Tongues

[posthuman]

when paul mentions tongues of angels in 1 cor, is this the only reference to tongues as a heavenly language?

my opinion is that Paul is being hyperbolic when he says that.

AFAIK every time the scripture mentions angels speaking, they're understood by the people hearing them without any problem, and that's never pointed out as being a miraculous miracle of interpretation.

 

[posthuman]

he is saying praying to the All High in our common language like Jesus taught is how a humble servant should pray.
attempting to pray to Him in His language, the angel language could make one think they are above others.

yeah, i get the sense there's some vanity going on in all that too! like "i'm special, can talk with secret language so secret even i don't understand it" -- dangerous way of thinking, i think. maybe they're right? but it's not for me; i'd rather not give myself any extra reasons to have a big ego.

 

[jaybird88]

my opinion is that Paul is being hyperbolic when he says that.

AFAIK every time the scripture mentions angels speaking, they're understood by the people hearing them without any problem, and that's never pointed out as being a miraculous miracle of interpretation.

yeah i think everyone agrees paul is speaking metaphorically. the emphasis is love not tongues. even if i speak like angels, even if i solve the worlds energy problems, even if i establish world peace, without love it is all straw.

i think this is the only time tongues of angels is ever used. every other time its just as tongues. in order to establish church doctrine would you not need 2 or 3 witnesses?

 

[kohelet]

If the gift of speaking in tongues for the church,h today, why then this teaching came up only through the Pentecostals after the year 1906? And then with signs which you can find in spiritsm too.
Only pentecostals, charismatics and some sects have this doctrine.
This make me doubt that God is behind that.

Hallo Wolf,
Are you sure? What do we do with what Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, Gregory Nazianzus, The Ambrosiaster Text, Epiphanius, Michael Psellos and many others throughout the history of the church have written about the gift of tongues continuing in the church in their day?

 

[hornetguy]

Could I suggest that when anyone replies to this that you don't quote the whole conversation preceeding it? It's very difficult to scroll past a whole page of quotation to get to the reply.... just a polite request...

 

[wolfwint]

Hallo Wolf,
Are you sure? What do we do with what Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, Gregory Nazianzus, The Ambrosiaster Text, Epiphanius, Michael Psellos and many others throughout the history of the church have written about the gift of tongues continuing in the church in their day?

Well, give me some time for respond

 

[Gr8grace]

Hallo Wolf,
Are you sure? What do we do with what Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, Gregory Nazianzus, The Ambrosiaster Text, Epiphanius, Michael Psellos and many others throughout the history of the church have written about the gift of tongues continuing in the church in their day?

They were not far removed from the gift ceasing, so they needed to get their study on to "see" when it ceased(70AD and the fall of "this people" the Jew). But in actuality, their mentioning of tongues is very small in relation to their overall teachings.

Heck, 2000 years later our "church fathers" can't figure it out.

And the early church fathers mentioning of tongues and its purposes in NO WAY resemble what we see today.

Irenaus Also states.........

True signs are done in “the name of our Lord JesusChrist” rather than “by means of angelic invocations, incantations, or any otherwicked curious art.”


It is easier for us to see that tongues have ceased. We have had the revelation of the mystery of the Church for 2000 years to study and learn. They were not very far removed from the signs and wonders that verified the message.

 

[kohelet]

Well, give me some time for respond

No hurry, Wolf, at all!

 

[kohelet]

They were not far removed from the gift ceasing, so they needed to get their study on to "see" when it ceased(70AD and the fall of "this people" the Jew). But in actuality, their mentioning of tongues is very small in relation to their overall teachings.

Heck, 2000 years later our "church fathers" can't figure it out.

And the early church fathers mentioning of tongues and its purposes in NO WAY resemble what we see today.

Irenaus Also states.........

True signs are done in “the name of our Lord JesusChrist” rather than “by means of angelic invocations, incantations, or any otherwicked curious art.”


It is easier for us to see that tongues have ceased. We have had the revelation of the mystery of the Church for 2000 years to study and learn. They were not very far removed from the signs and wonders that verified the message.

Hi Gr8grace,

Thanks - good to hear your view. Do tongues have to occupy a lot of their writings for them to indicate the gift hadn't ceased? Tongues hardly occupy a big place in the overall scheme of things.

Is there a passage of Scripture that tells you that the gifts wouldn't continue?

 

[wolfwint]

Hallo Wolf,
Are you sure? What do we do with what Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, Gregory Nazianzus, The Ambrosiaster Text, Epiphanius, Michael Psellos and many others throughout the history of the church have written about the gift of tongues continuing in the church in their day?

Hallo Kohelet, be back after a great time with family in the netherlands.
Well bible said we should proof the spirits.
If we look into the church history, we found in deed that some of the churchfathers talking about this gifts. But we found also churchfathers like Chrysostome (ca. 344-407n.Chr.) and Augustinus von Hippo (ca.354-430 n.Chr.) taugth that the sign gifts has stopped. It seems that in the 4.th century this gifts stopped in the church. In 1. Cor. 13,8 we read that in contrary to love the speaking in tongues will cease. And it is from the context not really clear when this will be.
Obviously it stopped after the 4.th century in the churches. Of course we find during the churchhistory groups which practice it. But these groups were sects, which followed not the word of God: like the Montanists (2nd Century). A important time in church history was the time around the reformation. 15th-17th century. In these times the main churches were foundet. (Reformatic (Calvinistic); Lutheren, Baptist; Bretheren, Mennonite and so on. But non of these chuches taught the sign gifts as for today relevant for the church. If these signs gifts are important for us as church, i would have expect, that the Lord had revealed this to the reformatic leaders, too. But this was not happend!
In the newer churchhistory we find groups like Irvingians (New (catholic) apostolic church), Mormons, Christian Sience Church, we will find these signs, but these are sects and proclaiming not the rigth gospel!
Now i shoild believe to a movement as from God, which is established with signs, which we cant find in the bible! Falling backward, driven to laughing without stopping, driven to move and noising like animals. Where we can find this in the bible as signs from the Holy Spirit? for to receive him?
What i can find in the bible are warnings that in the last time many false prophets will come for to try misslead even the choosen one. They will do wonders and miracles! And in Matth. 7,21ff Jesus said, that there will be People who call Jesus Lord and cast out Demons in Jesus name and has done miracules deeds in Jesus Name, but they are not known from the Lord!
I cant see from the bible that the Holy Spirit is working according denominations! The conclusion is, if the revival from 1906 is from the Holy Spirit is true, that all other denominatians and doctrines are wrong!
In the way how this revival in AzusaStreet startet, I cant see the Holy Spirit behind that.

 

[kohelet]

Hallo Kohelet, be back after a great time with family in the netherlands.
Well bible said we should proof the spirits.
If we look into the church history, we found in deed that some of the churchfathers talking about this gifts. But we found also churchfathers like Chrysostome (ca. 344-407n.Chr.) and Augustinus von Hippo (ca.354-430 n.Chr.) taugth that the sign gifts has stopped. It seems that in the 4.th century this gifts stopped in the church. In 1. Cor. 13,8 we read that in contrary to love the speaking in tongues will cease. And it is from the context not really clear when this will be.
Obviously it stopped after the 4.th century in the churches. Of course we find during the churchhistory groups which practice it. But these groups were sects, which followed not the word of God: like the Montanists (2nd Century). A important time in church history was the time around the reformation. 15th-17th century. In these times the main churches were foundet. (Reformatic (Calvinistic); Lutheren, Baptist; Bretheren, Mennonite and so on. But non of these chuches taught the sign gifts as for today relevant for the church. If these signs gifts are important for us as church, i would have expect, that the Lord had revealed this to the reformatic leaders, too. But this was not happend!
In the newer churchhistory we find groups like Irvingians (New (catholic) apostolic church), Mormons, Christian Sience Church, we will find these signs, but these are sects and proclaiming not the rigth gospel!
Now i shoild believe to a movement as from God, which is established with signs, which we cant find in the bible! Falling backward, driven to laughing without stopping, driven to move and noising like animals. Where we can find this in the bible as signs from the Holy Spirit? for to receive him?
What i can find in the bible are warnings that in the last time many false prophets will come for to try misslead even the choosen one. They will do wonders and miracles! And in Matth. 7,21ff Jesus said, that there will be People who call Jesus Lord and cast out Demons in Jesus name and has done miracules deeds in Jesus Name, but they are not known from the Lord!
I cant see from the bible that the Holy Spirit is working according denominations! The conclusion is, if the revival from 1906 is from the Holy Spirit is true, that all other denominatians and doctrines are wrong!
In the way how this revival in AzusaStreet startet, I cant see the Holy Spirit behind that.

Tach Wolf!

I'm really sorry about the delay. Life has been busy - babies being born, people visiting from overseas, mehr Hektik als alles andere.

Couple of quick comments. Augustine seems not to have considered corporate tongues had ceased, but that tongues spoken in private had. One thing's for sure, he changed his view later in life that the sign gifts had ceased. People like John MacArthur, who use him as evidence, are being a bit selective with the truth, leaving out bits that don’t suit them.

But let's imagine Augustine didn't do this. You say, “In 1 Cor. 13,8 we read that in contrary to love the speaking in tongues will cease. And it is from the context not really clear when this will be.” But it is very clear from the context when this would be. Directly following this, in the next two verses, Paul says that it is when the perfect comes that the partial would be done away with. If the gifts passed away in the 4th Century, what would you say was "the perfect" that caused tongues and other gifts to cease?

You say that the Lord hasn’t revealed to Reformed believers (or Baptists or others) that tongues are good for today and that it is the sects who teach the continuation of the sign gifts. This is simply not the case. Wayne Grudem, a Reformed theologian who wrote an excellent systematic theology certainly teaches that tongues are for today. Sam Storms, also a Reformed theologian, does also.

You seem to want to paint everyone who believes the gifts are for today with the same brush - so mention the excesses in the movement. This is something John MacArthur often does, leading me to wonder whether this is where you’re getting your information. It is the straw man argument and is dishonest (and cowardly). Of course excesses are wrong - but responsible, sound theologians are teaching that the gifts have not ceased. Not only this, but songs by songwriters like Stuart Townsend are sung by Christians across the denominations. “How Deep the Father’s Love for Us” is written by an Anglican Charismatic (in German “Wie tief muss Gottes Liebe sein”). Would you include him in your list of Mormons, Christian Science and New Apostolics?

You say you find the warning in the bible against false prophets who will come to mislead even the chosen. Paul, in his teaching of the church in Corinth, many of whom came from a background of pagan worship, didn’t warn them this way - he wanted them all to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14,5)! At the end of the three chapters of teaching of the right use of the gifts, Paul writes, “Test all things; hold on to the good."

What really interests me is, what you consider to be "the perfect" Paul was referring to in 1 Cor. 13.

This has been written very quickly - I've been sorry I've kept you waiting so long for an answer - and I may have got things wrong. I welcome correction!

 

[wolfwint]

Tach Wolf!

I'm really sorry about the delay. Life has been busy - babies being born, people visiting from overseas, mehr Hektik als alles andere.

Couple of quick comments. Augustine seems not to have considered corporate tongues had ceased, but that tongues spoken in private had. One thing's for sure, he changed his view later in life that the sign gifts had ceased. People like John MacArthur, who use him as evidence, are being a bit selective with the truth, leaving out bits that don’t suit them.

But let's imagine Augustine didn't do this. You say, “In 1 Cor. 13,8 we read that in contrary to love the speaking in tongues will cease. And it is from the context not really clear when this will be.” But it is very clear from the context when this would be. Directly following this, in the next two verses, Paul says that it is when the perfect comes that the partial would be done away with. If the gifts passed away in the 4th Century, what would you say was "the perfect" that caused tongues and other gifts to cease?

You say that the Lord hasn’t revealed to Reformed believers (or Baptists or others) that tongues are good for today and that it is the sects who teach the continuation of the sign gifts. This is simply not the case. Wayne Grudem, a Reformed theologian who wrote an excellent systematic theology certainly teaches that tongues are for today. Sam Storms, also a Reformed theologian, does also.

You seem to want to paint everyone who believes the gifts are for today with the same brush - so mention the excesses in the movement. This is something John MacArthur often does, leading me to wonder whether this is where you’re getting your information. It is the straw man argument and is dishonest (and cowardly). Of course excesses are wrong - but responsible, sound theologians are teaching that the gifts have not ceased. Not only this, but songs by songwriters like Stuart Townsend are sung by Christians across the denominations. “How Deep the Father’s Love for Us” is written by an Anglican Charismatic (in German “Wie tief muss Gottes Liebe sein”). Would you include him in your list of Mormons, Christian Science and New Apostolics?

You say you find the warning in the bible against false prophets who will come to mislead even the chosen. Paul, in his teaching of the church in Corinth, many of whom came from a background of pagan worship, didn’t warn them this way - he wanted them all to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14,5)! At the end of the three chapters of teaching of the right use of the gifts, Paul writes, “Test all things; hold on to the good."

What really interests me is, what you consider to be "the perfect" Paul was referring to in 1 Cor. 13.

This has been written very quickly - I've been sorry I've kept you waiting so long for an answer - and I may have got things wrong. I welcome correction!

Tach Kohelet, thanks for reply and dont matter because of beeing late.
Well what to say:

Couple of quick comments. Augustine seems not to have considered corporate tongues had ceased, but that tongues spoken in private had. One thing's for sure, he changed his view later in life that the sign gifts had ceased. People like John MacArthur, who use him as evidence, are being a bit selective with the truth, leaving out bits that don’t suit them.

It´s right, there are contrary meanings about this in the world. And if we would live 500 years earlyer we would be killed as heretic people.

But let's imagine Augustine didn't do this. You say, “In 1 Cor. 13,8 we read that in contrary to love the speaking in tongues will cease. And it is from the context not really clear when this will be.” But it is very clear from the context when this would be. Directly following this, in the next two verses, Paul says that it is when the perfect comes that the partial would be done away with. If the gifts passed away in the 4th Century, what would you say was "the perfect" that caused tongues and other gifts to cease?



1. Cor 13,8 speaks only from 3 gifts which would cease.
1. Cor. 13,9 is only speaking from prophecie and knowledge, speaking in tongues is not anymore mentioned in the following verses. So that the following verses are only speaking from prophecie and knowledge. And we have to recognize that the following verses have no conection to "speaking in tongues"!
So a ceasing of speaking in tongues is not depent from verses 9 to 12.

So the question is left about prophecie and knowledge. You know there are in the christian world 3 meanings:
1. when the Lord is coming back
2. when the scripture is complete revealed (Kanon)
3. when we are in heaven.

I would prefer no 2. Explaining for that: because the churches had in those days not the whole word of god revealed in there hands. So it was nessasary that the spirit reveals into the churches the word of god.

Really for what we should need prophecie today? Some pentecostal leaders proclaim that 40-60% of the prophecies in there church are coming truth. What that? I would expect 100%

You say that the Lord hasn’t revealed to Reformed believers (or Baptists or others) that tongues are good for today and that it is the sects who teach the continuation of the sign gifts. This is simply not the case. Wayne Grudem, a Reformed theologian who wrote an excellent systematic theology certainly teaches that tongues are for today. Sam Storms, also a Reformed theologian, does also.



Wayne Grudem and Sam Storms are calvinists charismatics thats true. But they are living now! And today we see also that we can find charismatics in nearly all denominations.
I meant when the reformators foundet the different denominations around 400-500 years ago. Nobody from them tought the sign gifts. And this I would expect if it would be important for the church. If they had tought the sign gifts this would be normal for all christians! But his is not the case!

I know Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow. And in all the churchhistorie he worked also with special signs to several people ore in special situations (mission). But this we cant compare to that what we found in the apostolic time church.


You seem to want to paint everyone who believes the gifts are for today with the same brush - so mention the excesses in the movement. This is something John MacArthur often does, leading me to wonder whether this is where you’re getting your information. It is the straw man argument and is dishonest (and cowardly). Of course excesses are wrong - but responsible, sound theologians are teaching that the gifts have not ceased. Not only this, but songs by songwriters like Stuart Townsend are sung by Christians across the denominations. “How Deep the Father’s Love for Us” is written by an Anglican Charismatic (in German “Wie tief muss Gottes Liebe sein”). Would you include him in your list of Mormons, Christian Science and New Apostolics?


Well, i learned that this movement is foundet 110 years ago ( and in the events which brought up the Charismatic and church renewing movemnet), all who believes in this are pentecostals ore charismatics. And to believe that the signgifts are for the church today are only taught from them. Nobody else taught it.
I belive if the Holy Spirit is given to all believers it is not a question of denomination.
But it seams that the Holy Spirit has revealed himself only to Pentecostals ore Charismatics with this signgifts. And this I simply cant believe, while sects have also those revelations which are should be given from the Holy Spirit.
I dont say that pentecostals ore charismatics are no born again believers! But what i see in their doctrine i cant find in the bible for today!

Sorry, that i could not agree with you in this. Have a blessed weekend and gratulation for the new born child!

 

[kohelet]

Hi Wolf!

Last bit first:

Sorry, that i could not agree with you in this. Have a blessed weekend and gratulation for the new born child!

Oh, it’s fine that you don’t agree. It helps us rethink our position when we read others’ views. And thank you – I’m a grandparent (it’s a girl)!

I understand your point about the Reformation and there being no tongues at that time therefore the gift must have ceased. I don’t find this convincing though. The Scripture is a more reliable source – the Reformers weren’t inspired.

You write:

1. Cor 13,8 speaks only from 3 gifts which would cease.
1. Cor. 13,9 is only speaking from prophecie and knowledge, speaking in tongues is not anymore mentioned in the following verses. So that the following verses are only speaking from prophecie and knowledge. And we have to recognize that the following verses have no conection to "speaking in tongues"!
So a ceasing of speaking in tongues is not depent from verses 9 to 12.

So the question is left about prophecie and knowledge. You know there are in the christian world 3 meanings:
1. when the Lord is coming back
2. when the scripture is complete revealed (Kanon)
3. when we are in heaven.

I would prefer no 2. Explaining for that: because the churches had in those days not the whole word of god revealed in there hands. So it was nessasary that the spirit reveals into the churches the word of god.

Paul’s not mentioning tongues in 1 Cor.13,9 doesn’t mean he isn’t including this gift. It is a matter of writing style. This was my first thought when I read your words and I have found that scholars (who are not charismatics), e.g., D.A. Carson, make the same point (so they must be right). It’s a stylistic thing. Paul doesn’t have to repeat the three gifts here, particularly as he later explains (in 14,5) that prophecy is greater than tongues unless someone interprets. In that case, tongues is of equal value with prophecy and has the same function, “that the church may be built up”. So it would make no sense to exclude tongues in the gifts that would cease when the perfect comes. Paul here is contrasting things that won't last forever with love, which will. So tongues is included with the temporary things.

You say you believe “the perfect” is the completion of Scripture. Would the Corinthians have understood this though? Was there any mention of a collection of New Testament books or a New Testament canon anywhere in the context of 1 Corinthians 13? This idea is completely foreign to the context. If there had been, and if Paul made it clear that the last book of the canon would be written in AD90, would it have been persuasive to argue: “We know that love will never end because it will last more than 35 years”?

The context requires us to understand that the perfect is the age to come. You wanted us to consider the views of the Reformers. When considering the “completed canon” argument, Calvin wrote in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, “It is stupid [sorry Wolf, his word, not mine] of people to make the whole of this discussion apply to the intervening time.”

Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones writes of another difficulty with your view: “It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God’s truth. It means that we are altogether superior even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which ‘we know, even as also we are known’ by God. Indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense.”

This means that we have a clear biblical statement that Paul expected the gifts to continue through the entire church age and to function for the benefit of the Church until the Lord returns.

I would prefer no 2. Explaining for that: because the churches had in those days not the whole word of god revealed in there hands. So it was nessasary that the spirit reveals into the churches the word of god.

We need to look at the nature of New Testament prophecy though. It differed from the Old Testament variety. Old Testament prophets spoke the very words of God. New Testament prophets put impressions the Lord has given them into words. See Agabus, for example.

Really for what we should need prophecie today? Some pentecostal leaders proclaim that 40-60% of the prophecies in there church are coming truth. What that? I would expect 100%

We need prophecy today to benefit the church, Wolf. Through it, God speaks directly into people’s specific circumstances, encouraging and comforting them.

You say you would expect a 100% success rate. But Agabus, who prophesied to Paul, got minor details wrong and Paul didn’t always follow the advice contained in his prophecies anyway. Not only this, but at the end of another section on spiritual gifts, Paul writes, “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20,21). There would have been no need for this instruction if we could rely on 100% of all prophecies.

There's more that I could write but this is perhaps enough for now.

Oh, in case you're wondering, I'm no wild-eyed Pentecostal (not that there's anything wrong with that). I'm a Baptist. Very correct.

 

[ladylynn]

Tach Wolf!

I'm really sorry about the delay. Life has been busy - babies being born, people visiting from overseas, mehr Hektik als alles andere.

Couple of quick comments. Augustine seems not to have considered corporate tongues had ceased, but that tongues spoken in private had. One thing's for sure, he changed his view later in life that the sign gifts had ceased. People like John MacArthur, who use him as evidence, are being a bit selective with the truth, leaving out bits that don’t suit them.

But let's imagine Augustine didn't do this. You say, “In 1 Cor. 13,8 we read that in contrary to love the speaking in tongues will cease. And it is from the context not really clear when this will be.” But it is very clear from the context when this would be. Directly following this, in the next two verses, Paul says that it is when the perfect comes that the partial would be done away with. If the gifts passed away in the 4th Century, what would you say was "the perfect" that caused tongues and other gifts to cease?

You say that the Lord hasn’t revealed to Reformed believers (or Baptists or others) that tongues are good for today and that it is the sects who teach the continuation of the sign gifts. This is simply not the case. Wayne Grudem, a Reformed theologian who wrote an excellent systematic theology certainly teaches that tongues are for today. Sam Storms, also a Reformed theologian, does also.

You seem to want to paint everyone who believes the gifts are for today with the same brush - so mention the excesses in the movement. This is something John MacArthur often does, leading me to wonder whether this is where you’re getting your information. It is the straw man argument and is dishonest (and cowardly). Of course excesses are wrong - but responsible, sound theologians are teaching that the gifts have not ceased. Not only this, but songs by songwriters like Stuart Townsend are sung by Christians across the denominations. “How Deep the Father’s Love for Us” is written by an Anglican Charismatic (in German “Wie tief muss Gottes Liebe sein”). Would you include him in your list of Mormons, Christian Science and New Apostolics?

You say you find the warning in the bible against false prophets who will come to mislead even the chosen. Paul, in his teaching of the church in Corinth, many of whom came from a background of pagan worship, didn’t warn them this way - he wanted them all to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14,5)! At the end of the three chapters of teaching of the right use of the gifts, Paul writes, “Test all things; hold on to the good."

What really interests me is, what you consider to be "the perfect" Paul was referring to in 1 Cor. 13.

This has been written very quickly - I've been sorry I've kept you waiting so long for an answer - and I may have got things wrong. I welcome correction!

Wow Kohelet! Just WOW for now. You always always never cease to impress me!!!! love you brother!!! congrats again on your granddaughter's arrival!!

 

[CEF]

Speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit! The only way you can guide someone to speaking in tongues is by praying with them that they would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's all in God's timing when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Their is not flesh can do, but pray that they receive it in Jesus Name.

 

[ladylynn]

Hi Wolf!

Last bit first:



Oh, it’s fine that you don’t agree. It helps us rethink our position when we read others’ views. And thank you – I’m a grandparent (it’s a girl)!

I understand your point about the Reformation and there being no tongues at that time therefore the gift must have ceased. I don’t find this convincing though. The Scripture is a more reliable source – the Reformers weren’t inspired.

You write:



Paul’s not mentioning tongues in 1 Cor.13,9 doesn’t mean he isn’t including this gift. It is a matter of writing style. This was my first thought when I read your words and I have found that scholars (who are not charismatics), e.g., D.A. Carson, make the same point (so they must be right). It’s a stylistic thing. Paul doesn’t have to repeat the three gifts here, particularly as he later explains (in 14,5) that prophecy is greater than tongues unless someone interprets. In that case, tongues is of equal value with prophecy and has the same function, “that the church may be built up”. So it would make no sense to exclude tongues in the gifts that would cease when the perfect comes. Paul here is contrasting things that won't last forever with love, which will. So tongues is included with the temporary things.

You say you believe “the perfect” is the completion of Scripture. Would the Corinthians have understood this though? Was there any mention of a collection of New Testament books or a New Testament canon anywhere in the context of 1 Corinthians 13? This idea is completely foreign to the context. If there had been, and if Paul made it clear that the last book of the canon would be written in AD90, would it have been persuasive to argue: “We know that love will never end because it will last more than 35 years”?

The context requires us to understand that the perfect is the age to come. You wanted us to consider the views of the Reformers. When considering the “completed canon” argument, Calvin wrote in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, “It is stupid [sorry Wolf, his word, not mine] of people to make the whole of this discussion apply to the intervening time.”

Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones writes of another difficulty with your view: “It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God’s truth. It means that we are altogether superior even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which ‘we know, even as also we are known’ by God. Indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense.”

This means that we have a clear biblical statement that Paul expected the gifts to continue through the entire church age and to function for the benefit of the Church until the Lord returns.



We need to look at the nature of New Testament prophecy though. It differed from the Old Testament variety. Old Testament prophets spoke the very words of God. New Testament prophets put impressions the Lord has given them into words. See Agabus, for example.



We need prophecy today to benefit the church, Wolf. Through it, God speaks directly into people’s specific circumstances, encouraging and comforting them.

You say you would expect a 100% success rate. But Agabus, who prophesied to Paul, got minor details wrong and Paul didn’t always follow the advice contained in his prophecies anyway. Not only this, but at the end of another section on spiritual gifts, Paul writes, “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20,21). There would have been no need for this instruction if we could rely on 100% of all prophecies.

There's more that I could write but this is perhaps enough for now.

Oh, in case you're wondering, I'm no wild-eyed Pentecostal (not that there's anything wrong with that). I'm a Baptist. Very correct.

You (at times) can write and talk waaaaaayyy over my head but I did pick up on some very good things you posted here brother and this is to give you a 2nd Wow to add to the 1st Wow. You make some very good points even for someone like me who is not up on all the church history. Good post kohelet

 

[Arigirl]

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit myself (Having the infilling of the Holy Spirit, meaning I can speak in tongues) I know that it is a gift of God. Only God can give it. For how I received it was simple. I prayed to God and asked to receive tongues, I opened my mouth and immediately I was speaking in tongues. I was actually at a Christian event at the time, and many other people had the Holy spirit wash over them and were speaking in tongues. It was spectacular.

 

[Justcallmetinman]

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit myself (Having the infilling of the Holy Spirit, meaning I can speak in tongues) I know that it is a gift of God. Only God can give it. For how I received it was simple. I prayed to God and asked to receive tongues, I opened my mouth and immediately I was speaking in tongues. I was actually at a Christian event at the time, and many other people had the Holy spirit wash over them and were speaking in tongues. It was spectacular.

You dont have to speak in tongues to have the infilling of the HS. We are all indwelt by the HS when we are saved. You dont get an "extra" dose of HS with tongues. You just get tongues It sounds like you have been brainwashed by the charismatics . You wouldnt happen to hang out with the cornerstone church would you?They have a few beliefs that are not biblical.

 

[jaybird88]

why are all the modern tongues sounding like babbling? did Jesus not forbid this? how would babbling be a sign to non believers? babbling would also be a false sign to Jews as they would have associated this with the pagans such as the oracle of Delphi. anyone ever read about the oracle of Delphi, when they went into their prophetic mode it was all stammering/babbling but it was serious to the Greeks as this was the "language of the gods".

 

[Justcallmetinman]

No hurry, Wolf, at all!

The color you are using is hard to read for me anyways. I noticed you had much input but it hurts my eyes so I have to pass