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Isaiah 53v10: "...when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..."
2Cor 5v21: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us..."
1Peter 3v18: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh..."
Acts 2v27: "For You will not leave my soul in Hades..."
QED!
2Cor 5v21: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us..."
1Peter 3v18: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh..."
Acts 2v27: "For You will not leave my soul in Hades..."
QED!
Amen, the determinate counsel of God
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Mat 20:18-19, Luke 24:25-27, Mark 9:31, Isaiah 53:1-12, Acts 3:18)
Acts 2:24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved (Psalm 16:8)
Acts 2:26
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad;
moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: (Psalm 16:9)
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
Acts 2:28
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
(Psalm 16:11)
Further expounded upon in Acts 13:33-38 as it is in Acts 2:29-36 (next)
Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (Psalm 132:11)
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Luke 24:48)
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,
and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35
Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psalm 110:1, Matthew 22:41-46)
Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord (as in the above )
No man could answer him Matthew 22:46 The apostles expound on this Acts 2:36
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
They knew not the voices of the prophets
Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,
because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day,
they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Acts 13:28
And though they found no cause of death in him,
yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. (Luke 23:14-25)
Acts 13:29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him,
they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead:
Acts 13:31
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem,
who are his witnesses unto the people.
Acts 13:32
And we declare unto you glad tidings,
how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm , Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
(Psalm 2:7 being tied in with Heb 5:5-6 & Psalm 110:4 with Heb 8:4 accordingin to the priest for ever)
Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption,
he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David (Isaiah 55:3, see verse 4 also)
Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm (Psalm 16:18),
Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep,
and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:37
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. (Psalm 16:18)
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(Luke 23:34, Acts 3:12)
Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
The gospel is in Isaiah (even as Philip preached Christ to the eunuch from the same)
being a testimony (as was Moses to the things that would be spoken after.
If we bring back in Isaiah 55:3 the sure mercies of David are given him
Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;
and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Then here see 'as concerning' this (and on 'what wise' he has said)
Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption,
he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Be it known unto you 'therefore'
that through him is preached this
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Even as the next verse after Isaiah 53:3 states what God has given him for
Isaiah 55:4
Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people,
a leader and commander to the people. (John 8:18, Heb 2:10)
As Hebrews expounds upon him as the captain of their salvation
Heb 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things,
in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Isaiah 55:4
Behold, I have given him for a witness (John 8:18, Rev 1:5)
Rev 1:5
From Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
There are some surrounding the same, good to have or be equipped with to show forth Christ that the word of God be glorified in them that hear it according to the pattern laid out.
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Mat 20:18-19, Luke 24:25-27, Mark 9:31, Isaiah 53:1-12, Acts 3:18)
Acts 2:24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved (Psalm 16:8)
Acts 2:26
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad;
moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: (Psalm 16:9)
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
Acts 2:28
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
(Psalm 16:11)
Further expounded upon in Acts 13:33-38 as it is in Acts 2:29-36 (next)
Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (Psalm 132:11)
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Luke 24:48)
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,
and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35
Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psalm 110:1, Matthew 22:41-46)
Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord (as in the above )
No man could answer him Matthew 22:46 The apostles expound on this Acts 2:36
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
They knew not the voices of the prophets
Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,
because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day,
they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Acts 13:28
And though they found no cause of death in him,
yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. (Luke 23:14-25)
Acts 13:29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him,
they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead:
Acts 13:31
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem,
who are his witnesses unto the people.
Acts 13:32
And we declare unto you glad tidings,
how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm , Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
(Psalm 2:7 being tied in with Heb 5:5-6 & Psalm 110:4 with Heb 8:4 accordingin to the priest for ever)
Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption,
he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David (Isaiah 55:3, see verse 4 also)
Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm (Psalm 16:18),
Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep,
and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:37
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. (Psalm 16:18)
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(Luke 23:34, Acts 3:12)
Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
The gospel is in Isaiah (even as Philip preached Christ to the eunuch from the same)
being a testimony (as was Moses to the things that would be spoken after.
If we bring back in Isaiah 55:3 the sure mercies of David are given him
Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;
and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Then here see 'as concerning' this (and on 'what wise' he has said)
Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption,
he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Be it known unto you 'therefore'
that through him is preached this
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Even as the next verse after Isaiah 53:3 states what God has given him for
Isaiah 55:4
Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people,
a leader and commander to the people. (John 8:18, Heb 2:10)
As Hebrews expounds upon him as the captain of their salvation
Heb 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things,
in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Isaiah 55:4
Behold, I have given him for a witness (John 8:18, Rev 1:5)
Rev 1:5
From Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
There are some surrounding the same, good to have or be equipped with to show forth Christ that the word of God be glorified in them that hear it according to the pattern laid out.
I think the Lord Jesus Christ absolutely did suffer the penalty of sin.
What I was saying, trying to say, was that the Lord didn't suffer permanent separation from God, or spiritual death. I think that is what spiritual death is, PERMANENT separation from God.
I think that Spiritual Death will be the consequence of some peoples sin, but not all people. Those with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will not experience it. That is my belief.
What I was saying, trying to say, was that the Lord didn't suffer permanent separation from God, or spiritual death. I think that is what spiritual death is, PERMANENT separation from God.
I think that Spiritual Death will be the consequence of some peoples sin, but not all people. Those with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will not experience it. That is my belief.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,which means God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,so He is fully God,and fully man,and can speak either as God,or as a man,when on earth.
He spoke as a man when a man called Him good Master,and He said,there is none good but God,which He was saying,that He only did good,because God is causing Him to do good.
Jesus was speaking as a man in the garden,when He asked the Father if it were possible for that cup to pass from Him,but if not,He is doing the will of the Father.
Jesus said that when He goes to the cross,that the Father will not leave Him,which on the cross He said,Father in to your hands I commend My spirit.
Jesus was speaking as a man when He cried out,My God,why have you forsaken Me,and because the sins of the world were placed upon Him,He must of felt what it would be like to be separated from God,where He never felt that before,which does not mean that He felt what someone would feel like to be eternally separate from God,but felt like you or me,before we came to God,which before the cross,He always felt the Spirit,and the peace,and joy,and love,of the Spirit.
So it was only a feeling the man Christ Jesus had,because He knew in reality that the Father would not leave Him,in which He said,Father in to your hands I commend My spirit.
Like in the garden,when He prayed if the cup could pass from Him,it was only a feeling,because in reality He knew He was going to the cross to do the will of the Father.
He spoke as a man when a man called Him good Master,and He said,there is none good but God,which He was saying,that He only did good,because God is causing Him to do good.
Jesus was speaking as a man in the garden,when He asked the Father if it were possible for that cup to pass from Him,but if not,He is doing the will of the Father.
Jesus said that when He goes to the cross,that the Father will not leave Him,which on the cross He said,Father in to your hands I commend My spirit.
Jesus was speaking as a man when He cried out,My God,why have you forsaken Me,and because the sins of the world were placed upon Him,He must of felt what it would be like to be separated from God,where He never felt that before,which does not mean that He felt what someone would feel like to be eternally separate from God,but felt like you or me,before we came to God,which before the cross,He always felt the Spirit,and the peace,and joy,and love,of the Spirit.
So it was only a feeling the man Christ Jesus had,because He knew in reality that the Father would not leave Him,in which He said,Father in to your hands I commend My spirit.
Like in the garden,when He prayed if the cup could pass from Him,it was only a feeling,because in reality He knew He was going to the cross to do the will of the Father.
F
No, Jesus did not suffer permanent separation from God.
Spiritual death is a consequence of the fall. It is the absence of the presence of the spiritual life of God in the spirit of man. It is all of mankinds default setting.
Absent the resurrected life of Christ, man remains spiritually dead.
Those in Christ are the only ones who experience spiritual life.
G
It was a substitutionary spiritual death. Not a permanent spiritual death. And It was His humanity that paid the price, that was forsaken, that took the Judgement......Not His deity.
We deserve permanent spiritual death we are not in a state of perfection and impeccability.. Jesus Christ died a substitutionary spiritual death in our place as perfect humanity. We are not perfect humanity.
This is why we see the darkness for 3 hours. We don't know the "mechanics" or the way Jesus Christ satisfied the Fathers justice............I suspect that it was way worse than what ever our imaginations can come up with...........For both the Father and the Son.
We deserve permanent spiritual death we are not in a state of perfection and impeccability.. Jesus Christ died a substitutionary spiritual death in our place as perfect humanity. We are not perfect humanity.
This is why we see the darkness for 3 hours. We don't know the "mechanics" or the way Jesus Christ satisfied the Fathers justice............I suspect that it was way worse than what ever our imaginations can come up with...........For both the Father and the Son.
C
I was taught it meant His Spirit died and was forsaken by the Father, but that can't be true. He is One. The universe would have collapsed. Then I thought it meant that the Father had forsaken Him as a human, His soul, but not His Spirit. I first thought His soul died but His soul He didn't leave in Hades. I think the fleshly part was cut off, what He as a human wanted, He didn't want to die and was tempted by the devil. Like with circumcision or the seed that has to die to bring forth fruit. The seed doesn't die though, only the outside.
He was made perfect through suffering.
He was made perfect through suffering.
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How is a substitutionary spiritual death different from regular spiritual death?
Substitutionary is just temporary?
I agree with everything you guys are saying with the exception of the spiritual death of the Lord Jesus on the Cross.
I'm going to need several scriptures detailing this. You have scripture in support of this??
Substitutionary is just temporary?
I agree with everything you guys are saying with the exception of the spiritual death of the Lord Jesus on the Cross.
I'm going to need several scriptures detailing this. You have scripture in support of this??
Scriptures does not teach He knew all things, so then don't assume that He did. Jesus Himself testifies that what He knows and teaches is only that which His Father gave Him. Jesus said He did not know the Hour of His Return, that His Father in Heaven knew that information. Jesus in the Garden asked if this cup could be passed from Him, He asked that because He wanted His Father in Heaven to pass that cup from Him. If He would have known that cup could not have been passed from Him, He would never have asked His Father for it to happen. Yes He knew He was going to have to go through all that He was going to have to go through, He was asking His Father for that cup to pass from Him, at that moment, to give Him more time to teach and be with His Disciples, He only was asking God to postpone it by asking to pass this cup from Him. But my point is He did not know if He would or would not have passed it from Him, that was up to the Father in Heaven.
Jesus His entire life felt the presence of His Father with Him. The Father the very moment Jesus took on the sins of the world, could not look upon Him, and left Him. Jesus realizing that His Father had left Him, said what He did, In all likelihood, He did not know the Father would leave Him, until He did. Which in itself shows a lot of Mercy from the Father. Better not to tell Him He will be leaving Him, until He actually did leave Him.
^i^
Jesus His entire life felt the presence of His Father with Him. The Father the very moment Jesus took on the sins of the world, could not look upon Him, and left Him. Jesus realizing that His Father had left Him, said what He did, In all likelihood, He did not know the Father would leave Him, until He did. Which in itself shows a lot of Mercy from the Father. Better not to tell Him He will be leaving Him, until He actually did leave Him.
^i^
G
There is real spiritual death, the one you and all of us know very well. Separation from God in a state of sin.
Jesus Christ was separated from the Father in a state of perfection and impeccability. A substitution for us.
All the while Jesus Christ was bearing our sins he remained perfect,impeccable and without sin.
We have a cause and effect. Adam's sin resulted in real spiritual death for all mankind, the result was Christ's substitionary spiritual death on the Cross for mankind.
Romans 5:12-21~~man kinds real spiritual death.
Romans 5:8~~Christ's substitution for man kinds real spiritual death.
His was the only spiritual death in History that was in the state of perfection and impeccability and without personal sin.
Adam went from perfection to imperfection. Jesus Christ remained perfect before,during and after the cross.
E
Oh I see. You think it is permanent.
Sorry, I do not ever remember hearing this before..and would explain why I am confused..lol
to me, Death means separation.
Physical death is separation of the soul from the body.
Spiritual death is separation of a person from God.
one who is ressurected, has his body and soul re-united.
One who gets eternal life.. Has his soul re-united with God..
the only permanent death is the second death.. This is eternal separation from god.
Sorry, I do not ever remember hearing this before..and would explain why I am confused..lol
to me, Death means separation.
Physical death is separation of the soul from the body.
Spiritual death is separation of a person from God.
one who is ressurected, has his body and soul re-united.
One who gets eternal life.. Has his soul re-united with God..
the only permanent death is the second death.. This is eternal separation from god.
I at least understand your position now.
I still don't agree that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered spiritual death but I see how someone could infer it.
I suppose the way I think of it is we were spiritually dead before we came to Christ but He has made us Spiritually Alive. If that Spirit died that made us Alive that would be it, permanent.
Same with our body. When whatever makes our body alive dies that's it, permanent.
Whatever comes afterward will be different. Whether it be a body or a spirit. Or both.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I still don't agree that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered spiritual death but I see how someone could infer it.
I suppose the way I think of it is we were spiritually dead before we came to Christ but He has made us Spiritually Alive. If that Spirit died that made us Alive that would be it, permanent.
Same with our body. When whatever makes our body alive dies that's it, permanent.
Whatever comes afterward will be different. Whether it be a body or a spirit. Or both.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
E
I agree, it is easier to see each others positions now. where as before we were not sure.. and that probably led to confusion
I guess I see it this way.
The penalty of sin is death. In adam all die.
Because of sin, all men are dead (spiritually separated from God)
Unless he is born again (made alive in Christ) He will remain spiritually dead forever.
No death is permanent. except for the second death, Even physical death is not permanent