preaching on CDs in your car and while you are home. Be in the company of brothers and sisters in Christ and do it regularly because being in the company of many helps us to also be discerning.

It's a good idea to use as many of those resources as God provides and as time allows. Don't be an "island" unto yourself and always read the Bible alone. But also read the Bible on your own and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and confirm with you what you have already learned from a teacher or preacher. This is proper and right. And also Biblical.

Teachers in the Body of Christ is good. But every specialized movement have their 'certain' teachers and apparently this so called Hyper Grace movement is no different.
What makes it cult-like, is not so much the teachers but their starry eyed followers who can speak of no others, nor can they speak of other topics.
After over 40 years a Christian, the pattern is all too familiar. I'll let the conviction fall where it may.