Do you believe in Cessationism or Continuationism? (poll)
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Roger, I'm not the one who says you won't move mountains with your faith. Truth be told I've never seen a mountain cast into the sea by faith, but I have seen the seas and waves stirred up by faith. I think they're in the same ballpark.
Would I tempt my Lord God by grabbing every rattlesnake I see? No. Would God save me from accidental encounters with these kinds of animals? He has several times already.
When Paul says he wishes all of us would do something and tells us not to forbid it, who is it between the two of us who preaches that we should not do it and forbids it?
And who among us has received the edification of knowing that, lowly scoundrel dog that we are, all I have to do is believe in what God says and put it to work to see it work.
When you say you'll never move mountains et al... you say you don't truly believe.
I'm not trying to mock you Rog, I know I sound like that but on the serious side you have been totally blinded and I keep praying that some day your eyes will be opened. And what better eye opener is there than being faced with the truth? I mean, among all the things at my disposal
It's a shame, that you exclude yourself from many wondrous things God has for us. But it's a sin that you advocate others to do the same.
To the rest of you, I apologize for the tangent. Rog and I go way back. But I still have hope for him.
Would I tempt my Lord God by grabbing every rattlesnake I see? No. Would God save me from accidental encounters with these kinds of animals? He has several times already.
When Paul says he wishes all of us would do something and tells us not to forbid it, who is it between the two of us who preaches that we should not do it and forbids it?
And who among us has received the edification of knowing that, lowly scoundrel dog that we are, all I have to do is believe in what God says and put it to work to see it work.
When you say you'll never move mountains et al... you say you don't truly believe.
I'm not trying to mock you Rog, I know I sound like that but on the serious side you have been totally blinded and I keep praying that some day your eyes will be opened. And what better eye opener is there than being faced with the truth? I mean, among all the things at my disposal
It's a shame, that you exclude yourself from many wondrous things God has for us. But it's a sin that you advocate others to do the same.
To the rest of you, I apologize for the tangent. Rog and I go way back. But I still have hope for him.
And that is what makes this subject more important than all the rest. The Holy Spirit moves upon someone with a genuine gift; the cessationist says it wasn't the Holy Spirit because God doesn't do this anymore. By not attributing it to God, they by implication attribute it elsewhere, which would be satan or the flesh (which is driven by satan). And what does God say about those who attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan? Yeah, that's what makes this such a slippery slope. I'm not sayin' that cessationists are unsaved, I'm just sayin' it's something to consider before you consider standing in the way.
D
My denomination is cessationists. I find that funny because they still lay hands on people, still pray for people, have even been known to pray out a demonic spirit in a person, and yet... "that stuff just doesn't happen anymore."
They don't expect God to act on their behalf, and are always quite shock when God does anyway. Aren't we all?
I'm not so much into what people say as in to seeing what they really believe by action. Therefore, this isn't a slippery slope for me.
They don't expect God to act on their behalf, and are always quite shock when God does anyway. Aren't we all?
I'm not so much into what people say as in to seeing what they really believe by action. Therefore, this isn't a slippery slope for me.
In 1 Corinthians 13, People tend to disregard "part-B" of the chapter, and what (and where) all that entails. Agapeo (unconditional) love, comes to mind! Firstfruits, and who er what you ascribe them to, comes to mind.
(Drops Mic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulhjn0LZcPM
(Drops Mic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulhjn0LZcPM
My denomination is cessationists. I find that funny because they still lay hands on people, still pray for people, have even been known to pray out a demonic spirit in a person, and yet... "that stuff just doesn't happen anymore."
They don't expect God to act on their behalf, and are always quite shock when God does anyway. Aren't we all?
I'm not so much into what people say as in to seeing what they really believe by action. Therefore, this isn't a slippery slope for me.
They don't expect God to act on their behalf, and are always quite shock when God does anyway. Aren't we all?
I'm not so much into what people say as in to seeing what they really believe by action. Therefore, this isn't a slippery slope for me.
If a 'cessationist' is a part of or witness to a miraculous healing, then s/he has witnessed a gift of the Holy Spirit. So the question is why does s/he not recognize or acknowledge it as a gift of the Spirit? I think a lot of it has to do with image. The 'working of the gifts' has been hijacked by the babble and act stupid crowd, and they don't want to be associated with that. And I can't blame them. I'm a functionalist, and I don't want to associate with that either. But yeah, I've known 'cessationists' who have been given/witnessed a gift of the Spirit, and turned right around and said that wasn't what Paul was talking about.
But oh yes, it was.
D
I hold these weird little facts, numbers, and dates in my head. I know why I hold dates in my head -- because the date mean something to me. But the facts? Not as much as the dates, but they're still in my head.
One is agape. The ancient Greeks had a lot of words that meant love, but each one had a different type of love in mind. Some you probably still remember which kind of love it is. For instance, "philo." I live in Philadelphia which means "brotherly love." It's from the Greek. In like kind, everyone over 13 tends to know what eros is.
BUT agape is unique. Agape was to Paul's era what "gay" meant in the 1950's. Gay was a description of the 1890's, ("the gay 90's.) The strange part was in the 1950's gay was no longer in vogue. Same deal as agape. Everyone knew agape meant love, but it was so little used, no one actually remembered what kind of love it meant.
Now, Paul is talking to Greeks and Romans, staring at a statue of a god that had no name, because the that civilization had this fear of missing a god, so even honored gods they might not know. And Paul used that statue to let them know about the unknown God -- Jehovah. AND he wanted to explain what kind of love that one and only God gave -- agape.
It doesn't mean unconditional, (particularly since God had a really big condition for his love. Jesus -- God, Son of God and Man all in one -- had to die on a cross that God may freely love us.) It's a special love only the one-and-only God can give, so Paul plucked an obscure word and gave it new meaning. (A positive change in a word, unlike what happened to the word "gay" in 100 years.)
The weird facts that sticks in my brain.
One is agape. The ancient Greeks had a lot of words that meant love, but each one had a different type of love in mind. Some you probably still remember which kind of love it is. For instance, "philo." I live in Philadelphia which means "brotherly love." It's from the Greek. In like kind, everyone over 13 tends to know what eros is.
BUT agape is unique. Agape was to Paul's era what "gay" meant in the 1950's. Gay was a description of the 1890's, ("the gay 90's.) The strange part was in the 1950's gay was no longer in vogue. Same deal as agape. Everyone knew agape meant love, but it was so little used, no one actually remembered what kind of love it meant.
Now, Paul is talking to Greeks and Romans, staring at a statue of a god that had no name, because the that civilization had this fear of missing a god, so even honored gods they might not know. And Paul used that statue to let them know about the unknown God -- Jehovah. AND he wanted to explain what kind of love that one and only God gave -- agape.
It doesn't mean unconditional, (particularly since God had a really big condition for his love. Jesus -- God, Son of God and Man all in one -- had to die on a cross that God may freely love us.) It's a special love only the one-and-only God can give, so Paul plucked an obscure word and gave it new meaning. (A positive change in a word, unlike what happened to the word "gay" in 100 years.)
The weird facts that sticks in my brain.
I'm actually surprised by the poll results. I didn't realize CC members were so open to the gifts of the Spirit (about 78%, out of who participated). Some users surprised me as well, with their decision. Thats one thing that boggled my mind in the past, that a revelation of grace doesn't necessarily mean a revelation of power.
There are people with the grace revelation who are closed off to the gifts, and then there are people operating in the gifts who are closed off to God's grace (in terms of doctrine). I find that peculiar and I was somewhat dumbfounded in the past. How could someone with a revelation of God's love, through Jesus by grace, not also grasp the love behind the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Him providing gifts in order to edify and exhort others. I really didn't think such beliefs could be separated, to be honest when I first witnessed it. "A grace believer as a cessationist!? Say what?" haha
There are people with the grace revelation who are closed off to the gifts, and then there are people operating in the gifts who are closed off to God's grace (in terms of doctrine). I find that peculiar and I was somewhat dumbfounded in the past. How could someone with a revelation of God's love, through Jesus by grace, not also grasp the love behind the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Him providing gifts in order to edify and exhort others. I really didn't think such beliefs could be separated, to be honest when I first witnessed it. "A grace believer as a cessationist!? Say what?" haha
D
How often do any of us recognize if something big happens, if that was the natural or supernatural course happening? My husband had a massive heart attack last November that by all the numbers should have killed him. I begged for, and got, a multitude of prayers, ASAP. He lived. It surprised me. (In a good way, but it did surprise me.) Was that God's natural method or his supernatural method?
With all my heart, I know God had something to do with it -- if not everything to do with it -- but if hubby was miraculously healed, then why would he immediately go on to pneumonia, followed by kidney failure for a few days, followed by an infection so bad the pneumonia looked like a stubbed toe, and then it kept going like that for months? Most people who survive heart attacks get to go home in a couple of days to a few weeks.
I am so very happy God is doing good things for hubby and hubby will come home eventually. I'm not bucking all of this is God's will. I know it is. BUT we're talking "the gifts" and I truly don't know if God gifted in big ways or small ways. Lots of people prayed. God heard. God knew how all this works out and still knows better than we do. Rom. 8:28 firmly applies.
So, I'm back to leaving it comfortably with some people just can't recognize or acknowledge. Probably because that's a gift from God too, and not one bestowed on everyone.
Which also explains how someone who isn't a cessationist can join a cessationist denomination. I prefer the important stuff they do teach me than the stuff neither side or anyone in the middle will ever fully understand anyway.
Maybe a molehill, instead of slippery slope? Maybe just a South Jersey mountain? (South Jersey is land built over swamp, so it's not known for drastically tall mountains. I think the HUGE hills are only two blocks long. lol) Definitely something in the geography to explore, but I don't think any side is in danger of hell fire for not getting that fully.
With all my heart, I know God had something to do with it -- if not everything to do with it -- but if hubby was miraculously healed, then why would he immediately go on to pneumonia, followed by kidney failure for a few days, followed by an infection so bad the pneumonia looked like a stubbed toe, and then it kept going like that for months? Most people who survive heart attacks get to go home in a couple of days to a few weeks.
I am so very happy God is doing good things for hubby and hubby will come home eventually. I'm not bucking all of this is God's will. I know it is. BUT we're talking "the gifts" and I truly don't know if God gifted in big ways or small ways. Lots of people prayed. God heard. God knew how all this works out and still knows better than we do. Rom. 8:28 firmly applies.
So, I'm back to leaving it comfortably with some people just can't recognize or acknowledge. Probably because that's a gift from God too, and not one bestowed on everyone.
Which also explains how someone who isn't a cessationist can join a cessationist denomination. I prefer the important stuff they do teach me than the stuff neither side or anyone in the middle will ever fully understand anyway.
Maybe a molehill, instead of slippery slope? Maybe just a South Jersey mountain? (South Jersey is land built over swamp, so it's not known for drastically tall mountains. I think the HUGE hills are only two blocks long. lol) Definitely something in the geography to explore, but I don't think any side is in danger of hell fire for not getting that fully.
D
I'm actually surprised by the poll results. I didn't realize CC members were so open to the gifts of the Spirit (about 78%, out of who participated). Some users surprised me as well, with their decision. Thats one thing that boggled my mind in the past, that a revelation of grace doesn't necessarily mean a revelation of power.
There are people with the grace revelation who are closed off to the gifts, and then there are people operating in the gifts who are closed off to God's grace (in terms of doctrine). I find that peculiar and I was somewhat dumbfounded in the past. How could someone with a revelation of God's love, through Jesus by grace, not also grasp the love behind the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Him providing gifts in order to edify and exhort others. I really didn't think such beliefs could be separated, to be honest when I first witnessed it. "A grace believer as a cessationist!? Say what?" haha
There are people with the grace revelation who are closed off to the gifts, and then there are people operating in the gifts who are closed off to God's grace (in terms of doctrine). I find that peculiar and I was somewhat dumbfounded in the past. How could someone with a revelation of God's love, through Jesus by grace, not also grasp the love behind the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Him providing gifts in order to edify and exhort others. I really didn't think such beliefs could be separated, to be honest when I first witnessed it. "A grace believer as a cessationist!? Say what?" haha
Grace IS power. The power to know God loves us completely despite those truly embarrassing moments. (Hey? Aren't you the guy who was just telling me that one yesterday?)
But another phrase for "grace believer as cessationist" is "Reformed Presbyterian," so it's not like it's a small hidden sect.
And you do know that being a cessationist doesn't mean there are no gifts. It means some of the gifts are supposed to not happen anymore. Since apostles is out, apparently the church has been operating that way for close to two millenniums now. And what doesn't happen in tongues can still happen in native language. It's just not as spectacular when you get a mixed crowd with lots of different languages all hearing the same message like it happened on Pentecost.
I will never think gifting is a point where we cannot have unity, even if we disagree. Maybe I just haven't met the Christian who thinks no gifts are around anymore.
S'alright. I didn't get that either.
Grace IS power. The power to know God loves us completely despite those truly embarrassing moments. (Hey? Aren't you the guy who was just telling me that one yesterday?)
But another phrase for "grace believer as cessationist" is "Reformed Presbyterian," so it's not like it's a small hidden sect.
And you do know that being a cessationist doesn't mean there are no gifts. It means some of the gifts are supposed to not happen anymore. Since apostles is out, apparently the church has been operating that way for close to two millenniums now. And what doesn't happen in tongues can still happen in native language. It's just not as spectacular when you get a mixed crowd with lots of different languages all hearing the same message like it happened on Pentecost.
I will never think gifting is a point where we cannot have unity, even if we disagree. Maybe I just haven't met the Christian who thinks no gifts are around anymore.
Grace IS power. The power to know God loves us completely despite those truly embarrassing moments. (Hey? Aren't you the guy who was just telling me that one yesterday?)
But another phrase for "grace believer as cessationist" is "Reformed Presbyterian," so it's not like it's a small hidden sect.
And you do know that being a cessationist doesn't mean there are no gifts. It means some of the gifts are supposed to not happen anymore. Since apostles is out, apparently the church has been operating that way for close to two millenniums now. And what doesn't happen in tongues can still happen in native language. It's just not as spectacular when you get a mixed crowd with lots of different languages all hearing the same message like it happened on Pentecost.
I will never think gifting is a point where we cannot have unity, even if we disagree. Maybe I just haven't met the Christian who thinks no gifts are around anymore.
Yes, I know that people have different definitions for cessationism in terms of how strong or militant they are. Meaning, some believe all spiritual gifts have ceased, but most cessationists believe the "sign gifts" have ceased.
VVhat I meant by power, was God working in and through us to do supernatural acts.
God can certainly do as He chooses, but even Paul wasn't healed of the thorn in his side - even after his petitions to God.
It isn't always God's desire that people are healed, given back sight, or hearing, etc. If it were, there wouldn't be a blind, deaf, or sick person in the world, thanks to the intervention of Christians.
As believers, we are called upon to sometimes suffer.
We simply pray that whatever will be, will be, according to His will.
You never responded to me (on that thread), so I didn't know if you saw that post. I hope it was and is helpful.
Yes, I know that people have different definitions for cessationism in terms of how strong or militant they are. Meaning, some believe all spiritual gifts have ceased, but most cessationists believe the "sign gifts" have ceased.
VVhat I meant by power, was God working in and through us to do supernatural acts.
Yes, I know that people have different definitions for cessationism in terms of how strong or militant they are. Meaning, some believe all spiritual gifts have ceased, but most cessationists believe the "sign gifts" have ceased.
VVhat I meant by power, was God working in and through us to do supernatural acts.
Militant. ...............hmmm . interesting choice of words
W
I believe the gifts are still active
BUT:
- I do not, like some, believe that your must have certain gifts to be a Christian. There are many gifts that seem to be ignored
- I think that some people want certain gifts so bad that they think they have them, while they really don't (ie tongues, prophecy, interpretation, dreams)
BUT:
- I do not, like some, believe that your must have certain gifts to be a Christian. There are many gifts that seem to be ignored
- I think that some people want certain gifts so bad that they think they have them, while they really don't (ie tongues, prophecy, interpretation, dreams)
K
You never responded to me (on that thread), so I didn't know if you saw that post. I hope it was and is helpful.
Yes, I know that people have different definitions for cessationism in terms of how strong or militant they are. Meaning, some believe all spiritual gifts have ceased, but most cessationists believe the "sign gifts" have ceased.
VVhat I meant by power, was God working in and through us to do supernatural acts.
Yes, I know that people have different definitions for cessationism in terms of how strong or militant they are. Meaning, some believe all spiritual gifts have ceased, but most cessationists believe the "sign gifts" have ceased.
VVhat I meant by power, was God working in and through us to do supernatural acts.