Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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You could have just said we don't choose to pray because if we did pray, God ordained it.

Calvinists still have no biblical answer concerning Jonah. You can't take that story literally. You have to add to the story to make it fit Calvin's view.

I'll say it again, Calvin believed in infant baptism for regeneration. According to Galatians 1, Calvin is accursed from Christ. We are commanded to have nothing to do with him.

God ordains both the means and the end..therefore the prayer is effective, and is also ordained by God. No contradiction.
 

John146

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Exodus 32:9-14 [SUP] [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God changed His mind on destroying them, because Moses interceded on the their behalf.

God is touchable. God is reachable. If we would just have faith and call out to Him.
 

Grandpa

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Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The will is tied to the flesh in this chapter. Your free will is part of your carnal self.

You can't cause yourself to not be carnal by your own will.


What you can choose, if you are born again, is to lay your will aside and seek the will of God.

Those are your two choices. Your will be done. Or Gods Will be done. Gods Will isn't done by your understanding or your strength or your will. His Ways are far above our ways and His Thoughts are far above our thoughts.

Romans 8:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The will is tied to the flesh in this chapter. Your free will is part of your carnal self.

You can't cause yourself to not be carnal by your own will.


What you can choose, if you are born again, is to lay your will aside and seek the will of God.

Those are your two choices. Your will be done. Or Gods Will be done. Gods Will isn't done by your understanding or your strength or your will. His Ways are far above our ways and His Thoughts are far above our thoughts.

Romans 8:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
You still, of your own free will, chose to do this, or not do this..

Choice is never out of the equation. Maybe that is better word than will?? and maybe why people disagree, is it semantics?

God will never make you do things against your choice?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Exodus 32:9-14 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God changed His mind on destroying them, because Moses interceded on the their behalf.

God is touchable. God is reachable. If we would just have faith and call out to Him.
God gave a warning so we can chose. If he just forced us to repent, and did not give us a choice. it would be meaningless.

God will and omniscience is still in effect.

He said to pray anyway, Even though he knows what we need, He does it for our benefit not his. Same thing goes here.

He knew Nineveh would repent. But his order still went out. if they do not repent, they will die.. That did not change, nor did his knowledge they would do it anyway.

God was not surprised by the repentance of ninevah, He is not human.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The will is tied to the flesh in this chapter. Your free will is part of your carnal self.

You can't cause yourself to not be carnal by your own will.


What you can choose, if you are born again, is to lay your will aside and seek the will of God.

Those are your two choices. Your will be done. Or Gods Will be done. Gods Will isn't done by your understanding or your strength or your will. His Ways are far above our ways and His Thoughts are far above our thoughts.

Romans 8:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
The will is tied to the flesh in Romans 7 only in the context of being under the law of sin and death. We who walk by the spirit are not under that law, and therefore we are free to do GOD's will (as we will) because he enables us through his spirit (Romans 8).
 
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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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I wouldn't say God was surprised. Where does it say that God knew Nineveh would repent? Would that mean God lied? God did not say if you don't repent I'll destroy you. Don't change Scripture to fit your beliefs. Change your beliefs to fit Scripture.

God gave a warning so we can chose. If he just forced us to repent, and did not give us a choice. it would be meaningless.

God will and omniscience is still in effect.

He said to pray anyway, Even though he knows what we need, He does it for our benefit not his. Same thing goes here.

He knew Nineveh would repent. But his order still went out. if they do not repent, they will die.. That did not change, nor did his knowledge they would do it anyway.

God was not surprised by the repentance of ninevah, He is not human.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I wouldn't say God was surprised. Where does it say that God knew Nineveh would repent? Would that mean God lied? God did not say if you don't repent I'll destroy you. Don't change Scripture to fit your beliefs. Change your beliefs to fit Scripture.

Does it have to say it to know it is true?

Is God human? Why do we want to give god human characteristics.

If you want a human God,, have at it. My God knows all, and has known it all since the beginning of time. That's how he can prophesy, and how he knew what it would take to take care of the issues. and know how men would respond to he could put them in place to do his will
 
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sparkman

Guest
Since when does GOD's will trump man's will to reject him? Scripture witnesses the exact opposite - whosoever will.
Tell that to the Apostle Paul..who was knocked off his donkey when God decided to trump his free will concerning persecuting and killing Christians, and turned him into an instrument for his own purposes.

:)

What does Ephesians 1:11 say?

Ephesians 1:11 [SUP]11 [/SUP]In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Notice that God works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL. ALL THINGS includes salvation.

By the way, the monergistic perspective of Christianity is THE coherent one...it is PLAIN from Scripture that man is nothing but clay in God's hands. He can do NOTHING that God doesn't allow, and if God decides to change that person, they are changed.

Look at King Nebuchadnezzar. He was prideful and God turned him into the equivalent of a madman, causing him to eat grass and live like an animal..when God restored him, he was praising God...don't you think God can do that with ANYONE?

He knows human beings inside and out, and what makes them tick.

Do you think God has to ask permission to do whatever he wants to do in order to accomplish his will? You have a pretty pathetic view of God if you think that.

Notice this account..did God ask Nebuchadnezzar permission to humble him? NOOOOO....LOL...he simply DID it. Did he beg and plead with Nebuchadnezzar to come to faith and acknowledge Him? Did he woo him like a man woos his sweetheart, or did he simply just humble him, no matter what it took? How's that for irresistible grace? Can't he do the exact same thing to any human being? I know he did something very similar to humble me in my pride.

The Arminian position is a joke. God owns everything including our sorry behinds, and he doesn't need to ask permission to do anything. He is perfectly capable of humbling anyone he wants to, and he needs no permission to do it.

Daniel 4: 28 28All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29At the end of twelve months he was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30and the king answered and said, “Is not this great Babylon, which I have built by my mighty power as a royal residence and for the glory of my majesty?” 31While the words were still in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, “O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you, 32and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.” (notice the focus on GOD's WILL)33Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles’ feathers, and his nails were like birds’ claws.
Nebuchadnezzar Restored
34At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
35all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
36At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me. 37Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble (who is God not able to humble?).
 
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sparkman

Guest
Exodus 32:9-14 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God changed His mind on destroying them, because Moses interceded on the their behalf.

God is touchable. God is reachable. If we would just have faith and call out to Him.
Do you think anyone will surprise God by showing up in the resurrection (or heaven)?

Do you think that God has exhaustive foreknowledge?

Or, do you hold the open theist view that God is trapped in space and time, and lives life in sequence like we do?

Do you think in Genesis 8:1, when it says that God remembered Noah, that he actually forgot Noah? Or do you acknowledge that Scripture uses anthropomorphisms to describe God's actions, thoughts and emotions? If you believe God forgot Noah, do you think the ark could have sunk during that time period and God would have been oblivious to it and unable to help?

:)
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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Tell that to the Apostle Paul..who was knocked off his donkey when God decided to trump his free will concerning persecuting and killing Christians, and turned him into an instrument for his own purposes.

:)

What does Ephesians 1:11 say?

Ephesians 1:11 [SUP]11 [/SUP]In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Notice that God works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL. ALL THINGS includes salvation.

By the way, the monergistic perspective of Christianity is THE coherent one...it is PLAIN from Scripture that man is nothing but clay in God's hands. He can do NOTHING that God doesn't allow, and if God decides to change that person, they are changed.

Look at King Nebuchadnezzar. He was prideful and God turned him into the equivalent of a madman, causing him to eat grass and live like an animal..when God restored him, he was praising God...don't you think God can do that with ANYONE?

He knows human beings inside and out, and what makes them tick.

Do you think God has to ask permission to do whatever he wants to do in order to accomplish his will? You have a pretty pathetic view of God if you think that.

Notice this account..did God ask Nebuchadnezzar permission to humble him? NOOOOO....LOL...he simply DID it. Did he beg and plead with Nebuchadnezzar to come to faith and acknowledge Him? Did he woo him like a man woos his sweetheart, or did he simply just humble him, no matter what it took? How's that for irresistible grace? Can't he do the exact same thing to any human being? I know he did something very similar to humble me in my pride.

The Arminian position is a joke. God owns everything including our sorry behinds, and he doesn't need to ask permission to do anything. He is perfectly capable of humbling anyone he wants to, and he needs no permission to do it.
Paul had the free will to say no to GOD, but GOD knew his heart that he wouldn't. You have absolutely no evidence that GOD co-opted his will. Or that he co-opts anyone's will for that matter. Whosoever will...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Who said God would be surprised or God is trapped? Can God choose to limit His knowledge when working with man? Will God choose not to remember your sin in Heaven? Will God look upon you in Heaven remembering you as the sinner you were? Can God choose not to know certain events in the future?

Do you think anyone will surprise God by showing up in the resurrection (or heaven)?

Do you think that God has exhaustive foreknowledge?

Or, do you hold the open theist view that God is trapped in space and time, and lives life in sequence like we do?

Do you think in Genesis 8:1, when it says that God remembered Noah, that he actually forgot Noah? Or do you acknowledge that Scripture uses anthropomorphisms to describe God's actions, thoughts and emotions? If you believe God forgot Noah, do you think the ark could have sunk during that time period and God would have been oblivious to it and unable to help?

:)
 
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KennethC

Guest
Paul had the free will to say no to GOD, but GOD knew his heart that he wouldn't. You have absolutely no evidence that GOD co-opted his will. Or that he co-opts anyone's will for that matter. Whosoever will...
This is just what happens when people only want to read and go by the scriptures that support a grace only doctrine, but want to treat the many warnings to believers as if they don't exist !!!

As long as people are walking around with the mindset these scriptures to believers apply to us, but these scriptures to believers don't we will always have this issue !!!

I don't know how many times I have heard the excuses: this was only said to the Ephesians, this was only said to the Corinthians, this was only said to Hebrews, and such.

Do people not realize there is no different standards for believers no matter where they live ???
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Paul had the free will to say no to GOD, but GOD knew his heart that he wouldn't. You have absolutely no evidence that GOD co-opted his will. Or that he co-opts anyone's will for that matter. Whosoever will...
Actually Paul was on no position to say no to God. He was set apart from before he was born (Gal 1.15). YOU have no evidence for free will which is not a bibilical doctrine.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Actually Paul was on no position to say no to God. He was set apart from before he was born (Gal 1.15). YOU have no evidence for free will which is not a bibilical doctrine.
Whosoever will...
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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Whosoever, just means who ever. who ever will - just means those who did will.. I did ;) those who's hearts hvae been changed from stone to flesh (regenerated) freely will ;) It's not 'free' will.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Whosoever, just means who ever. who ever will - just means those who did will.. I did ;) those who's hearts hvae been changed from stone to flesh (regenerated) freely will ;) It's not 'free' will.
One can not be regenerate until their sins have been forgiven.

So they must have faith while still dead in their sin, In fact, this is why they have faith. because they realize their lost, hopeless state apart from God..

It is ok, they did not have faith on their own The HS convicted them of sin righteousness and judgment, He explained it to them ..
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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United Kingdom
One can not be regenerate until their sins have been forgiven.

So they must have faith while still dead in their sin, In fact, this is why they have faith. because they realize their lost, hopeless state apart from God..

It is ok, they did not have faith on their own The HS convicted them of sin righteousness and judgment, He explained it to them ..

and how can you have faith when you are dead ;)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
and how can you have faith when you are dead ;)

I have to Because if I do not have faith, I am still dead.. :p

Belief is not enough, even demons believe,