Thank you for giving me the understanding. The only issue I have is the response of paul after He said where sin abound Grace did much more....... Paul is recorded as saying should we sin more that grace abound more " God Forbids". How do you think that later plays into the contextual meaning of these passages in the chapter?
Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?
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I believe the answer is in the very next verses where Paul says that we need to know that we have died with Christ and are now dead to sin ( the noun - which is the law of sin in our flesh still - this is different from the verb to "sin").
Paul uses the noun "sin" 48 times in Rom 6-8 in which he is talking about a "thing" which is in our flesh.
Our old man was crucified with Christ on the cross "in order that the body of sin may be done away with (- in Greek = to be made useless, made idle, )
This body of sin made "idle or useless" means that it will not have dominion over us any more because we are now "in Christ"...we are a new creation. We are to live now from our inner man which ahs been created in righteousness and holiness. All this comes by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.
We now can walk by the spirit within us and not be dominated by the flesh. This is a process as we grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord.
Grace is never a license "to" sin...it's freedom "from" sin....it's more of an understanding of where we live now as Christians.
We are not in the flesh but in the spirit as Paul says in Romans 8:9 ( a sphere of where we reside or live now that we are in Christ ) Knowing we are not in the flesh but in the spirit releases the live of Christ in our outward lives to live holy by grace. Romans 6:8
Romans 6:4-8 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Paul uses the noun "sin" 48 times in Rom 6-8 in which he is talking about a "thing" which is in our flesh.
Our old man was crucified with Christ on the cross "in order that the body of sin may be done away with (- in Greek = to be made useless, made idle, )
This body of sin made "idle or useless" means that it will not have dominion over us any more because we are now "in Christ"...we are a new creation. We are to live now from our inner man which ahs been created in righteousness and holiness. All this comes by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.
We now can walk by the spirit within us and not be dominated by the flesh. This is a process as we grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord.
Grace is never a license "to" sin...it's freedom "from" sin....it's more of an understanding of where we live now as Christians.
We are not in the flesh but in the spirit as Paul says in Romans 8:9 ( a sphere of where we reside or live now that we are in Christ ) Knowing we are not in the flesh but in the spirit releases the live of Christ in our outward lives to live holy by grace. Romans 6:8
Romans 6:4-8 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
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E
things are getting out of hand in this thread...I laid off posting because of the ongoing conflict between personalities, however, I have been reading here and there
I'm pretty sure that herose is the one who began the accusations of hyper-grace...a term coined by someone outside of these forums
inspirit and herose seem to be exaggerating and sadly, just plain lying in some of what they are stating...including changing names of sites and so on in order to make themselves righteous
herose is well known for making posts that are actually attacks against a person
of course inspirit considers himself a prophetic teacher of some sort and don't disagree with him or he will post a litany of verses hand chosen just for your personal rebuke
I think this thread should be shut down and this topic forbidden for a month or so to give it all a rest
it seems certain folk may be working hard to get someone banned....it's so obvious
I'm pretty sure that herose is the one who began the accusations of hyper-grace...a term coined by someone outside of these forums
inspirit and herose seem to be exaggerating and sadly, just plain lying in some of what they are stating...including changing names of sites and so on in order to make themselves righteous
herose is well known for making posts that are actually attacks against a person
of course inspirit considers himself a prophetic teacher of some sort and don't disagree with him or he will post a litany of verses hand chosen just for your personal rebuke
I think this thread should be shut down and this topic forbidden for a month or so to give it all a rest
it seems certain folk may be working hard to get someone banned....it's so obvious
That's right, and it's gotten ridiculous, so let me be one to call them out, since 'know1' just posted his doubt, I'll start with him, and ask the two other most obvious culprits,
Hrfd and Ppthru, and there's a few others that have been siding with them, and going Against the posts of Grace7's, JGIG, e_g, Gr8ce, gb, mailman, and others, forgive me, but as for the first names :
What exactly is your problem with the folks who want to praise the Lord for purchasing their salvation for them, and giving God all the glory for giving them full pardon and eternal life as a gift?!
What is your big beef, why does it bother you so much?
They say they're saved by grace, apart from any works on their part,
and they want to express that joy of salvation, give thanks to the Lord, and share that good news with others.
Why, Ppthru, hrfd and others, do you want to rain on their parade?
You ppl seem to have a more negative, gloom and doom message,
like the song, You better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout I'm telling you why, 'Angry God' is coming, look out!
Your message seems to be....
He sees you when you're sleeping, awake, sitting on the toilet, he knows every nasty little thought that ever runs thru your brain, and you better clean up your act and behave and get obedient and follow all the laws AND the rituals and He then will Probably save you, but you can never be TOO sure,
SOOO, you better watch out, 'cause a lump of coal would be a welcome blessing compared to what He's got in store for you if you don't obey!
I mean, if THAT's what you believe, or want to believe, you are free within yourself to do so, and work out your own version of salvation with as much fear, trembling, fingernail-biting, swallowing hard and sweating as you need,
but why do you have to insist on that for others?
Where, really, is your good news?
Where is the joy that we can all share in,
and rejoice in this great thing you've found
that sets us all free and gives God all the glory?
Please, if I'm misrepresenting you, I will apologize,
but I've read enough over time to not think so.
When I see mailmandan, Grace7s, JGIG, ladylynn,
so many others, posting about God's grace and goodness
and mercy, and love and joy and peace with Him, ALL
because of Jesus and who He is and what He's done for us,
I get really moved,
honestly, sometimes swallowing hard because of tears of JOY,
not 'Uh-Ohs',
but when I read the posts of some of you others too much,
I tell ya, I even start to doubt my own salvation a bit...like maybe I'm NOT saved, maybe Jesus DIDN'T pay for my sins, maybe there's things I gotta do to make Really, Really sure that it's gonna be all right somehow.
But then I have to shake that off and go NO! .....
No, No, No! Jesus paid it ALL, ALL to HIM I owe,
Sin, my sin, my wicked rebellious, wayward, sinful heart of sin,
Sin had left a crimson stain...and that stain was permanent, indelible,
horrible, and had me heading for the hell I deserved,
But God, But Jesus, My Lord and Saviour, He washed it
He washed it away...White as snow!
He did that for ALL of us, if you only believe in Him, and
that's the good news we want to share with you and rejoice
together as brothers and sisters and friends in Christ!
Despite some harsh words, or animosity, (and we all have our personalities, and strengths and weaknesses in communicating),
most of the so-called 'grace ppl', (and they don't all agree on things themselves, I, myself have seen JPrince maybe a handful of times, and I'm not in any camp except Jesus', I pray.....
and folks like Copeland, Dollar, Osteen, Hinn, errr, don't get me started)
anyway, the folks HERE, (I'm not saying TV ppl, idk), mostly are motivated by a desire to see ppl saved and set free and Jesus to get the glory, I believe, and they have plenty of posts to prove it.
But I would like to hear from those who are so often IN OPPOSITION with dan, grace7, JGIG, ladylynn, who else, Ben, e_g, oh, there's so many, forgive me, but, What is the motivation behind YOUR message, as it seems so different then theirs.
And God bless you all, and I mean that,
and sorry for the long post, but I really hope
it gets read and replied to. There's GOT to
be a way to come together in reconciliation.
Thanks.
Hrfd and Ppthru, and there's a few others that have been siding with them, and going Against the posts of Grace7's, JGIG, e_g, Gr8ce, gb, mailman, and others, forgive me, but as for the first names :
What exactly is your problem with the folks who want to praise the Lord for purchasing their salvation for them, and giving God all the glory for giving them full pardon and eternal life as a gift?!
What is your big beef, why does it bother you so much?
They say they're saved by grace, apart from any works on their part,
and they want to express that joy of salvation, give thanks to the Lord, and share that good news with others.
Why, Ppthru, hrfd and others, do you want to rain on their parade?
You ppl seem to have a more negative, gloom and doom message,
like the song, You better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout I'm telling you why, 'Angry God' is coming, look out!
Your message seems to be....
He sees you when you're sleeping, awake, sitting on the toilet, he knows every nasty little thought that ever runs thru your brain, and you better clean up your act and behave and get obedient and follow all the laws AND the rituals and He then will Probably save you, but you can never be TOO sure,
SOOO, you better watch out, 'cause a lump of coal would be a welcome blessing compared to what He's got in store for you if you don't obey!
I mean, if THAT's what you believe, or want to believe, you are free within yourself to do so, and work out your own version of salvation with as much fear, trembling, fingernail-biting, swallowing hard and sweating as you need,
but why do you have to insist on that for others?
Where, really, is your good news?
Where is the joy that we can all share in,
and rejoice in this great thing you've found
that sets us all free and gives God all the glory?
Please, if I'm misrepresenting you, I will apologize,
but I've read enough over time to not think so.
When I see mailmandan, Grace7s, JGIG, ladylynn,
so many others, posting about God's grace and goodness
and mercy, and love and joy and peace with Him, ALL
because of Jesus and who He is and what He's done for us,
I get really moved,
honestly, sometimes swallowing hard because of tears of JOY,
not 'Uh-Ohs',
but when I read the posts of some of you others too much,
I tell ya, I even start to doubt my own salvation a bit...like maybe I'm NOT saved, maybe Jesus DIDN'T pay for my sins, maybe there's things I gotta do to make Really, Really sure that it's gonna be all right somehow.
But then I have to shake that off and go NO! .....
No, No, No! Jesus paid it ALL, ALL to HIM I owe,
Sin, my sin, my wicked rebellious, wayward, sinful heart of sin,
Sin had left a crimson stain...and that stain was permanent, indelible,
horrible, and had me heading for the hell I deserved,
But God, But Jesus, My Lord and Saviour, He washed it
He washed it away...White as snow!
He did that for ALL of us, if you only believe in Him, and
that's the good news we want to share with you and rejoice
together as brothers and sisters and friends in Christ!
Despite some harsh words, or animosity, (and we all have our personalities, and strengths and weaknesses in communicating),
most of the so-called 'grace ppl', (and they don't all agree on things themselves, I, myself have seen JPrince maybe a handful of times, and I'm not in any camp except Jesus', I pray.....
and folks like Copeland, Dollar, Osteen, Hinn, errr, don't get me started)
anyway, the folks HERE, (I'm not saying TV ppl, idk), mostly are motivated by a desire to see ppl saved and set free and Jesus to get the glory, I believe, and they have plenty of posts to prove it.
But I would like to hear from those who are so often IN OPPOSITION with dan, grace7, JGIG, ladylynn, who else, Ben, e_g, oh, there's so many, forgive me, but, What is the motivation behind YOUR message, as it seems so different then theirs.
And God bless you all, and I mean that,
and sorry for the long post, but I really hope
it gets read and replied to. There's GOT to
be a way to come together in reconciliation.
Thanks.
I have been asking for quotes since the Holy ghost thread that gives an invalid link but still shows up on the net and never got one, and still have all the quotes from that thread when I was asked and I provided the answers and they were rejected
These are how the conversations go
I made a marker here of the whole back and forth
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135172-filled-holy-spirit-63.html#post2597281
More specifically telling I keep acknowledging this earlier on post 1199 here (upload that from my docs for keeping)
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135172-filled-holy-spirit-60.html#post2597147
These were removed from the site, keep copy
These are how the conversations go
I made a marker here of the whole back and forth
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135172-filled-holy-spirit-63.html#post2597281
More specifically telling I keep acknowledging this earlier on post 1199 here (upload that from my docs for keeping)
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135172-filled-holy-spirit-60.html#post2597147
These were removed from the site, keep copy
E
B1Davanda
long post...didn't want to repost the entire thing
that sums it up for me
the focus is turned inward with these negative doctrines that undermine the work of Christ on our behalf
as I like to say, if you are counting on Jesus + your works for salvation, you are putting yourself back under law as Paul went to great lengths to explain in Romans and the rather often neglected Galatians letter to folks who did exactly that
There are 2 main problems that I think I have picked up on here...well make it three
1. personal attacks, twisting what is said and mocking others....one person in particular at fault here
2. scripture used as a fiery dart...that is not what scripture is for
3. total lack of respect for other believers in Christ
no need to name names...we are all literate and can read the posts and who wrote them for ourselves
long post...didn't want to repost the entire thing
that sums it up for me
the focus is turned inward with these negative doctrines that undermine the work of Christ on our behalf
as I like to say, if you are counting on Jesus + your works for salvation, you are putting yourself back under law as Paul went to great lengths to explain in Romans and the rather often neglected Galatians letter to folks who did exactly that
There are 2 main problems that I think I have picked up on here...well make it three
1. personal attacks, twisting what is said and mocking others....one person in particular at fault here
2. scripture used as a fiery dart...that is not what scripture is for
3. total lack of respect for other believers in Christ
no need to name names...we are all literate and can read the posts and who wrote them for ourselves
we each and every one of us desire UNITY with those who believe and Love our Heavenly Father...
our desire for His Holy Love and approval is what we are seeking...
and so, we should all have and feel the common ground in our journey...
we should be able at some point in our walk to recognize our brothers and sisters in Christ
and love them unconditionally, no matter where they happen to be in their journey...
LOVE and TOLERANCE is KEY, the very ROOT of Christ's Love personified...
our desire for His Holy Love and approval is what we are seeking...
and so, we should all have and feel the common ground in our journey...
we should be able at some point in our walk to recognize our brothers and sisters in Christ
and love them unconditionally, no matter where they happen to be in their journey...
LOVE and TOLERANCE is KEY, the very ROOT of Christ's Love personified...
Same here
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633016
Post #384 of D1avanda cut for length
Here Post 388
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633035
Here Post 392
Here Post 734
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-37.html#post2608727
Here Post 810
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-41.html#post2609063
Here Post 853
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609222
Here Post 857 (with banned member Brainfreeze)
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609251
Here post 101
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605282
Here post 103
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605302
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633016
Post #384 of D1avanda cut for length
Here Post 388
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633035
Here Post 392
Here Post 734
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-37.html#post2608727
Here Post 810
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-41.html#post2609063
Here Post 853
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609222
Here Post 857 (with banned member Brainfreeze)
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609251
Look at what got this started, this was after the Holy Ghost thread was concealed (which I saved) showing what they do to people and I got tired of providing endless answers which they found no fault and being pursued and Im the jerk, because I added "good luck" to providing my quotes that were provided me
Here post 101
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605282
Here post 103
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605302
And I figured they wanted to see tears and there was a post I posted a child crying and I added "Im baptizing my face" and whoa! Two things GOOD LUCK and THAT, but everything here gets bypassed
I can show it on both clips of hidden threads and tablet, following things around, as I am actually studying this very thing,
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633016
Post #384 of D1avanda cut for length
Here Post 388
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633035
Here Post 392
Here Post 734
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-37.html#post2608727
Here Post 810
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-41.html#post2609063
Here Post 853
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609222
Here Post 857 (with banned member Brainfreeze)
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609251
Here post 101
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605282
Here post 103
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605302
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633016
Post #384 of D1avanda cut for length
Here Post 388
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633035
Here Post 392
Here Post 734
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-37.html#post2608727
Here Post 810
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-41.html#post2609063
Here Post 853
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609222
Here Post 857 (with banned member Brainfreeze)
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-last-argument-obedience-43.html#post2609251
Look at what got this started, this was after the Holy Ghost thread was concealed (which I saved) showing what they do to people and I got tired of providing endless answers which they found no fault and being pursued and Im the jerk, because I added "good luck" to providing my quotes that were provided me
Here post 101
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605282
Here post 103
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/135555-john-baptizes-jesus-6.html#post2605302
And I figured they wanted to see tears and there was a post I posted a child crying and I added "Im baptizing my face" and whoa! Two things GOOD LUCK and THAT, but everything here gets bypassed
I can show it on both clips of hidden threads and tablet, following things around, as I am actually studying this very thing,
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Titus 2
God's Grace Brings Salvation
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Shalom
God's Grace Brings Salvation
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Shalom
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