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L
I appreciate your honesty. I have just the opposite condition. I'm a good looking guy and women try to catch my eye all the time. I just don't want anything to do with any of them. I have more important things to attend to.
It's Friday night, and where most guys would just love to be out with a gal on a date, I am looking forward to laying on my heating pad to relieve my back pain and read the Bible until I fall asleep. Priorities.
It's Friday night, and where most guys would just love to be out with a gal on a date, I am looking forward to laying on my heating pad to relieve my back pain and read the Bible until I fall asleep. Priorities.
J
I've heard women in church and in meetings who quite proudly claim to be feminist. Which isn't the same as being feminist when I was a kid. I remember when it kicked in, I was a kid but there's a big difference in feminism these days.
I'm wondering, does men being MGTOW intimidate you because its men going their own way and passing up all the societal feminist junk? I'm sure it's hard for modern women to have their power taken away...
The main reason I'm MGTOW now is I'm discovering the real "me", as opposed to conforming to women. This is great! To be able to do what I want, instead of passing up on my desires just to please a woman and gratify her wants and desires.
I'm VERY happily doing the things I've always wanted to do, which by the way isn't harming anyone. I am sorry if this offends women, however we have the right to do as we please too. As I recall, Ephesians does not say that man is to submit to women unconditionally. Many women do NOT like this subject in church, sometimes it seems they would rather just rip that book out and forget it exists. I do realize that life has changed in the last 35-40 years, however I don't think this is what God had in mind. Just look how divorce is so common , and realize what decade this wave started. That kind of sums it up to me.
I'm wondering, does men being MGTOW intimidate you because its men going their own way and passing up all the societal feminist junk? I'm sure it's hard for modern women to have their power taken away...
The main reason I'm MGTOW now is I'm discovering the real "me", as opposed to conforming to women. This is great! To be able to do what I want, instead of passing up on my desires just to please a woman and gratify her wants and desires.
I'm VERY happily doing the things I've always wanted to do, which by the way isn't harming anyone. I am sorry if this offends women, however we have the right to do as we please too. As I recall, Ephesians does not say that man is to submit to women unconditionally. Many women do NOT like this subject in church, sometimes it seems they would rather just rip that book out and forget it exists. I do realize that life has changed in the last 35-40 years, however I don't think this is what God had in mind. Just look how divorce is so common , and realize what decade this wave started. That kind of sums it up to me.
Okay, I will attempt to address this point by point.
There is no ONE definition with "feminism." This creates problems when trying to generalize certain groups of women. I identify as a feminist, and men often presume that this means something aggressively anti-male. Feminism when you were a kid was basically second-wave feminism and was concerned about issues of equal opportunity, access, and fair treatment. Post ERA movement is largely third-wave feminism which is concerned with more philosophical issues.
And this is an example of you projecting onto me. I am not "intimidated" by MGTOW. I actually claimed to be "troubled" by it. I really have no personal investment in men giving into, getting over, or avoiding completely any kind of feminine power. I thought I made my feelings about power dynamics clear, but I'll take another pass at it. I find that society's concern with power to be completely opposed to God's view of things. Let's just start with Jesus as an example. The GREATEST demonstration of Christ's power was his death on the Cross. Of course, Satan (and all the surrounding world systems) thought THEY had the power when they were crucifying Him. Ooops...doesn't work that way with God. The bible says "WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN I AM STRONG."
The ultimate desire for power is found in the expression: "I'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven." The idea here being that serving God diminishes our power, but the sense of control and dominion we have when we chase Satan actually empowers us. Of course, the opposite is true. When I submit to God, I am completely empowered. When I "go my own way" (yeah, this was deliberate), I may have an externalized sense of control...at least for a while, but it's like smoke and quickly drifts away.
So, if a man wants to create a philosophy that allows him to be invulnerable and have a sense of his own power over that of womankind, he is free to do so. However, I don't find such a philosophy to be in keeping with Christian values.
(As an aside, there is really only ONE way that someone can take your power--if you allow it. If someone takes advantage of me and I give it to the Lord, I have not lost a darn thing. In fact, I'm probably in a MORE POWERFUL position than the "taker." Based on this, I'm not threatened by any particular male philosophy. I do, however, find it interesting when men are obsessed with taking away the power of women. It says MORE about the men and their fears than it does about the women).
(Aside 2: I find it interesting how reactive men are to the word "feminist." So reactive, that they ignore actual words and behaviors. Unlike many manipulative women who claim to be soft and sweet and demure and would be horrified at being called a "feminist", I have never used my feminine wiles to get a man to do my will. I don't cry and throw tantrums. I don't withhold affection or admiration. I don't say one thing to a man's face and then go behind his back. I'm even offended when people talk about how the "man is the head" but the "woman is the neck," because THAT analogy seems based on manipulation. I'm extremely egalitarian in relationships. In fact, I have such a strong dislike for manipulation, that I'd rather be manipulated myself than to do the same to another person. In other words, I'd rather suffer myself than cause suffering to someone I care about.)
And here's part of what troubles me regarding MGTOW--when it's equated with the bible and Christianity. MGTOW is not based on biblical ideas of power. It's based "getting out from under" the power of women, "getting over" the power of women, "subverting" the power of women, and ultimately "getting rid of" the power of women. It's viewing manhood IN RELATION TO women. It's no more focused on God than the man in the moon.
You even say it...it's about you. Not about gratifying the wants and desires of a woman. It's about you doing what you want. To me, that's not biblical Christianity. My life isn't about me doing what I want. It's about me doing what GOD WANTS. More often than not that means me subjecting myself out of love to another. For example, my brother thinks I'm nuts for getting up at 5:00am on a Saturday because that's when my friend Robyn shows up for our weekly coffee. He thinks I should put my foot down and tell her that I need to sleep in. But Robyn has a husband and family and a busy life. This is the best time for her. Because I love her and value our friendship, I GLADLY submit to HER SCHEDULE and her needs in this matter. I'm not "under her control" nor am I disempowered. I could stop it anytime. It is a privilege for me to be able to serve her in this small way. It is an opportunity for me to be like Christ. I approach romantic relationships in the exact same way. Serving others is always a privilege.
To me, the whole MGTOW seems fear-based. It's based on the fear that a woman will dictate over you. It's based on the fear that you'll serve a woman and what...not be served back? not be loved back? not get something out of it? be taken advantage of? This is not the biblical idea of manhood (nor womanhood, for that matter). Both men and women are made in the image of God. Both men and women are completely valuable and worthy of love because they are made in the image of God. If a man is defining himself as a man based on women, it's a recipe for disaster. If a man is looking to women to heal his wounds, it's a recipe for disaster. Men should be looking to GOD to establish them in their manhood and to heal them. God should be at the core of every Christian male's life. Being like Jesus should drive every Christian male to be a servant of others. It doesn't mean that service must happen in marriage. More likely than not, however, it will involve women in some capacity--mothers, sisters, friends, etc.
Ephesians does tell us to submit to one-another out of reverence for Christ. The way we REVERE Jesus is by submitting to each other. Let that one sink in. This is why I'd much rather be perceived as a "chump" by the world and sacrifice for others, than have a false sense of power manipulating, finagling, and making sure my needs are met regardless of others around me.
There is no ONE definition with "feminism." This creates problems when trying to generalize certain groups of women. I identify as a feminist, and men often presume that this means something aggressively anti-male. Feminism when you were a kid was basically second-wave feminism and was concerned about issues of equal opportunity, access, and fair treatment. Post ERA movement is largely third-wave feminism which is concerned with more philosophical issues.
And this is an example of you projecting onto me. I am not "intimidated" by MGTOW. I actually claimed to be "troubled" by it. I really have no personal investment in men giving into, getting over, or avoiding completely any kind of feminine power. I thought I made my feelings about power dynamics clear, but I'll take another pass at it. I find that society's concern with power to be completely opposed to God's view of things. Let's just start with Jesus as an example. The GREATEST demonstration of Christ's power was his death on the Cross. Of course, Satan (and all the surrounding world systems) thought THEY had the power when they were crucifying Him. Ooops...doesn't work that way with God. The bible says "WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN I AM STRONG."
The ultimate desire for power is found in the expression: "I'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven." The idea here being that serving God diminishes our power, but the sense of control and dominion we have when we chase Satan actually empowers us. Of course, the opposite is true. When I submit to God, I am completely empowered. When I "go my own way" (yeah, this was deliberate), I may have an externalized sense of control...at least for a while, but it's like smoke and quickly drifts away.
So, if a man wants to create a philosophy that allows him to be invulnerable and have a sense of his own power over that of womankind, he is free to do so. However, I don't find such a philosophy to be in keeping with Christian values.
(As an aside, there is really only ONE way that someone can take your power--if you allow it. If someone takes advantage of me and I give it to the Lord, I have not lost a darn thing. In fact, I'm probably in a MORE POWERFUL position than the "taker." Based on this, I'm not threatened by any particular male philosophy. I do, however, find it interesting when men are obsessed with taking away the power of women. It says MORE about the men and their fears than it does about the women).
(Aside 2: I find it interesting how reactive men are to the word "feminist." So reactive, that they ignore actual words and behaviors. Unlike many manipulative women who claim to be soft and sweet and demure and would be horrified at being called a "feminist", I have never used my feminine wiles to get a man to do my will. I don't cry and throw tantrums. I don't withhold affection or admiration. I don't say one thing to a man's face and then go behind his back. I'm even offended when people talk about how the "man is the head" but the "woman is the neck," because THAT analogy seems based on manipulation. I'm extremely egalitarian in relationships. In fact, I have such a strong dislike for manipulation, that I'd rather be manipulated myself than to do the same to another person. In other words, I'd rather suffer myself than cause suffering to someone I care about.)
And here's part of what troubles me regarding MGTOW--when it's equated with the bible and Christianity. MGTOW is not based on biblical ideas of power. It's based "getting out from under" the power of women, "getting over" the power of women, "subverting" the power of women, and ultimately "getting rid of" the power of women. It's viewing manhood IN RELATION TO women. It's no more focused on God than the man in the moon.
You even say it...it's about you. Not about gratifying the wants and desires of a woman. It's about you doing what you want. To me, that's not biblical Christianity. My life isn't about me doing what I want. It's about me doing what GOD WANTS. More often than not that means me subjecting myself out of love to another. For example, my brother thinks I'm nuts for getting up at 5:00am on a Saturday because that's when my friend Robyn shows up for our weekly coffee. He thinks I should put my foot down and tell her that I need to sleep in. But Robyn has a husband and family and a busy life. This is the best time for her. Because I love her and value our friendship, I GLADLY submit to HER SCHEDULE and her needs in this matter. I'm not "under her control" nor am I disempowered. I could stop it anytime. It is a privilege for me to be able to serve her in this small way. It is an opportunity for me to be like Christ. I approach romantic relationships in the exact same way. Serving others is always a privilege.
To me, the whole MGTOW seems fear-based. It's based on the fear that a woman will dictate over you. It's based on the fear that you'll serve a woman and what...not be served back? not be loved back? not get something out of it? be taken advantage of? This is not the biblical idea of manhood (nor womanhood, for that matter). Both men and women are made in the image of God. Both men and women are completely valuable and worthy of love because they are made in the image of God. If a man is defining himself as a man based on women, it's a recipe for disaster. If a man is looking to women to heal his wounds, it's a recipe for disaster. Men should be looking to GOD to establish them in their manhood and to heal them. God should be at the core of every Christian male's life. Being like Jesus should drive every Christian male to be a servant of others. It doesn't mean that service must happen in marriage. More likely than not, however, it will involve women in some capacity--mothers, sisters, friends, etc.
Ephesians does tell us to submit to one-another out of reverence for Christ. The way we REVERE Jesus is by submitting to each other. Let that one sink in. This is why I'd much rather be perceived as a "chump" by the world and sacrifice for others, than have a false sense of power manipulating, finagling, and making sure my needs are met regardless of others around me.
Well Lost Sheep is seeking right now and just feels this way from his personal experience and I'm sure that just like you didn't like to have being "intimidated and not wanting your power taken" projected onto, you Black Sheep doesn't need you to project "It's based on the fear that a woman will dictate over you. It's based on the fear that you'll serve a woman and what...not be served back? not be loved back? not get something out of it? be taken advantage of?" projected onto him. Honestly I think you are coming across very judgmentally and could easily be a "turn off" for those who are truly seeking. I think it's a gift God blessed him with, because from what I've gathered from his post on here (not just this one, but many others as well) is that the whole "sex thing" was never what he was into. As much as you talk about loving everyone and never judging anyone or anything for any reason on here, this post seemed very opposite to that. This man has come on here with a sincere attitude of seeking God and sharing his viewpoints, and you come at him like this instead of with the love and grace you're always preaching. I think only because his position on sex disagrees with you feminist outlook.
I think it's great he feels this way and honestly feel that God has big plans for this guy.
I think it's great he feels this way and honestly feel that God has big plans for this guy.
C
If for instance their kids got stolen from them by a feminist and a feminist society they simply use their brains.
If you're so happy to have escaped a hell of a marriage you need to go your own way for at least a while to maybe sometimes marry again or not. My grandma was a christian and went her own way when she was finally divorced after dozens of times been cheated on. She loved it that she could do what she wanted which was not selfish. She served God and others, just didn't have a controlling husband anymore. The reverend asked her to marry him and she said even if you decorate my house with gold I will never do that again. I love it too to go my own way and not be trapped in a monstrous marriage and I use my brain. It gives a lot of trouble when you have kids, which I don't want. You can lay your life down for others. It doesn't need to be a partner.
If you're so happy to have escaped a hell of a marriage you need to go your own way for at least a while to maybe sometimes marry again or not. My grandma was a christian and went her own way when she was finally divorced after dozens of times been cheated on. She loved it that she could do what she wanted which was not selfish. She served God and others, just didn't have a controlling husband anymore. The reverend asked her to marry him and she said even if you decorate my house with gold I will never do that again. I love it too to go my own way and not be trapped in a monstrous marriage and I use my brain. It gives a lot of trouble when you have kids, which I don't want. You can lay your life down for others. It doesn't need to be a partner.
L
I can only speak from MY experience. Mine are not others. Others may have had similar experiences, but not the same, so what is right for me is only right for me.
In MY experiences, relationships, no matter how they were portrayed, were a power struggle. Perhaps not overt and in your face, but there was always a tit-for-tat going on. They were transactional - "you give me this therefore I will give you that".
Again, and only in MY experiences, the only thing any of the women had in terms of what they thought they could use to try and wrestle power form me (even though I have NEVER wanted to have a power play with women), is access to them sexually. "Oh you hurt my feelings, so I'm going to cut you off". "Oh, you don't like doing what I like so I won't do what you like". "Oh you turned down my sexual advance so I'm going to turn down your next five to show you", "Well if you won't "take care of your business" I'll find another man who will".
Now, like I stated, none of this was in-your-face or overt, but it was definitely the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and once each woman I was involved with realized she could not use her sexuality to manipulate me me or direct my behavior to suit her needs, THAT is when the relationships started to get nasty and cruel.
So I am MGTOW because I know very well that I have no chance of ever meeting a woman who feels the same way about relationships that I do - that has the same disdain for physical affection yet a longing for a spiritual and emotional connection, has no desire for children, ever...and who can look beyond my past which includes a healthy "body count" in the military and a stint in prison for manslaughter plus a prison murder in self defense. I don't "hate" women. Honestly I don't. I adore them. To me though, they are like a nuclear bomb going off - beautiful to look at and behold the power therein...but don't get too close to them because they aren't safe to be around.
In MY experiences, relationships, no matter how they were portrayed, were a power struggle. Perhaps not overt and in your face, but there was always a tit-for-tat going on. They were transactional - "you give me this therefore I will give you that".
Again, and only in MY experiences, the only thing any of the women had in terms of what they thought they could use to try and wrestle power form me (even though I have NEVER wanted to have a power play with women), is access to them sexually. "Oh you hurt my feelings, so I'm going to cut you off". "Oh, you don't like doing what I like so I won't do what you like". "Oh you turned down my sexual advance so I'm going to turn down your next five to show you", "Well if you won't "take care of your business" I'll find another man who will".
Now, like I stated, none of this was in-your-face or overt, but it was definitely the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and once each woman I was involved with realized she could not use her sexuality to manipulate me me or direct my behavior to suit her needs, THAT is when the relationships started to get nasty and cruel.
So I am MGTOW because I know very well that I have no chance of ever meeting a woman who feels the same way about relationships that I do - that has the same disdain for physical affection yet a longing for a spiritual and emotional connection, has no desire for children, ever...and who can look beyond my past which includes a healthy "body count" in the military and a stint in prison for manslaughter plus a prison murder in self defense. I don't "hate" women. Honestly I don't. I adore them. To me though, they are like a nuclear bomb going off - beautiful to look at and behold the power therein...but don't get too close to them because they aren't safe to be around.
