Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

" People must realise, Walking blamelessly and being perfect is not the same.

I can walk blamelessly, by not being openly covetous, by not being a slanderer or gossip. By not being a thief, By serving others, and not being selfish, By not committing murder, or sexual sin,and ot even putting myself in a place this could be even considered by anyone as a possibility

Walk in a way, when people ask about me and my walk, they would say I am a person who loves his god, and serves him, They can not find any faulty within me.

Yet still, be a sinner.. "

This unfortunately is an ambiguous statement. This appears to be saying we can walk blamelessly as to the law described here but still have an unclean heart. So the sins of the heart condemn you as a sinner, while the outward show appears fine.

Now this whole statement is true as far as I understand. Now would anyone go so far to say they have a pure heart?

Jesus was accusing the pharisees of not cleaning the bowl inside only the outside.

So which cleansing do you believe in?

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree the law is not by faith, but that wasn't my point. The Law was given by grace...The Mosaic covenant was not God dealing with us by our own performance. Galatians 3 explains this very well indeed... apart from the 6 words you quoted, here is another part of the same conversation from Paul:

The Law and the Promise


15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.


19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Now what was promised has been fulfilled in Christ... The fact that the people began to believe that they where made righteouss by the law does not undermine its original intent...as Jesus refudiates the Pharisee/saducess/scribes many times over this.


We are not under the Mosaic covenant. however, it was given by grace - God's good grace of keeping a people for himself under a schoolmaster until the promise was fulfilled.

The law was definitely all about "our" performance and it's purpose was to lead us to Christ - it showed up the fact that we couldn't keep the law.

The law had 4 basic purposes:

1) to reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20 2) To inflame sin in our lives - Rom 7:8, 1Cor. 15:56 3) To minister death - Rom. 7:10-11 4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The purpose of the law was not righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin; where the purpose of grace is to manifest salvation through faith in Christ alone.

The Lord graciously put in the animal sacrifices to keep them from being wiped out..and they are a shadow of the real thing - Christ's perfect sacrifice as the Lamb of God which took away the sin of the world

The above verses just say that the law did not nullify the Abrahamic covenant.

I understand what you are saying....it was some kind of a "round about way to deal with them in grace by giving the law"....I can see that if one stretches it out..but John seems to make a distinction between what Moses brought and what Jesus brought.

John 1:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

But we can just agree to disagree....we thank God for the blood of the Lord Jesus and that we are in His grace now!

 

[JGIG]

Since you're on a roll with such good questions, why don't you take the lead and tell us if you are one of these people?

What are you, a type of Gestapo, trying to identify 'these people'??


-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Glorification - technically this word, the noun is not in the Bible. But glorified the is, as we noted see Romans 8:30 above.
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"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30


Glorified is the Aorist Indicative Active, and speaks of God who sees the end from the beginning and in whose decree and purpose all future events are fulfilled. In other words, God has said it will happen, and it will. It is not something WE do, but that God has done to us. He already knows who will be glorified, and that is the same people that he pre-destined, called and justified. It is simply never about the individual self.

I'm jumping ahead to point 3.

And [those] whom he predestined, these [he] also called, and [those] whom he called, these [he] also justified, and [those] whom he justified, these [he] also glorified. Romans 8:30​

Romans 8:30, IMO, is one of the proof verses that the aorist cannot always be translated as English simple past for the simple reason that GOD has not glorified us yet. In fact I don't think any of the verbs in that verse should be translated as simple English past. IMO it should read:

And whom he predestines, these [he] also calls, and whom he calls, these [he] also justifies, and whom he justifies, these [he] also glorifies. Romans 8:30​

Salvation is a 3-fold process:

1. Justification/Sanctification (forensic, monergistic, past)
2. Practical Sanctification (synergistic, present)
3. Glorification (monergistic, future)

This corresponds to:

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him [are] called and chosen and faithful.” Revelation 17:14​

1. Called (everyone is called through GOD's grace)
2. Chosen (the few who remain holy are chosen)
3. Faithful (the faithful who do GOD's will are glorified)

 

[JGIG]

How do you stay saved if you stop doing the will of GOD?

Um, the will of God is that you be saved.

If you believe in the One He sent, you are saved, and have already done the will of God.

The work of God is loving others, and is the Fruit of the Spirit.

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”
Phil 2:14-15

 

[PeterJens]

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:8

Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.
Luke 1:6

To present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:27

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
1 Thess 3:13

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Angela53510

let yourselves be transformed by God.

How does one accomplish this?

We are transformed by beholding Christ as in a mirror - we see our true selves and then the Spirit of the Lord changes us. We fix our eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit

Are being transformed is in the passive voice which means the Spirit of God is changing us. - we do not change ourselves.

We participate by having our minds renewed to the truth as in Rom 12:2..it's His life in and through us that changes us and we participate in that life. We become outwardly who we truly are in our inner man in the new creation in Christ. Things just drop off us as we see who Jesus is to us as we are one with Him now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Um, the will of God is that you be saved.

If you believe in the One He sent, you are saved, and have already done the will of God.

The work of God is loving others, and is the Fruit of the Spirit.

-JGIG

This is what Jesus said. Amen sis

John 6 - [SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Gets no clearer than this..

 

[Grace777x70]

True..even Paul said that he was "blameless" as to the Law...until he saw what the law really was and it exposed his true unregenerate self..then he had an encounter with our Lord. One encounter with our Lord changes us for life!

People must realise, Walking blamelessly and being perfect is not the same.

I can walk blamelessly, by not being openly covetous, by not being a slanderer or gossip. By not being a thief, By serving others, and not being selfish, By not committing murder, or sexual sin,and ot even putting myself in a place this could be even considered by anyone as a possibility

Walk in a way, when people ask about me and my walk, they would say I am a person who loves his god, and serves him, They can not find any faulty within me.

Yet still, be a sinner..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True..even Paul said that he was "blameless" as to the Law...until he saw what the law really was and it exposed his true unregenerate self..then he had an encounter with our Lord. One encounter with our Lord changes us for life!

It is one thing to say I am blameless to a man I meet on the street., my neighbor, my coworker. my family etc etc.

it is different to say, By my own effort, I am blameless in front of A Holy and perfect God.

God makes us blameless to present us to himself, because of the redemptive act of Christ which justifies us. Not because we are blameless.

A non believer can be blameless in front of the world (we can say she is a righteous person, who always does good to all people) it does not mean they will be blameless before God.

 

[PeterJens]

The law was definitely all about "our" performance and it's purpose was to lead us to Christ - it showed up the fact that we couldn't keep the law.
The law had 4 basic purposes:
1) to reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20 2) To inflame sin in our lives - Rom 7:8, 1Cor. 15:56 3) To minister death - Rom. 7:10-11 4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

This all sounds very authoritative but it is only a small part of the bigger story.

The law was given to do one thing, help Israel survive and establish a theocracy with God being the King.

A set of rules did not convey for many the heart of God. He was distant, holy, unapproachable.

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.
Deut 7:12

And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.
Deut 10:19

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Deut 30:6

The law is much more that some would want to teach you.

 

[gb9]

It is one thing to say I am blameless to a man I meet on the street., my neighbor, my coworker. my family etc etc.

it is different to say, By my own effort, I am blameless in front of A Holy and perfect God.

God makes us blameless to present us to himself, because of the redemptive act of Christ which justifies us. Not because we are blameless.

A non believer can be blameless in front of the world (we can say she is a righteous person, who always does good to all people) it does not mean they will be blameless before God.

this, e.g., is the point that so many miss: stop comparing yourselves to other people, and start comparing yourself to God. you will see your sin and brokenness , and see your need for a savior so clearly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this, e.g., is the point that so many miss: stop comparing yourselves to other people, and start comparing yourself to God. you will see your sin and brokenness , and see your need for a savior so clearly.

Amen brother

That is the power behind satans lie

If he can get you to take your eyes of God and put it on others. He can convince you you are a righteous person. Then whether you believe in Jesus or not. You feel you are good enough to get to heaven, as long as you do not fall off gthe wagon so to speak and become an evil sinner. Your in..

Your eternal security is in your works,, your goodness, your righteousness. And not in Christ.

Thats why they have no hope. unles sthey lie them themselves, and claim they are righteous than they really are.. IE, they have to water down the law to fit the mold.. or look at others.. and not God.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

This all sounds very authoritative but it is only a small part of the bigger story.

The law was given to do one thing, help Israel survive and establish a theocracy with God being the King.

A set of rules did not convey for many the heart of God. He was distant, holy, unapproachable.

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.
Deut 7:12

And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.
Deut 10:19

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Deut 30:6

The law is much more that some would want to teach you.

Don't you mean: "The law was much more that some would want to teach you." ?

 

[PeterJens]

So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
Acts 24:16


I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—
Rom 9:1


When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
1 Cor 8:12

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't you mean: "The law was much more that some would want to teach you." ?

it is amazing,

we would have to throw the whole book of Galatians out, according to what he just said..

yet he still can't see it.

What about the law scares these people? (Of Course, I guess if I was trying to establish my own righteousness, I would be scared to. The law can only condemn)

 

[PeterJens]

Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
Gen 20:6


Afterward, David was conscience-stricken for having cut off a corner of his robe.
1 Sam 24:5


David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”
2 Sam 24:10


I will maintain my innocence and never let go of it; my conscience will not reproach me as long as I live.
Job 27:6

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14[/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

 

[PeterJens]

Don't you mean: "The law was much more that some would want to teach you." ?

Yes. The law encompasses so much it is difficult to take in. Even with years of study an individual only gets a partial view of what God covered. This is why simply to dismiss this as a mere way of identifying failure is to cheapen Gods literal words.

In a sense the law is Gods dictated law, word for word, not some persons invention. So to speak against this or miss-represent it is questioning the very wisdom of God.