And this is relevant how?
Obviously they did more than preach the gospel, despite your denial. Thousands at a time showed up.
Contrast of The Mega Church with the Bible Believing Church
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And this is relevant how?
that's relevant because the Apostles who founded the church put on a REALLY EXTRAORDINARY show. no doubt great crowds gathered who were drawn by such fleshy things as amazement and curiosity and thrill-seeking. God seemed pleased to gather wheat and tares together.
a couple of responses i already brought up -
- that preaching to 5,000 people with varying degrees of spiritual development, understanding, knowledge and actual interest in the Bible, a person makes some choices about what is the best way to present the gospel that will reach the biggest proportion of the audience. Jesus taught in parables to the multitudes because His audience was diverse. in smaller groups, He taught more deeply.
- mega churches, like almost all churches, encourage people to go beyond sunday-morning and get deeply involved in smaller group studies and prayer. here, deeper teaching and more intimate understanding is shared. here, we get the actual body of the church expressing itself through all people involved -- the church that Yet so often reminds us we're supposed to be a member of. so you can't judge a church by its sunday morning 'show' -- what's going on in the heart of the congregation goes on in smaller group formats.
- you said you were 'part of the crowd' at one single church. i didn't hear whether you were part of any smaller bible study groups ..? whether if one was not satisfactory, you tried another? regardless, i don't think anyone on this thread, or even in this whole forum, is really in a position to describe 'most' or 'all' churches of any size. we may have some experience in a dozen or two at the most -- and that's only a few of us in special circumstances, i'd guess. what you see on TV or read about in critical news briefs doesn't necessarily reflect all or even most churches of any scale, and judging them because they sing some songs by hillsong or something is a really error-prone method IMHO.
i just don't think we have the kind of information to make those kinds of statements. not unless we go deeply into these places -- and do that in most of them.
- the fruit described in the OP is seen just as much in churches of any scale. like i said just a post or two above this one, there are 'spectators' even in churches of only 100 or less. they're probably a majority in a majority of churches. this is magnified by the scale of a super-church-mart, because the number of people who are just 'in the crowd' is so much greater. someone said that you could just as easily flip the chart around and the descriptions would fit 'traditional' American churches too, with pipe organs and hymnals and liturgical choir robes. i think that's probably accurate in a lot of cases, but just like i don't think i have enough info to judge mega-church-plexes, i don't have enough info to judge mini-chapels either.
how about in your church?
if i just came one sunday a month or so and took off right after service to try to make it to lunch ASAP, without talking to anyone, would i get 'the full gospel' ?
or would i have to involve myself in fellowship outside of sunday-morning liturgy?
. . because that's what is commonly said is the habit of a majority of church-goers around this country, no matter what size church, what denomination, etc.
i love my church. i love the people and the Spirit that moves among them. but no one here -- and more than one speaker behind the dais ((we're not fancy enough to have a pulpit)) has expressed the same -- no one here pretends that sunday morning service is 'enough' to get the full gospel and the full fellowship of Christian life. sunday morning service ≠ discipleship.
Jesus told His apostles to go out and immerse people in the name of God, making disciples. 'immersion' is quite a bit more than getting a quick rinse-off once a week or so.
((cool! shorter post. trying to work on brevity haha))
Yet, i don't know how often i say this, but here's another invitation to you to come to church with me this wednesday. 6:30pm -- we'll eat a pot-luck ((you don't have to bring anything and no one will ask you for $$ or even mention that you didn't bring anything)) and then all sit in a circle, pray for understanding, and talk about the Bible together, then we'll all pray together again thanking Him for all He's shown us and done in our lives at the end of the night. we'll take turns reading scripture and sharing what the Spirit says in each of us. if anyone is led to share a whole 'sermon' worth of teaching, go right ahead. maybe want to give someone a heads-up so we can expect you to fill out a night. it'll probably run till 9:30pm because we love each other and we love talking about the word and enjoying fellowship, praising God for how great He is and marveling over the mystery of godliness being revealed in us through Jesus Christ, and the time just seems to get away every week.
but you can leave whenever you need to.
i ain't even gonna ask you to come to sunday morning service. the real church meets on other days too, and that's where meat is served.
open invitation always standing for everyone here
Or maybe because they focus on the Good News . . .
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (from Acts 2)
Churches that preach the Good News of the Work of Christ and love people well tend to grow.
That's normal.
That's healthy.
Some people and local bodies take great PRIDE in the fact that they are small and 'set apart' because they adhere to a certain mode of worship, dress, or emphasis on certain perceived doctrines. That isn't healthy. That's isolationist. They tend to work very hard to DISQUALIFY as many as they can from their exclusivity instead of proclaiming the INCLUSIVITY of the Good News of the Work of Christ - "Whosoever will . . . "
Healthy, Fruit-bearing plants REPRODUCE. They increase in number. It's inevitable.
The comparison list in the OP ignores realities of culture. That list, for instance, would not fly in many third world or closed countries (closed meaning that they forbid the preaching of the Gospel, Bibles, Hymnals, etc.). Like it or not, there are layers of culture in the Body of Christ, and not every local body will worship in the same way. They will worship the same God, however!
The Body of Christ can have UNITY without having UNIFORMITY.
God is so much more flexible than our lists. Paul liked to keep it simple:
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness,holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” (from 1 Cor. 1)
Interestingly, Paul was writing that to a body of believers who were struggling with 'appropriateness' in their local governance and worship.
Paul kept pointing them to Christ and building them up in who they were in Christ. Everything was to be rooted in the realities of Christ and who we are in Him and established in love for one another.
If you come across a church, big OR small, that is not preaching the Good News of the Work of Christ, then don't go there. If they are preaching Christ, but not loving others, big or small, don't go there either.
If you come across a big OR small church that IS preaching the Good News of the Work of Christ and to love others well, then rejoice! Because that local body, big or small, IS what God intended!
-JGIG
You're projecting a cultural musical preference onto what your PERCEPTION of Godly worship is.
That's a mistake.
There are so many wonderful worship songs out there that are Christ-centered and lift Him up in worship and praise.
-JGIG
J
jasonj
Guest
WOW ! probably the best post ive ever encountered on this site. and exposes one of the main issues with the fading church in the privileged world today. just a thought, spending time in the truly poor and forgottene places in the world is where the purest gospel has its best and most powerful spirit filled effects. Things done by God that are straight out of the gospel and acts. many refuse to believe this until they experience it first hand. The gospel truly is alive and well in the unseen places of the world. and surprisingly, the issue of the new wave gospels littered with humanism, greed, and self worship, are nearly non existant. even when a weed comes up, it is not an issue because the false doctrines don't find profit in these places, they are geared much more toward the privileged places in the world, where riches and personal success are the desire of the heart.
you don't find worldly wealth in the poorest places, but you find a richness of spirit and brotherly Love like nowhere else in the world. people act as the church in acts, sharing and caring for the needs of others. personal prosperity is often having food enough to feed the hungry neighbors and is considered an honor and privilege to do so. Peace, and sincerity is seen and known, as well as true godly Love even when language barriers are a small issue.
reallllly good post, God bless
.
It's important to note that the OP is just an OPINION about what some PERCEIVE to be the 'biblical' standard of worship.
-JGIG
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Whew! Good. Because that "Bible-believing church" described in the OP also included the works of a good tailor or department store, the works of songbooks, and the works of a haughty attitude.
this is the key, there is nothing wrong with having different opinions, but when someone starts shouting SIN, WRONG, because something is different, that is WRONG.
L
ladylynn
Guest
Please Lynn, if you would., post where I have ever said to anyone on this site (you included) who are disabled (or not) that disability comes or is because of a lack of faith. That is my request and challenge to you Lynn. You will not be able to meet my request or my challenge because I have never said such a thing.
Again., you misrepresent me and my words over and over based on your poor interpretation of what you think I believe. What you just wrote here "...have pretty much told everyone on this site that are disabled we are only disabled because we lack faith" Where? How? When?
Where? No where. How? I don't. When? Never. I will however give my personal thoughts about someone who might have a disability like 'you' for instance Lynn who posts on these forums. Having a disability does not give you the right to be mean or rude or untruthful. It does not give you free wheeling access to say or do what ever you please just because you have a disability or even because you may be upset or misunderstood.
A disabled believer has just as much a calling as a non disabled believer to be truthful and honest and loving. Maybe the reason you are not so pleased with me is that I don't treat you any differently as a sister in Christ because of your disability. And if that is true in your case., it is you who needs to change. Something to consider Lynn.
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lol After all this, you have a different image of a smaller church than I do. That "dinky" church we went to -- the one that failed -- had 60 people in it, and yes I count kids as people. If 50-75 people went but weren't active, then we might as well have gone to a diner for breakfast on Sunday. At least they'd have something to feed our bellies.
Most churches we belonged to didn't get beyond 100-120 people. We usually found the believers within a month. (We usually found the believers by the end of the first visit, but we didn't know if they really were believers until about a month.) Small church means seek out the new folks immediately, so we don't scare them away through isolation. Believers quickly become meet-and-greets at small churches simply from default. (If we don't do it, who will?) Scary thought since I rarely make a good first impression. That was fine, because once you get to know me, you know that, so others would be with me so I didn't scare off the new folks too. But at least I gave the right first impression -- "we're not perfect, but we love God."
And, yeah. I'm also very aware that our mega church is terrifying the first time in it. We found out about them through James Boice books. We liked them because James Boice was the teacher. (Go to Sermon Audio and pick out any sermon by James Boice. You'll like him too because he knew the bible so well, yet put it into language even I can understand.) But COLD! Everyone seemed so stand-offish that it even scared me, and I'm naturally stand-offish. (Well, I was. Just recently, I've noticed that's really changed about me.)
I knew if we were ever going to stay, I'd need to learn the inner-workings of the place, because those words didn't match that attitude. And, sure enough, I was right. Everyone was stand-offish because those weren't their people. It is very much like how the Israelites lived. They were all one people distinctly separated by tribes. This was like walking over to the tabernacle one day. The tabernacle was to spend time with God. My camp was where to spend time with my people. Those Home Churches were the camps. After church someone from one of the camps invited us to the only Home Church he knew, but that was one in the Northeast. (A section of Philadelphia. We're in South Philly, so the Northeast doesn't feel like home either.) Kind of like being from the tribe of Dan and getting sent off to Reuben. There we learned about another Home Church, until someone in one of those Home Churches pointed us to the right church -- that dinky church. That was South Philly's tribe.
What I stumbled into that Sunday was a lot of people from those different Home Churches meeting together to be one with all the bros. They were one, but they didn't know each other. I think the people who truly belonged at that church came at the later service. (Big church, small building, so three services on Sunday.) After I got to the point of understanding what we stumbled into, I think I know what tribe that Home Church is -- the Levites. Most of the people who go to that particular church are in the fulltime ministry, and they go there to refresh. Some are missionaries from near and far. The ones from far are back for a few weeks reconnecting with their families and those who support them on the mission fields. Others are working with college students or counselors at their different ministries. I only figured that out from my struggle trying to find a place to fit.
I really do need to know da rulez and how all pieces fit so I joined a small group called "mercy ministry." Our job was to let everyone know which ministries were available to help. We did that by contacting the different ministries, writing about them in a newsletter, and then sending the newsletter out to all the different churches and Home churches in the Presbyteries so people would know how to fit in themselves. (We also went to those different churches to tell what we do, which terrified me. Get me to write -- yay! Get me to talk in front of a group of strangers and
Huge churches are complicated, but if they're bible-believing they learn how to do it from how God set up 3 million Israelites that looked like they were just wandering in the wilderness. (I'm still counting the children... and the women. lol)
After figuring out the structure of the churches we joined, usually I can say, "The majority are believers, but not everyone." It's not 20% either.
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Where do your stats come from? How do you know this? I'd like to see those numbers.
J
JustWhoIAm
Guest
There are big things happening right now. Stuff is going down.
It's probably scary for a lot of church-goers, probably very uncomfortable. But despite this...
The reality is that the church should probably start taking a look at being more word-centered, hardcore, sold-out.
If the signs of the times are any indication at all, we're on trial. This is the last time to be messing around with anything but what life actually means according to the gospel and why, so far as i can tell.
It's probably scary for a lot of church-goers, probably very uncomfortable. But despite this...
The reality is that the church should probably start taking a look at being more word-centered, hardcore, sold-out.
If the signs of the times are any indication at all, we're on trial. This is the last time to be messing around with anything but what life actually means according to the gospel and why, so far as i can tell.
L
ladylynn
Guest
I fear you miss the point entirely. The people come because the whole gospel is not preached. Therefore, many unconverted souls headed straight for hell
If you think all churches preach the correct gospel you may be sadly mistaken
Christ didnt say in end times more truth would prevail but he said :
Unfortunately, many will be deceived into following the wrong Jesus. The apostle Paul wrote, “I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough” (2 Corinthians 11:3, 4, NIV). The apostle is writing to the Christians of the early church. He warns them concerning false apostles who were preaching about a Jesus who is not the real Jesus of the Bible—a fictitious Jesus, a fabrication of the corrupt imaginations and erroneous thinking of those who want to deceive God’s people. The gospel associated with this false christ is a different gospel; it is not the gospel recorded in the Bible and preached by the true apostles. Further, this false gospel is accompanied by a counterfeit spirit—not the Holy Spirit.
Who is behind these false christs? It is none other than Satan himself. Speaking of these false christs and false prophets, Paul wrote, “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Is it not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, NIV). These false christs masquerade as “servants of righteousness,” just as their master, Satan, masquerades as an angel of light.
In addition to these false christs—false teachers and prophets—the Bible says that just before Jesus returns a “man of lawlessness will appear visibly on Earth. “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4, NIV). In this profound prophecy of last-day events, the Bible says there is going to be a rebellion, an apostasy, a great falling away from the faith. In conjunction with this apostasy, a “man of lawlessness will appear. This individual is truly a false christ of the greatest magnitude. He is also known as the Antichrist. This great false christ will set himself up in God’s temple and counterfeit the ministry of Jesus.
What will happen to this false Christ and how will we recognize him? The Bible says, “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:8-10, NIV). The followers of the counterfeit christ are deceived because they refuse to love God’s truth as revealed in his Holy Bible.
Jesus emphasized that it is not enough to simply profess the name of the Lord in order to enter into heaven. Besides taking the name of a follower of Jesus, we also need to actually follow Him. We need to do the Father’s will. Jesus said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21, NIV). Jesus also declares, “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:40, NIV). Thus we need to look to Jesus, God’s Son. We need to spend time contemplating His life and the words He spoke and the things He did. Jesus assures us, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24, NIV).
Tragically, those who are deceived in the last days by these false christs will sincerely regard themselves to be genuine believers, actively doing the work of Christ. They will even prophesy in the name of Jesus, cast out demons in the name of Jesus, and work miracles in His name. But they are serving a false Christ—not the real Jesus. “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers’ ” (Matthew 7:22, 23, NIV). The followers of the false Christ disregard the commandments of Jesus. In contrast, Jesus declares, “Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him” (John 14:21, NIV).
I believe that we are living in the days before the coming of Christ for His bride the church. Lots of people call it the church age of grace. Before the catching away of the bride referred to by many as the rapture of the church. 1 Thess.4:13-18
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is going out even more than ever before due to it's accessibility all over the world. Mega and non mega churches are preaching the Gospel. We live in amazing times right now. People have opportunity to hear about the love of God and how He sent His Son Jesus to save us from our sins and the penalty and wrath to come just like in Noah's time before the judgment of the coming flood. (so many pictures in the Bible about this event to come)
This is GOOD NEWS. I've heard it also called the Benjamin generation. Joseph's brother Benjamin was his favorite among his brothers because they shared the same mother Rachael. We are highly favored as His church. And we have such an opportunity to understand the Bible and it's proper interpretation. We are "in the Beloved" And we have the love of God to share with the world. We have the Good news of the Gospel to give out. It is GOOD NEWS., not bad news.
No one has to face the wrath of God if they accept God's provision IN His Son Jesus Christ. We live in the time of grace before Jesus comes for His church and take us out of here before the revealing of the anti christ.., those who have the SEAL of His HolySpirit. God's wrath is not being poured out now. There is time for people to come to Jesus but I believe the time is coming to a close too.
I believe we are living before the tribulation comes. I'm of the 'pre-trib' bunch of believers. God's wrath was poured out already on Christ for us. We are not appointed to wrath because we are IN Christ now. So, if I don't die first before Jesus comes back, I will be with other believers who are still here (those who are alive and remain) If I do die before Jesus comes for the church before the tribulation., I'll be reunited with my physical body and given a totally new body when the dead in Christ will rise first at the trumpet sound and the voice of the archangel.
We have a blessed hope. A sure salvation and we are to be walking in assurance and security because of Jesus. God wants us to know we have eternal life because of His Son. We have a blessed assurance..,not an expectation of judgment. Amen!!
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Peachy-keen. So, while I'm busy getting ready for a dentist appointment, followed by seeing hubby, and then squishing in some housework, why don't I just go back and find a post I wrote last year under my old account and you responded to to prove what you and I already know to be true. Sure! I'll pencil that in.
(This is one of your tactics. The Church Lady attitude really doesn't work for me either. I don't like passive-aggressive feining as syrupy sweet and innocent. Also a reason I usually ignore you, except you've taken this far enough that your Grace-only folks have taken over this site now.)
J
JustWhoIAm
Guest
*Sigh*
Look at the church in acts.
K, Now look at the church today.
This doesn't cut it. We're called to a higher standard than this.
Look at the church in acts.
K, Now look at the church today.
This doesn't cut it. We're called to a higher standard than this.