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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yeah, Actually I am.
I am either saved, Secure in Christ.
or I am not saved, doomed to hell unless I get saved.
there is no inbetween.
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Yeah, Actually I am.
I am either saved, Secure in Christ.
or I am not saved, doomed to hell unless I get saved.
there is no inbetween.
G
ggs7
Guest
here is an interesting verse to consider
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Been talked about in this thread.....
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136215-destruction.html#post2619975
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I do not see thos saying one can lose salvation, I think This only says that a person who hears the word of truth, and walks in it, having not fully accepted it, then turns away to go back to what he truly had faith in, In gthe day of Christ when they stand on judgment, it will be worse for them.
Imagine having a winning ticket in your had, the payout is 1 billion dollars tax free. Only to at the last minute, change your mind, Because you do not TRUST that it will give you anything. It is worse for you, than the person who never went near that ticket..
I disagree that faith isn't real unless it's acted upon. Faith isn't activated by a certain event or something.. If you have faith even the size of a grain of salt, you can move mountains.To have faith, you need only to believe.
I think they are talking about faith Isn't real unless Its acted upon when It comes to men looking at the outward appearances,but when It comes to GOD,GOD does not need to see a persons faith In action In a physical way.
P
PurerInHeart
Guest
Yes, Paul said even he can be disqualified for the prize (heaven) if he doesn't run in such a way to win the race.
If this "prize" that Paul was talking about is heaven ( it could be that we are assuming Paul means heaven) ..then salvation would all depend on our efforts and what we did.
This is in no way the gospel of the grace of Christ. The gospel is what Christ has already done for us. I think we need to find out just what this "prize" is that Paul was referring to.
We have word for word examples of the gospel being preached.
This is the gospel that Peter preached to Cornelius in Acts 10. Paul in Acts 13 said the exact same thing when he preached the gospel only he had a different audience - the Jews.
Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
B
bikerchaz
Guest
I am not going to vote, it does not show 'pure love' to those who may vote in opposition to my own opinion, it shows them I think or know that they are wrong. Therefore I think this pole is wrong.
We are all called to love God with all our hearts and minds and strength, to love our neighbours as ourselves, to love our enemies, turn the other cheek and go that extra mile, even then we have only done our duty.
When we argue and fuss about what Only God can do we are taking our eyes of our goal. If I as a servant of my master am not right in your eyes, dose that mean God has lost control of me and can't do with His servant as He sees fit. I am His servant not yours and visa versa.
If a brother or sister is in error should your answer be this;
Or knowing they are, or profess to be, God's servant's, should we not then take our fears to God Himself for Him to show us His reasoning behind their actions and words or insight to their way of life. This is easily done and what I have been struggling with these last couple of days.
God has shown me he will not let me go, even if I let go of Him. He has shown me and reminded me, the ten commandments when inverted are to be taken as Gods promises to us and will show in our lives as the fruit of the Spirit that lives inside our very beings. I still have to be a violent man and hold what I have been given with force because the darkness I have come from that pollutes my very existence, a bit like Lot, Abraham's nephew after coming out of Sodom.
In this I can praise my God who is faithful to hold me so tightly, but I do not hold to the view that my behaviour does not matter and that I
The Holy Spirit confirms this within me. If you have a problem with what God has bought me to, that is between God and you, not me and you. I chose to love you no matter what, That is the upshot of what Jesus has told me to do. Love the brethren (and the sisterhood too).
We are all called to love God with all our hearts and minds and strength, to love our neighbours as ourselves, to love our enemies, turn the other cheek and go that extra mile, even then we have only done our duty.
When we argue and fuss about what Only God can do we are taking our eyes of our goal. If I as a servant of my master am not right in your eyes, dose that mean God has lost control of me and can't do with His servant as He sees fit. I am His servant not yours and visa versa.
If a brother or sister is in error should your answer be this;
Or knowing they are, or profess to be, God's servant's, should we not then take our fears to God Himself for Him to show us His reasoning behind their actions and words or insight to their way of life. This is easily done and what I have been struggling with these last couple of days.
God has shown me he will not let me go, even if I let go of Him. He has shown me and reminded me, the ten commandments when inverted are to be taken as Gods promises to us and will show in our lives as the fruit of the Spirit that lives inside our very beings. I still have to be a violent man and hold what I have been given with force because the darkness I have come from that pollutes my very existence, a bit like Lot, Abraham's nephew after coming out of Sodom.
In this I can praise my God who is faithful to hold me so tightly, but I do not hold to the view that my behaviour does not matter and that I
should have no problem at all knowing there is no possible way for you to go to hell by walking away
from God.
The Holy Spirit confirms this within me. If you have a problem with what God has bought me to, that is between God and you, not me and you. I chose to love you no matter what, That is the upshot of what Jesus has told me to do. Love the brethren (and the sisterhood too).
G
ggs7
Guest
I would like to say no, but we still, I think ,have a choice. I think we can believe Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God and latter on through trials (1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith and 1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you (your faith)) or whatever we can consciously deny him and not follow him and be overcome as mentioned by Peter.
What about the disciples (those that believed in Jesus) abandoned him by choice when they were tried. John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples (believers/followers) went back, and walked no more with him. Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And in Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Something to think about.
Hi GGS7,
Regarding not being able to lose your salvation, what do you think about the following scripture:
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Also, why would we have so many warnings throughout scripture about the consequences of living according to the sinful nature? Our salvation is dependent on continuing from faith to faith. If a believer stops having faith and goes goes back to living according to the sinful nature, see the scripture above.
"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. "
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J
JohnOne
Guest
I am going to share God's words. I would like to share a verse that is deep heart felt and pure.
Within Paul's Final Parting words to the Ephesian Elders he said this. These men were appointed as elders by the Holy Spirit, and as such they were to shepherd the flock of God, among which God had placed them. You need to think about it and feel as Paul felt it deep in his heart.
Acts 20:29-31 KJV For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Now with that said think carefully. About these verses and what you truly believe.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJV The soul that sinneth, it shall die................
Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not...................
Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not...................
Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not...................
Ephesians 5:5-6 KJV For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Those words above in those last two verses were spoken to the Ephesians
Finally once again Paul's Parting words to the Elders of the Ephesians
Acts 20:29-31 KJV For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Within Paul's Final Parting words to the Ephesian Elders he said this. These men were appointed as elders by the Holy Spirit, and as such they were to shepherd the flock of God, among which God had placed them. You need to think about it and feel as Paul felt it deep in his heart.
Acts 20:29-31 KJV For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Now with that said think carefully. About these verses and what you truly believe.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJV The soul that sinneth, it shall die................
Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not...................
Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not...................
Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not...................
Ephesians 5:5-6 KJV For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Those words above in those last two verses were spoken to the Ephesians
Finally once again Paul's Parting words to the Elders of the Ephesians
Acts 20:29-31 KJV For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
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Why do we focus so much on this subject? Is it fear for i could understand that once you have come to know the Lord and our Heavenly Father i fear losing them as well....and yet the Lord said i will never leave you or forsake you, and also that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) will forever abide in you. So to me those listed above that Paul had written warnings about in regards to falling away or following grievous wolves, think and consider this that THEY WALKED AWAY from Christ not the other way around, and those they give up and decide to be a part of the world once again....THEY WALKED AWAY. So we in my humble opinion should never judge or use words as you will lose your salvation for He will never leave or forsake us and the Holy Spirit will forever abide in us...lest we for those without much faith or knowledge send them WALKING AWAY from Christ..so instead of stating your going to lose your salvation...perhaps it be better that we ask them why are you walking away?
Hi brother Ahwatukee,
I have thought of those verses you mentioned to ggs7 and I will answer them if you don't mind.
Here is James scripture:
James 5:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
One way of seeing this is this "Brethren" is a term used by all Jewish people for each other , whether believers or not. James was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. James is the first book written and at that time Jewish believers and non-believers were in the synagogues together. The term "brethren" can be seen used by Paul and Peter a lot in Acts when speaking to Jewish people. ( it could mean just Jewish believers too but his epistle would have been read in all places and heard from both believers and unbelievers).
So, James is saying if one of you should "stray" from the truth ( Which we know is Jesus ). The word Greek word "stray" means to be deceived. Here is Jesus using the word and He calls it "to err"..because of not knowing the scriptures.
Mark 12:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
This statement in verse 20 " he who turns a sinner from the error of his way' . The Greek word "turns" is the same word Peter used when talking in Acts 3:19 ( return ) when talking to the Jewish people after Pentecost. To turn means "to be converted" - as in believe and receive Christ.
Acts 3:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
.
James also calls this person a "Sinner" which is the complete opposite of what Paul calls believers - he always referred them as "saints" no matter what outward sin they were into ( see 1 Cor. where people were going to temple prostitutes foe sex etc. - yet Paul still calls them "saints" ) It's a matter of identity as a child of God.
I believe this passage in James is talking about Jewish brethren that have heard of Christ but do not believe in Jesus and thus wander from receiving Him as He is the Truth. Even "if" James was talking about believers it does not say that they go too hell. It says that their soul will be saved from death ( soul is used sometimes to talk about life here on earth as when Herod wanted Jesus' soul when He was a baby and they moved to Egypt to get away ).
I agree living from the flesh will destroy our life here on this earth. However to say that a believer in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit will not be with the Lord when they die goes against the abundance of clear scripture that say the complete opposite.
The rule is = never let obscure scriptures "rob" us of the truth that is in the multitude of scriptures that we know. If obscure scriptures "seem" to contradict the abundance of clear scriptures then we are not interpreting those scriptures correctly and need the Holy Spirit to reveal those to us.
There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is fulfilled.....example
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
If so be that ye continue in the faith ([FONT="Gentium" !important]ei ge epimenete tēi pistei[/FONT]).
Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the New Testament.
Sorry for the long post but this is very involved and there is so much more one can say about these passages in James 5:19-20.
J
JohnOne
Guest
Who is judging...... God's words were shared that is all.
Do you mean this Holy Spirit ( God )?
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.....................
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Now lets read carefully.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The same Holy Spirit that gives the gift of faith through which grace comes said this....listen carefully God's word.
The same Holy Spirit Speaking Expressly in this verse:
1 Timothy 4:1 KJV Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
According to God ( The Holy Spirit ) speaking expressly, the same Holy Spirit ( God ) who gives gift of faith says that some will depart from that faith.
You are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. God's words not mine. No judging just sharing God's words on the matter.
Hello and welcome to CC,
What I see in Acts is Paul warning the elders of Ephesus about false teachers coming in - like the ones coming in and saying to "do works" in order to "maintain" salvation as Paul talked about it Galatians.
I'm confused about the last 2 verses Paul said in Ephesians.
These are the last two verses.
Ephesians 6:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.
Ephesians is the very book that Paul said we were "sealed with the Holy Spirit" when we believed.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Paul also said that we were saved by grace through faith in Christ alone - not what we do or don't do after we come to Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
You did nothing to "earn" salvation and you can do nothing "to keep and maintain it"
Take a look at this scripture below and ponder the "much mores" in them.
Romans 5:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
J
JohnOne
Guest
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.....................
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Now lets read carefully.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The same Holy Spirit that gives the gift of faith through which grace comes said this....listen carefully God's word.
The same Holy Spirit Speaking Expressly in this verse:
1 Timothy 4:1 KJV Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shalldepart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
According to God ( The Holy Spirit ) speaking expressly, the same Holy Spirit ( God ) who gives gift of faith says that some will depart from that faith.
You are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. God's words not mine. No judging just sharing God's words on the matter.
It helps to define terms when discussing things in scriptures.
1 Tim. 4:1 To "depart from the faith" means to not believe in Christ as Savior and His sacrifice. We are told to be obedient to the faith which is to receive Christ and some people will not be obedient and come to Christ.
Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
1 Tim. 4:1 To "depart from the faith" means to not believe in Christ as Savior and His sacrifice. We are told to be obedient to the faith which is to receive Christ and some people will not be obedient and come to Christ.
Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
J
JohnOne
Guest
Ephesians 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So Paul, who wrote of the seal of the Holy Spirit in Eph. chapters 1 and 4, shows by these other scriptures what the seal meant to him.
Ephesians 5:5-7 KJV For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Paul wanted Christians, who were sealed with the Holy Spirit, to know that No immoral, impure or greedy person - such a man is an idolater - has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. In other words, he wanted them to know that the seal would not prevent those sins from nullifying their inheritance of the kingdom.
In the same breath that Paul wrote of the seal of the Holy Spirit he also warned Christians that sin could cause loss of salvation and being sealed with the Holy Spirit wouldn’t prevent this!