the beloved physician Luke quotes Jesus as saying, "The Spirit of the Lord (kurious) is upon me".
in your view, why does Luke do that instead of using "yhwh"?
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the beloved physician Luke quotes Jesus as saying, "The Spirit of the Lord (kurious) is upon me".
in your view, why does Luke do that instead of using "yhwh"?
Deut 16
Three times in a year all of your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which he chooses
I don't know of any lawkeeping christians who do this.
I suggest a fifth option,
use torah for instruction in wisdom, but not required for obedience.
ok, and I mean this as politely as possible... I've spent lots of time thinking about this. why would you think I hadn't?
and also with you!
This is hilarious. Hyper-law devotees using the same graphic memes that hyper-grace devotees use. Dueling banjos.
Hi there!
I'm getting to know you quite well, Grace777x70!
I mean...your response contains what I ALREADY PREDICTED (just 37 minutes prior...see post#153).
I'm getting to know you quite well indeed!...I'm already predicting what you're going to do before you do it...
I predicted you could give us another link to JGIG's website (and you did)...and I predicted you would not answer the 24 objections I already raised against that position (and indeed, you did not answer the objections). Sigh...
Now, here's the link that refutes the JGIG viewpoint (which Grace777x70 urges us to accept, but which he won't address):
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-7.html#post2638974
Please...let's ADDRESS my objections and learn from them.
Adapt your position to account for my objections, or modify your position, or refute the basis for my objections...anything but more propaganda....please?!
But to maintain your position, while refusing to even answer the objections...well...it not only appears to be in violation of 1 Pe. 3:15, but it's also not very friendly...and it makes it look like you're not really interested in truth...but I want to think better of you...so please...let's communicate...not "propaganda"-cate....
sigh...
BibleGuy
Yes...we pray for health and strength, comfort and encouragement...
I was unaware of this situation....
Of course we must be gracious and grant JGIG the time required to do what's best...
BibleGuy
Yes everybody! Do not get caught up with this mess about actually Obeying the Father by keeping He's commandments and living righteous and holy lives. You see Jesus Christ have now given you a free license to sin so you can now use him as often as you like as an excuse to live your life in hypocrisy as much as you like after your own personal book of the law. Feel free to cherry pick what ever scripture you like and just keep on repeating Jesus takes my place, we don't have to obey that cursed law of bondage which forces you to live holy and righteous lives, I am not responsible for my actions! Jesus came to do away with all that and free me from having to keep the Fathers commandments. I am now free in the spirit to do what ever I like and there is no more evil law of bondage that can judge me any more when I keep on breaking it. I can finally live the life I have always wanted and I will do what ever I personally think is right at any moment because there are no longer any established righteous commandments. Its all about love now, you are free to love yourself as you see fit. On the day of judgment when all are to be judged I am gonna use Jesus as my excuse for living the way I want to and for all my sinful ways I never repented from but God is going to judge all the other people for their sins, BUT NOT ME because I get a free pass and am no longer responsible for my actions. Jesus takes my place for my sins and all the other sinners can go to hell! He kept the law so I don't have to! I deserve all this because I have mental assent that Jesus is going to take my place for my sinful life of transgression because I have mental assent belief that he will.
Warning: Sarcasm intended.
Ouch....sometimes that's the way we need to speak....blunt but to the point.
BibleGuy
I dont mean to be mean spirited but this is the truth:
Proverbs 28:9 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Psalms 119:142 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
John 14:6 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Proverbs 27:5 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Open rebuke is better than secret love.
John 6:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Acts 16:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. ( they were not told to keep 613 laws from Moses )
No law put on these people in Christ.
Acts 15:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." ( not by law keeping )
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe . ( NOT from keeping 613 laws )
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
We are to keep God's commandments now in the New Covenant which is to believe in Jesus and to love. ( NOT keep 613 laws )
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Acts 16:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. ( they were not told to keep 613 laws from Moses )
No law put on these people in Christ.
Acts 15:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." ( not by law keeping )
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe . ( NOT from keeping 613 laws )
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
We are to keep God's commandments now in the New Covenant which is to believe in Jesus and to love. ( NOT keep 613 laws )
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
We are now the temple of the living God. We keep the feasts of God where where we are at. When Jesus Christ comes back we will keep the feasts in the promised land with him again but until then we keep them to the best of our ability where we are.
Ezekiel 11:16 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come. 17Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. 19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 21But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
1 Corinthians 3:16 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 5:8 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Acts 20:6 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
Acts 20:16 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
1 Corinthians 11:1 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Leviticus 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.42Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: 43That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. 44And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.
Zachariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
I'm posting scriptures for the viewers so that the Holy Spirit can show them the truth about not committing spiritual adultery on the Lord Jesus by going back to the law. ( Romans 7:1-6 )
Paul said to avoid disputes about the Law so I have no interest in engaging in useless debates. I'll trust the Holy spirit to do His job and reveal the things of Jesus to us! He is faithful to us.
Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24
The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
The law is not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.
1 Timothy 1:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
[SUP]9[/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross. Satan uses the law against us.
Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law. BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us. When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed".
If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. How great is our salvation in Him!
Paul said to avoid disputes about the Law so I have no interest in engaging in useless debates. I'll trust the Holy spirit to do His job and reveal the things of Jesus to us! He is faithful to us.
Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24
The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
The law is not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.
1 Timothy 1:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
[SUP]9[/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross. Satan uses the law against us.
Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law. BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us. When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed".
If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. How great is our salvation in Him!
Hey there HeRoseFromTheDead!
Thanks for encouraging us to have ears to hear...
I appreciate that.
But what does it mean to have "ears to hear"? Did Jesus just make up that concept? Of course not!
Let's check the Scriptures and see!
Those with “ears to hear” (Jer. 25:4) do not fail to obey YHVH’s words (Jer. 25:8). The Torah is the word of YHVH (Dt. 1:3; 5:27-33; etc.), and the prophets routinely confirmed that the Torah should be obeyed. So, those with “ears to hear” obey the Torah.
Therefore, YES! Let us have ears to hear...and thus, let us OBEY YHVH who commands Torah-obedience, just as His Son likewise commands us.
Now, you wrote: "...the Levitical priesthood all passed away..."
My response: Then you stand in OPPOSITION to the prophets who GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical sacrificial/ceremonial activity.
Moses GUARANTEES restoration of ALL Torah (which includes Levitical Torah)...see Dt. 30:1-8
Ezekiel GUARANTEES restoration of Levitical ceremonial/sacrificial activity (Eze. 40-47).
Jeremiah GUARANTEES restoration of Levitical Torah in conjunction with the forthcoming fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33:17-21).
Isaiah GUARANTEES restoration of Levitical Torah (Is. 66:21-23).
Zechariah GUARANTEES restoration of Levitical Torah (Zec. 14:16-21).
The Messiah comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices so as to be pleasing to YHVH as it was in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).
Why do you oppose the very thing the Messiah comes to RESTORE?
Yikes!
It's clear you do NOT have ears to hear the prophets...nor YHVH's words. But I trust you can/will change.
Jesus said the prophets are NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17)...and they are also NOT all fulfilled either.
Indeed, the prophets are a foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20), yet you oppose this foundation?
Why do you oppose the prophets?
blessings...
BibleGuy
PS We can answer your other questions too...but let's try just this "Levitical Torah" issue right now...
Your reasoning is self-contradictory. Scripture says that the Levitical priesthood would endure forever, but it ceased to exist in 70 AD. So trying to make something of its restoration is really meaningless because for any prophecies about the Levitical priesthood to be true, this would also have to be true. So obviously GOD was referring to the handing off of the Levitical priesthood to the Melchizedek priesthood, which endures forever, thus fulfilling prophecy. This change of priesthood happened at Jesus' baptism.
Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, [even] the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel. Numbers 25:11-13
It looks to me like the truth you are being led to believe is not of the same Spirit as Christ in the gospel and Paul in the letters. You continue to quote the same scriptures over and over again out of context that have clearly been shown to be taken out of context. If the purpose of the law is to manifest what is sin in our lives and Jesus came to save us from living in our sins then how can you say we are not to obey the commandments. The gospel is all about repentance, like for example if you practice homosexuality(Lev 20:13) you need to repent of that and walk in the newness of life and sin no more(John 8:11).
Hi Dan_473...
Oh....ok....let's use your definition for now, then.
Should we have strict adherence to the law (at least to the best extent possible in this present diaspora)?
I say "Yes", because that's what Scripture requires!
But we obey in faith by the Spirit's enablement (rather than by human effort to obey the letter without faith or the Spirit).
And, I also view your conception of "legalism" as unscriptural, because it carries the idea of "the letter rather than the spirit", which is (of course) not good.
We can obey in faith, as the Spirit writes the Torah upon our hearts.
That's not "legalism"....that just loving and faithful and Spirit-enabled obedience to Torah, just as the Scriptures require.
Furthermore, we must ask: Was the "don't kindle a fire" command given because it would have been viewed as a significant form of work (from which we should be resting on Sabbath)?
If so, then effortless fire-kindling on Sabbath would be lawful.
And absent evidence that this is not so, we appear unable to set forth the general requirement that Torah-observers must never kindle fires on Sabbath.
Furthermore, Torah has a hierarchical structure to it...and sometimes higher priority Torah-grounded considerations override lower priority Torah-grounded considerations.
For example, helping a neighbor whose ox fell in a ditch on Sabbath is more important than the general requirement to rest from regular work on Sabbath.
The loving pursuit to save life (say, as an ambulance driver or hospital worker) overrides the general requirement to rest from work on Sabbath.
In in a war on Sabbath, must we sit around and let our enemies kill us? Of course not...
Is Torah thus abolished?
No!
These are all Torah-consistent considerations.
Just recognize Torah can have a hierarchical structure to it...as the Torah-obedient Torah-teaching Messiah (Jesus) confirmed.
blessings...
BibleGuy
in my view, the topic is the relationship between the old covenant and the new.
yhwh is the name God uses in the old covenant, it's not there in the new.
do you believe my prayer is an abomination?
in your view, did Jesus make changes to the law?
we can't take an offering to a son of aaron. but we can go to Jerusalem.
BibleGuy said he wanted to seek maximal Torah-obedience. do you seek that also?
to me, that means keeping the parts of the law that we can.
the commmandment is simple, Three times a year all of your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which he chooses.