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eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is one who is snared.
IF Good works are required... Then good works save us.
IF Good works do not save us, then good works are not required..(this does not mean they will never happen)
Did He, Or Didn't He?
- Thread starter Budman
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This is one who is snared.
IF Good works are required... Then good works save us.
IF Good works do not save us, then good works are not required..(this does not mean they will never happen)
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
k, i haven't read the whole thread (sorry, guys!) but i'm gonna put this in terms of my closest human relationship--
my husband.
i like to keep what my grandmother called 'short accounts' with my husband. so when i become aware i've offended him, i apologize. i'll even bother him at work to do it. not because i think he'll hold a grudge, but because i love him and don't want anything interfering with the closeness we share.
have i been justified by the blood of Christ? absolutely! will anything change it? never.
yet when i become aware i have offended our Holy God, i want to be quick to apologize and ask for help in not repeating said offense.
and, you know? it also makes me aware of how much i've been forgiven and helps me be quicker to forgive others. it makes me more compassionate toward the failings and frailties of others as i see my own more clearly.
Right. Because confession stops being required, and starts being our desire.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Gods children will learn these things.
But if your not Gods children. These things are useless.. They will never save you, Make you more saved, or keep you from losing your salvation.
see, your so close, You have the bearing fruit part down just right, Now if you can get the getting the initial washing part down right.. You may finally have a light pop on and say, WOW,, Now I get it!! It is not of me, IT IS ALL OF GOD.
and when someone gets this, when that light goes on, the Bible , especially the N.T. will come alive!!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
k, i haven't read the whole thread (sorry, guys!) but i'm gonna put this in terms of my closest human relationship--
my husband.
i like to keep what my grandmother called 'short accounts' with my husband. so when i become aware i've offended him, i apologize. i'll even bother him at work to do it. not because i think he'll hold a grudge, but because i love him and don't want anything interfering with the closeness we share.
have i been justified by the blood of Christ? absolutely! will anything change it? never.
yet when i become aware i have offended our Holy God, i want to be quick to apologize and ask for help in not repeating said offense.
and, you know? it also makes me aware of how much i've been forgiven and helps me be quicker to forgive others. it makes me more compassionate toward the failings and frailties of others as i see my own more clearly.
I love your example sis, It is a great example of how a child of God loves.
Now. lets all pray your husband loves you unconditionally as God loved the church, And if you run into an issue where you are so affected emotionally (say like a death in the family) and you go a whole year without confessing even one sin to your husband, even though you Know you have sinned greatly against him,
You husband will prove his love to you by not kicking you out of his family. But loving you more. so when you do get your head back on right, you will love him even more..
These people who want to make God kick us out if we do not repent. They do not share the love of God.. they want to earn and work to earn it.. God rejects those things outright, He want to love you..
He proved that on the cross. when you were his enemy.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
lol.. Aint that the truth BroRight. Because confession stops being required, and starts being our desire.
We are saved because of faith.
The fruit of this faith is a transformed life and good works.
If we do not put into action the gift of life we have been given, it will die in our hearts.
This was said by someone
"Christians fall away because of people like you"
Now this was said by someone who believes is OSAS, so they are denying their own beliefs.
The problem is obedience is about discipleship and through obedience we change. Without obedience we can never achieve it all, but through obedience we grow and become something different, in the image of Christ we can in the end perfectly obey.
The power of this process is faith, which God uses to justify us, and keep us going in the right direction. Sin will destroy this faith and destroy the work in our lives, so it is a battle, which we all need to help one another in.
There are those that hate this reality and wish to slander and defame any who preach obedience and transformation, but this has always been the case, and will always be, for the enemy is always at work in our midst.
The fruit of this faith is a transformed life and good works.
If we do not put into action the gift of life we have been given, it will die in our hearts.
This was said by someone
"Christians fall away because of people like you"
Now this was said by someone who believes is OSAS, so they are denying their own beliefs.
The problem is obedience is about discipleship and through obedience we change. Without obedience we can never achieve it all, but through obedience we grow and become something different, in the image of Christ we can in the end perfectly obey.
The power of this process is faith, which God uses to justify us, and keep us going in the right direction. Sin will destroy this faith and destroy the work in our lives, so it is a battle, which we all need to help one another in.
There are those that hate this reality and wish to slander and defame any who preach obedience and transformation, but this has always been the case, and will always be, for the enemy is always at work in our midst.
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FreeNChrist
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Then your not saved, Your pseudo saved according to how well you do the WORK of abiding in Christ.
You get all the credit, because you did the work and stood right there with him..
I want saved, I do not want wishy washy salvation which is no salvation at all.
I do not want to trust myself to have the ability to abide completely in Christ, I want to trust God to be by my side and never let me go as he promised.
Right. Because confession stops being required, and starts being our desire.
That's like saying moving our lips stops being required to speak, and starts being our desire.
FROM SCRIPTURE:
[I believe the Scripture is the Inspired Word of God, and is given to us for a Purpose]
Revelation 3:11) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 .) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 .) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 .) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 .) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 .) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 2:4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 .) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 .) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 .) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 .) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 .) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 .) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 .) For there is no respect of persons with God.
2 Corinthians 5:6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 .) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 .) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 .) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 .) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
People just confuse Salvation and Sanctification......................and that is a dangerous thing to do in my opinion...........anyway...........this is an old argument, and people will not change regardless...........
[I believe the Scripture is the Inspired Word of God, and is given to us for a Purpose]
Revelation 3:11) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 .) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 .) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 .) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 .) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 .) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 2:4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 .) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 .) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 .) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 .) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 .) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 .) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 .) For there is no respect of persons with God.
2 Corinthians 5:6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 .) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 .) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 .) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 .) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
People just confuse Salvation and Sanctification......................and that is a dangerous thing to do in my opinion...........anyway...........this is an old argument, and people will not change regardless...........
You really have no clue how much of a Calvinist you are. It permeates your thinking.
1 John 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
It is because of verse 1 and 2 that verse 3 happens...we are being cleansed by believing ....after we see Christ in verse 2..
We are transformed by beholding Christ and it happens by the Spirit - not self-effort by the will of the flesh as taught by works-salvationsits.
This is how we are changed..by "beholding the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord " and this is done by the Spirit of the Lord...we are transformed.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
are being transformed = present tense and passive voice
present tense = continuous action
passive voice = an action happening to you from an outside force - not you doing the action
This "being transformed" word is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount with Moses and Elijah and was "transfigured" before the 3 disciples. Jesus manifested outwardly who He already was on the inside of Him.
Beholding Christ within us and in the word .... we see Him as in a mirror - we see ourselves in Him...this is how we change to become outwardly who we already are in Him.
This is the true Christian life and it is all based on Him and His life in us
[SUP]1 [/SUP] See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
It is because of verse 1 and 2 that verse 3 happens...we are being cleansed by believing ....after we see Christ in verse 2..
We are transformed by beholding Christ and it happens by the Spirit - not self-effort by the will of the flesh as taught by works-salvationsits.
This is how we are changed..by "beholding the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord " and this is done by the Spirit of the Lord...we are transformed.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
are being transformed = present tense and passive voice
present tense = continuous action
passive voice = an action happening to you from an outside force - not you doing the action
This "being transformed" word is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount with Moses and Elijah and was "transfigured" before the 3 disciples. Jesus manifested outwardly who He already was on the inside of Him.
Beholding Christ within us and in the word .... we see Him as in a mirror - we see ourselves in Him...this is how we change to become outwardly who we already are in Him.
This is the true Christian life and it is all based on Him and His life in us
P
psychomom
Guest
er....EG.... do you happen to know my beloved husband??
in my opinion, he's the dearest man to walk this earth, save One. and that's exactly what he does
hmmm... where could he have learned it?
They simply do not understand Sanctification. They remain Carnal Christians as Paul spoke of, and have not yet become Spiritual Christians.............pray that they will eventually grow in SPIRITUAL understanding of Scripture.
They can not see past the Carnal wall of the Law, and accuse others of being "Legalists." When, it is they who are stumbling at the Stumbling Stone, for they have yet to grow into Spiritual understanding, and receive Spiritual sight.
E
ember
Guest
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Faith, Greek Pistis - being FULLY ASSURED Being CONFIDENT, Having a TRUST is someone or something based on proof, What can be trusted.
Yes it is, BECAUSE of what I just posted above and what the word means, It is not mere belief, Just because I believe something, does not mean I trust it, Am fully persuaded it will happen, Am confident in whatever it is, and that it is a trustworthy thing which earns my faith.
Faith can move mountains, Belief is not enough to empower us to take one step.
It never had life to begin with, period. or it would have worked. The fact that it never was put to work proves it was not faith period.
I never said they would lose salvation, I said they would walk away.. Again as always you are so proud you think you know what everything thinks or says,
I said it BECAUSE I HAVE WINTESSED IT, I ACTUALLY DID IT MYSELF ALSO..
The problem with obedience is if it is force (required) it is not obedience, It is a fake religious work which may last for awhile. but will never sustain itself.
thus we have to lower our standards (water down the law)
Hide our sin (how many pastors, leaders and people have we known we thought walked with God only to find they had a major hidden sin? Why did they hide it if we can be open?
walk away and give up completely, Which I have witnessed sadly so often in my life.
Obedience which is not required but is wanted is different,, If I know my father has my best interest in heart, I want to obey him, because it will benefit me, I will also understand, if I mess up. I hurt myself (hopefully just me) and maybe others, I DESIRE TO CONFESS AND GET MY SIN ISSUE RESOLVED.
I go to my abba father, because he is my daddy, not my judge.
If sin destroys faith, it was never faith to begin with.
You do not have an assurance, a confidence and a trust in someone, then spend you life hating on that person by sinning against that person. That is not faith, That is a lie and bearing false witness of yourself. because you lied saying you had faith in him to begin with.
You do not preach obedience, You preach a works based salvation.
You do not preach faith, you preach believe and live up to this standard or else (and you do not even pick Gods standard, Or you would realize you yourself can not keep his standard.
Slander is saying a false truth.
Your slandering faith by saying it is not fully assured, confident, and trusting, it is mere belief, which has no power at all to change anyone, cause them to walk in obedience, or be saved period!