Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
- Thread starter PeterJens
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
Righteousness is having the heart of God, and because you do, you do righteous things.
The spirit speaking here is a spirit of rebellion and destruction against morality, saying morality does not matter.
Their accusation is people only behave righteously because they think they will earn there way to heaven.
The idea righteous behaviour is life itself, it is the flow of the Kingdom of heaven, it is what Jesus empowers us to be, has not crossed their minds.
People are so cynical and judgemental, even a good work done by a sinner is evil.
These people have no heart.
The spirit speaking here is a spirit of rebellion and destruction against morality, saying morality does not matter.
Their accusation is people only behave righteously because they think they will earn there way to heaven.
The idea righteous behaviour is life itself, it is the flow of the Kingdom of heaven, it is what Jesus empowers us to be, has not crossed their minds.
People are so cynical and judgemental, even a good work done by a sinner is evil.
These people have no heart.
Your comment shows how unbiblical "grace" teaching really is.
And frankly, it contradicts what you said earlier about what the grace of GOD teaches.
I am writing these [things] to you, hoping to come to you in a short time. But if I am delayed, [I am writing] in order that you may know how one must conduct oneself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:14-15
Older women likewise [are to be] reverent in [their] behavior, not slanderous, not enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, Titus 2:3
Older women likewise [are to be] reverent in [their] behavior, not slanderous, not enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, Titus 2:3
And frankly, it contradicts what you said earlier about what the grace of GOD teaches.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13
Am I righteous before the Lord? Yes in Christ, because I have believed on His Son and the cross has washed my sins away.
As the fruit of this exalted position I walk in righteousness and purity. Every child of God has this privilege.
People talk about perfection, but what they are actually talking about is failure. They cannot accept that Jesus regards us as whole and capable of walking appropriately.
This means not being sexually immoral, having a pure thought life, of loving those you meet, not stealing, lying, being violent or angry against others, being patient, kind, considerate, polite, helpful, a servant will to meet needs.
It is odd that people find this simple way of life so hard to do. They are saying they are a slave to breaking this daily, hourly. It staggers me how far they are fallen, and empty within. Do they even know Christ at all?
And what is the response? Oh you have lowered the bar of sin so low, you are in sin but do not admit it.
As I have said before, please tell me my sin and failure? If I do not break the commandments, and I love Christ and walk in the Spirit, how am I failing? It sounds to me you hate the righteous and those who walk in purity. Out of this hatred you condemnation and words come, because there is nothing else unless you know something I do not.
Now you say I must not stumble. No, look at everyone in scripture, it is a road of many challenges and stumbles, testing, learning, growth. If we do stumble, the Lord is faithful to forgive us and heal us if we confess our sins.
So what is stopping you? Because something inside you says no. But that is the spiritual problem and sin in your life. It is the rebellion against the sovereignty of the Lord and His law which condemns you as a sinner, from which you need to repent. You claim all this theology, but walking in Christs ways you have rejected.
As the fruit of this exalted position I walk in righteousness and purity. Every child of God has this privilege.
People talk about perfection, but what they are actually talking about is failure. They cannot accept that Jesus regards us as whole and capable of walking appropriately.
This means not being sexually immoral, having a pure thought life, of loving those you meet, not stealing, lying, being violent or angry against others, being patient, kind, considerate, polite, helpful, a servant will to meet needs.
It is odd that people find this simple way of life so hard to do. They are saying they are a slave to breaking this daily, hourly. It staggers me how far they are fallen, and empty within. Do they even know Christ at all?
And what is the response? Oh you have lowered the bar of sin so low, you are in sin but do not admit it.
As I have said before, please tell me my sin and failure? If I do not break the commandments, and I love Christ and walk in the Spirit, how am I failing? It sounds to me you hate the righteous and those who walk in purity. Out of this hatred you condemnation and words come, because there is nothing else unless you know something I do not.
Now you say I must not stumble. No, look at everyone in scripture, it is a road of many challenges and stumbles, testing, learning, growth. If we do stumble, the Lord is faithful to forgive us and heal us if we confess our sins.
So what is stopping you? Because something inside you says no. But that is the spiritual problem and sin in your life. It is the rebellion against the sovereignty of the Lord and His law which condemns you as a sinner, from which you need to repent. You claim all this theology, but walking in Christs ways you have rejected.
E
I was going to respond to this thread when it opened, But figured would not be worth it and hoped people would just let it die the death it deserved.
For the umpteenth time.
Peter bears false witness against us in many ways. One of the things he lies about is that we call him a legalist BECAUSE he preqches obedience.
Well thats a lie.
for the umpteenth time
A legalist is a person, who preaches that works are rrequired for one of the following.
1. To recieve salvation, Also known as grace plus works. Eternal life is not given until after we die. If we meet up to some standard.
2. To Keep salvation/not lose it, disguised to be faith alone, apart from works. But in reality, A works based gospel which teaches that if a person does not live in some way, Salvation, which was given at the moment of faith, can be lost. Or thrown away.
What legalism is not..
Saying one is saved by grace through faith, then teaching and professing growing in Christ in faith, by being obedient to him, as we seek after the things of the spirit. and learn to mistrust our flesh more and more (A thing called ongoing sanctification)
Both th elegalist and the faith group preach obedience, It is just one is demanding that it is required or salvation will not occure, the other states salvation is the cornerstone, and Obedience will follow. meaning a person who is truly saved by truth faith (not a licentious faith) will not live in sin, and never will the rest of his life.. (this does not say he will not go through growing pains, and struggles with certain sins, it says he will nto live as he did prior to salvation. as a sinner, not known by God.
He has been born of God, and can not live in sin
For the umpteenth time.
Peter bears false witness against us in many ways. One of the things he lies about is that we call him a legalist BECAUSE he preqches obedience.
Well thats a lie.
for the umpteenth time
A legalist is a person, who preaches that works are rrequired for one of the following.
1. To recieve salvation, Also known as grace plus works. Eternal life is not given until after we die. If we meet up to some standard.
2. To Keep salvation/not lose it, disguised to be faith alone, apart from works. But in reality, A works based gospel which teaches that if a person does not live in some way, Salvation, which was given at the moment of faith, can be lost. Or thrown away.
What legalism is not..
Saying one is saved by grace through faith, then teaching and professing growing in Christ in faith, by being obedient to him, as we seek after the things of the spirit. and learn to mistrust our flesh more and more (A thing called ongoing sanctification)
Both th elegalist and the faith group preach obedience, It is just one is demanding that it is required or salvation will not occure, the other states salvation is the cornerstone, and Obedience will follow. meaning a person who is truly saved by truth faith (not a licentious faith) will not live in sin, and never will the rest of his life.. (this does not say he will not go through growing pains, and struggles with certain sins, it says he will nto live as he did prior to salvation. as a sinner, not known by God.
He has been born of God, and can not live in sin
Knowing who you are in Christ because of His finished work that made us "alive" unto God now will change our outward behavior....
"awake to righteousness and sin not..".....this is a call to see who you are in Christ and in knowing that....His life in you changes our behavior..
Knowing that we are dead to sin and "alive" to God is what is needed for real transformation in a Christian's life.
When we see that we are the righteousness of God in Christ... - we become outwardly who we really are in our new creation in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is already in us in Christ..in our inner man..the new creation.
There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior outwardly to reflect our true self in the Lord now.
It's definitely a process for the outward manifestation of who we are in Christ to happen...we need our mind renewed to who we are in Christ now.
1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
The question remains..is it us doing it by our own D.I.Y. self-effort/righteousness/holiness?. ....or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives.
The flesh profits nothing....it's the Spirit that gives life.
"awake to righteousness and sin not..".....this is a call to see who you are in Christ and in knowing that....His life in you changes our behavior..
Knowing that we are dead to sin and "alive" to God is what is needed for real transformation in a Christian's life.
When we see that we are the righteousness of God in Christ... - we become outwardly who we really are in our new creation in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is already in us in Christ..in our inner man..the new creation.
There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior outwardly to reflect our true self in the Lord now.
It's definitely a process for the outward manifestation of who we are in Christ to happen...we need our mind renewed to who we are in Christ now.
1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
The question remains..is it us doing it by our own D.I.Y. self-effort/righteousness/holiness?. ....or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives.
The flesh profits nothing....it's the Spirit that gives life.
Dear reader,
It is up to you to decide where the bible supports the proposition I am making or the extreme grace version.
Frees approach is not to answer the issue but put the opposite conclusion at the end with no justification.
This is just propoganda, because unless you have eyes to see, and ears to hear, the truth about Jesus falls away.
Does God love you? Yes.
Did Jesus provide a way of finding God? Yes
Does Jesus set you free from sin if you obey Him? Yes
Are the people who complain they are not free from sin in rebellion and disobedience? Yes
What is their message? Righteous behaviour does not matter, and they remove the ability of people to know inside themselves what righteousness actually is.
Do they condemn those who follow Jesus's simple instructions? Yes
Is this the fruit of the enemy or the Holy Spirit? The enemy.
It is up to you to decide where the bible supports the proposition I am making or the extreme grace version.
Frees approach is not to answer the issue but put the opposite conclusion at the end with no justification.
This is just propoganda, because unless you have eyes to see, and ears to hear, the truth about Jesus falls away.
Does God love you? Yes.
Did Jesus provide a way of finding God? Yes
Does Jesus set you free from sin if you obey Him? Yes
Are the people who complain they are not free from sin in rebellion and disobedience? Yes
What is their message? Righteous behaviour does not matter, and they remove the ability of people to know inside themselves what righteousness actually is.
Do they condemn those who follow Jesus's simple instructions? Yes
Is this the fruit of the enemy or the Holy Spirit? The enemy.
E
Here is another lie. And another false precept.
We who they call "grace" believers believe in the untethered, un-broken law of God as the just standard of obedience.
We do not water the law down like they do. And consider our sin as just minor instances or goof ups. We see ALL sin as deplorable to God. No matter how small or inconsequential we believe that sin might be, And only by the grace of God can we be forgive of even the smallest of all sin..
We take Gods righteousness (perfection) as the standard. Not mans watered down righteousness.
I am not going to try to argue with you and tell you what you have wrong in your belief system, I am just going to prove your lies..
We who they call "grace" believers believe in the untethered, un-broken law of God as the just standard of obedience.
We do not water the law down like they do. And consider our sin as just minor instances or goof ups. We see ALL sin as deplorable to God. No matter how small or inconsequential we believe that sin might be, And only by the grace of God can we be forgive of even the smallest of all sin..
We take Gods righteousness (perfection) as the standard. Not mans watered down righteousness.
I am not going to try to argue with you and tell you what you have wrong in your belief system, I am just going to prove your lies..
Well said and spot on to expose what is really being said here. I propose that we have already exposed the false accusations and that the readers by the Holy Spirit within them will know the difference.
Let's let these lies die a natural death and trust that the Lord will deal with all of us as He sees fit.
So, I propose we let this thread be and leave it where it lies....and die as it should.....
E
Here is lie number two. (or am I on three now) That we do not take the law as our standard. I have yet to hear a person in CC say this is true, as far as how a person should live their life.
How to get saved? Well yes, Paul says by the law no man will be saved, But as a guidline of what is morally right? He is lying about what we believe
- Status