Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[ember]

Good question. Let me rephrase your question so that there's no room for doubt or equivocation:

"where is all these " people" who keep saying that obedience does not matter for salvation???"​

Since you're on a roll with such good questions, why don't you take the lead and tell us if you are one of these people?

well, as long as that is your view on how things should roll out,

why don't YOU and your kin tell US who they are

In a year of posting here I have never seen anyone say that

do you have this response tatooed on your forehead or something?

thread after thread after thread after thread that is ALL you come up with

so, like you know, put up, or come up with some other false accusation already

 

[gb9]

GOD's grace gives us the ability to live like that.

living like this should be our goal every day. but we strive to walk the way the Sermon on the Mount says, but because we ARE saved, not to stay saved.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Its easy to understand. But its wrong. All of it.

Romans 4:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Two can play this game: (Oh look. James uses the word foolish, too.)

Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself. James 2:17

But do you want to know, O foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? James 2:20

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:26​

 

[ember]

dah bowl is empty

maybe y'all can fill it with your false accusations?

yeah..you...herose...you

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

living like this should be our goal every day. but we strive to walk the way the Sermon on the Mount says, but because we ARE saved, not to stay saved.

How do you stay saved if you stop doing the will of GOD?

 

[ember]

How do you stay saved if you stop doing the will of GOD?

I'm pretty sure you have answered that question yourself multiple times

It goes something like: "well you were not saved in the first place"

don't fall off your merry go round

 

[PeterJens]

"Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Matt 19:17

If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Matt 19:21

There was a time when I used to lie on my bed and think what it would be like if I repented of something I had done wrong, and get all the spiritual feelings and just not do it. It never worked. I had to just repent and sort my soul out.

As a young christian, one thought that I found hard was being ignorant, vulnerable, unknowledgeable. I did not want to start again, but in the end I realised I had to.

Another thing was I could not imagine how I could love and completely accept another or be loved by anyone. I now have a family which I deeply love, through our ups and downs, but what this is is beyond my imaginings. You cannot describe to a person who knew they wanted love, but found none obvious in their life to now be overflowing with this experience, is such a wonderful gift of Christ to me. Now these people still miss-understand me, and I them, and we have our show downs, but it is so much more. It works because on the inside I am the same as the outside. The main reason why, it makes life real and is the only way a weak person like me can survive.

Now if you want to crucify me and call me evil, that is your choice. And yes it hurts, and yes it matter, but I forgive you.
We are called to be lights and be open, which I am being.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast

 

[gb9]

Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast

thank you for answering this, now let's see the legalists reject it. as ember said, the merry-go-round continues. great post though.

 

[Nikki84]

Your comment shows how unbiblical "grace" teaching really is.

​I am writing these [things] to you, hoping to come to you in a short time. But if I am delayed, [I am writing] in order that you may know how one must conduct oneself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

Older women likewise [are to be] reverent in [their] behavior, not slanderous, not enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, Titus 2:3​

And frankly, it contradicts what you said earlier about what the grace of GOD teaches.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13​

I agree with this and there is no Kool Aide in sight!!!!!!!!!It appears, according to these scriptures we have "work" to do

 

[Grace777x70]

thank you for answering this, now let's see the legalists reject it. as ember said, the merry-go-round continues. great post though.

Here are some other things to consider about the will of God....other then believing Jesus is our righteousness by Him "doing the will of God".

I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say..not doing the will of God means you are not saved.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13

 

[PeterJens]

The challenge is "Does anyone say we come to faith and not obey?"

Obviously to say you follow Christ and rebel would be contradictatory.

But you believe in Christ and have a new spirit, perfect, holy, pure, which means you do not have anything to do.

Any keeping of laws, or rules or precepts or obedience is of the flesh and evil.
In fact even reading the laws is bringing condemnation on yourself. By implication obedience would bring condemnation if you were not obeying.

Now I do not think the readers here have a consistent view across the group. But this has been the consistent emotional expression across the group to such concepts. But maybe you are ignorant of implied meaning.

I am happy if you believe we are called to obey Christ. But I know some of you will caviate that with only the parts aimed at christians not Jews, so no sermon on the mount, no letters like James etc.

This makes the conversation deceptive and almost meaningless, because it is merely to create an impression of slander and false accusation, when in summary it is actually 100% true as far as the traditional theological view of obeying Christ.

For instance "Love your enemy".

The problem is this is also repeated in the letters but I do not know if this has the for christians label on it.
Maybe your side could give us a summary on what you believe you are called to obey so we know what you actually mean.

 

[Grace777x70]

thank you for answering this, now let's see the legalists reject it. as ember said, the merry-go-round continues. great post though.

Amen!..all works-based performance so-called "gospels" are not the true gospel of the grace of Christ.....they have the "appearance of godliness but deny the power"...it is "themselves" that save themselves and not relying on Christ. This is "denying their Lord and Master"......

2 Timothy 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.


Paul said they "appear as ministers of righteousness"...not that they come and say "sin all you want"... it's really their own self-righteousness that they are promoting...

2 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ( notice here...it is "their" works )


Galatians 1:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[SUP]7 [/SUP] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ is relying on our own "works" instead of what Christ has done for us in His finished work....when we depend on "ourselves" to "maintain salvation " we fall from grace. We have separated ourselves from Christ. Galatians 5:4

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[Nikki84]

So perfection is in the eye of the beholder. And not in the eyes of the creator? Thanks, I think you just simplified your position, and I now understand it.

By the way, If I could be perfect. Jesus would not have to come, He came because I am not perfect. And he loved me and wanted to restor me.

Just so you know what I believe, so you can not lie about that too.





Again, Just so the room knows what I believe, and not the lie Peter wants you to know.

I believe without eternal life in christ, and given the right to be called children of God by Jesus himself, the logos who was with God in the beginning, The hope which God, who can not lie promised before time began. is impossible,

ie, there is no hope if you have to rely on you rown personal righteousnessness, Your ability to be righteous, or your abiity to have faith, Because you, being human, are Bound to fail, And if you can fail, what hope is there?

I would rathe rplace my hope in christ, And run the race beside him, knowing i am secure in him,, As his child..



So God gives you grace as you are perfect. And not because you are like the tax collector who has to get on your knees,,

Thanks, again I now see your position,, (although I already knew it, Now I have it in your own words.)

Are you saying we are NOT to pray? You don't send knee mail? Very confusing sir.

 

[PeterJens]

Here are some other things to consider about the will of God....other then believing Jesus is our righteousness by Him "doing the will of God".

I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say..not doing the will of God means you are not saved.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13

Wow. We are all perfect then. Amen. If this is the bar of morality extreme grace are holding up, it is about non-existant.

Slipped in here are a few standards held by some people, but not from scripture about "works salvationists"
Now if this is a defence against being told what you believe in plain and simple language is lying, what is this?

"how foolish this nonsense is"

And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5:22

There is no fear here from slanderers and people who invent false accusations. It is to be expected from the source of people who have no respect for integrity, honesty and openness.

 

[Nikki84]

EG.....Here is my confusion: You told the thread we are not to be like the tax payer on our knees. Jesus tells a different story in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. We are to emulate the tax collector

 

[PeterJens]

So God gives you grace as you are perfect. And not because you are like the tax collector who has to get on your knees,,
Thanks, again I now see your position,, (although I already knew it, Now I have it in your own words.)

I have not claimed to be perfect. I do not like the word because it is too unclear as I have explained many times.
I am a sinner saved by grace, whose faith is in the Cross of Christ.

As normal you imply something I have not said, but it is for your audience and not me.
It is like your testimony of faith. It starts with, before "Peter lies about what I believe"

In your anger you throw out these accusations as if they make sense or help your cause. Because you do not deal with the actual issues they are just what I expect from you. I am still unclear what you believe as you tried to confuse the issue with jargon.

 

[ember]

lets' have a look at these posts that state you can go on sinning after you are saved

if you are not going to provide them, then maybe you should stop talking about them

CERTAIN people here do not understand the gospel

that, is the actual problem

NO ONE HAS STATED WE ARE FREE TO SIN AND GO ABOUT OUR DAILY BUSINESS AND IGNORE CHRIST

THAT, IS NOT SALVATION IN ANYONE'S BOOK

just on and on and on and on in thread after thread and if someone starts another thread, even if it is unrelated to the subject at hand, along comes herose or some other legalist advocate, and turns the thread into the ONLY discussion they seem to want to participate in

thread after thread that might have been edifying, has been derailed, twisted and maligned

it is so past time that this continues

so again, let's have the posts from the responders that state we are free to sin?

and don't present something from a new member for the obvious reasons...let's have the statement we are free to sin from the ones YOU accuse herose, of making those statements

not holding my breath

 

[ember]

In your anger you throw out these accusations as if they make sense or help your cause. Because you do not deal with the actual issues they are just what I expect from you. I am still unclear what you believe as you tried to confuse the issue with jargon.

stop accusing people of being angry...that is one of the first things that you do

that, is a psychological ploy to put someone on the defensive

everyone who disagrees with your confusing posts, which is most people here, are angry according to you

eg and everyone else is VERY AND EXCEPTIONALLY clear about what they believe...they and I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented in the 66 books of the Bible

you know that...herose insists we say we can continue sinning and you continually state we are angry or not clear

let ME be clear...neither of you present the gospel NEITHER of you!!!

stop your false accusations and just answer in a normal fashion

it would be so refreshing

 

[PeterJens]

In some ways I wish people could get away from the idea everything relates back to salvation when everything relates to Gods will and walking in the Kingdom.

Gods Kingdom has come to earth in His people. We are to be His representatives to each other and the world.
All of scripture points us towards what God approves of, what our hearts in Christ desire and where we should be going.

The answer is righteousness in its fullness, love, grace, mercy, integrity, honesty, truth. We are not to do the works of sin and avoid those who hold to the faith but walk in sin.

Now people will lie about this is earning salvation, when it is actually walking in the Kingdom. These people claim to know the gospel but are defeated individuals who have not victory in their hearts, but live under condemnation.

There only answer is to say you are sinners, we have the true standard of God, perfection, except when you look at how we are to live, it is not there. What an odd contradiction, to claim one thing and yet deny it the next. Someone is lying and being 100% inconsistent.