What does it mean to "abide" in Christ? (John 15:1-8)

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Scriptureplz

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#61
#61
mailmandan said:
1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
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1 John 4:13 is an abiding in spirit. We are joined in spirit which is permanent (1 Cor. 6:17). John 15 is about our mortal walk with Him. It is conditional upon our continuing with Him as Jesus was talking to disciples. Did they need to be saved? What was the reason for giving this instruction if it was inevitable because they were believers?

This was instruction to continue following Him and His Words as He was about to leave them. It is also instruction for us as well. If we follow Him we will be able to bear fruit. This is not automatic in a believers life according to this passage.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#62
Scriptureplz said:
1 John 4:13 is an abiding in spirit. We are joined in spirit which is permanent (1 Cor. 6:17). John 15 is about our mortal walk with Him. It is conditional upon our continuing with Him as Jesus was talking to disciples. Did they need to be saved? What was the reason for giving this instruction if it was inevitable because they were believers?

This was instruction to continue following Him and His Words as He was about to leave them. It is also instruction for us as well. If we follow Him we will be able to bear fruit. This is not automatic in a believers life according to this passage.
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1 John 4:13 says abide in Him. In context, we see that if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us (vs. 12). Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God (vs. 15). God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in Him (vs. 16).

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stopped bearing fruit. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - (the body of Christ? - 1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the spiritually dead self-attached branches are cut off. Judas Iscariot was not a genuine believer, but instead, was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11) which explains why Judas did not abide and was cut off.
 
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Scriptureplz

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#63
#63
mailmandan said:
1 John 4:13 says abide in Him. In context, we see that if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us (vs. 12). Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God (vs. 15). God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in Him (vs. 16).

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stopped bearing fruit. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - (the body of Christ? - 1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the spiritually dead self-attached branches are cut off. Judas Iscariot was not a genuine believer, but instead, was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11) which explains why Judas did not abide and was cut off.
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So I guess you understand the "branches" as all of humanity? I don't see it that way, though I did at one time. I think it's verse 6 that confuses us on this passage and makes us think these are unbelievers, but I think in the passage all branches are believers. No unbeliever can be connected to the vine (Christ). Lets look at verse 6....

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Could this "fire" be the "refining fire" of the Spirit? Can it be the same fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:15?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

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Then there is the aspect that Christ did die for al of humanity and just as all people were in Adam and thus inherited sin. Jesus took the sins of the whole world away but they still have to receive it. I tend to think that it is very possible that the branches are all humanity. All of the earth belongs to God. He is the original owner of the lost coin.

Romans 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Romans 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

On the other hand I can also see where one could John 15:6 to mean that not abiding in the life that is inside a believer will result in destruction in this life as that is so true. ( It doesn't say that they go to hell here either )

This could one of these gray areas where this scripture below can come in handy.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#65
Scriptureplz said:
So I guess you understand the "branches" as all of humanity? I don't see it that way, though I did at one time. I think it's verse 6 that confuses us on this passage and makes us think these are unbelievers, but I think in the passage all branches are believers. No unbeliever can be connected to the vine (Christ). Lets look at verse 6....

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Could this "fire" be the "refining fire" of the Spirit? Can it be the same fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:15?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
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If Jesus had wanted to teach that there were true and false believers associated with Him, and if He wanted to use the analogy of a vine and branches, then the only way He could refer to people who do not have genuine life in themselves would be to speak of branches that bear no fruit (somewhat after the analogy of the seeds that fell on rocky ground and had no root in themselves and produced no fruit Mark 4:17). Here in John 15 the branches that do not bear fruit, though they are in some way connected to Jesus and give an outward appearance of being genuine branches, nonetheless give indication of their true state by the fact they bear no fruit.

This is similarly indicated by the fact that the person "does not abide" in Christ (John 15:6) and is cast off as a branch and withers. If we try to press the analogy any further, by saying, for example, that all branches on a vine really are alive or they would not be there in the first place, then we are simply trying to press the imagery beyond what it is able to teach--and in that case there would be nothing in the analogy that could represent false believers in any case. The point of the imagery is simply that those who bear fruit thereby give evidence that they are abiding in Christ; those who do not, are not abiding in Him.
 
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Scriptureplz

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#66
#66
mailmandan said:
If Jesus had wanted to teach that there were true and false believers associated with Him, and if He wanted to use the analogy of a vine and branches, then the only way He could refer to people who do not have genuine life in themselves would be to speak of branches that bear no fruit (somewhat after the analogy of the seeds that fell on rocky ground and had no root in themselves and produced no fruit Mark 4:17). Here in John 15 the branches that do not bear fruit, though they are in some way connected to Jesus and give an outward appearance of being genuine branches, nonetheless give indication of their true state by the fact they bear no fruit.

This is similarly indicated by the fact that the person "does not abide" in Christ (John 15:6) and is cast off as a branch and withers. If we try to press the analogy any further, by saying, for example, that all branches on a vine really are alive or they would not be there in the first place, then we are simply trying to press the imagery beyond what it is able to teach--and in that case there would be nothing in the analogy that could represent false believers in any case. The point of the imagery is simply that those who bear fruit thereby give evidence that they are abiding in Christ; those who do not, are not abiding in Him.
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I do not understand the passage as Jesus teaching there were "true and false believers", but that of "how to bear fruit of the Spirit." If you can show me the context being that of true and false believers I will study further reconsidering my understanding. Is there something earlier in other chapters or later chapters that make you understand it this way?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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Again, in John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stop bearing fruit.

To be a dead branch self-attached to the vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not abide in Christ. Though Judas was externally attached to the vine, he did not abide in Christ because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11).

Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are cut off.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
 
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Scriptureplz

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#68
#68
mailmandan said:
Again, in John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stop bearing fruit.

To be a dead branch self-attached to the vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not abide in Christ. Though Judas was externally attached to the vine, he did not abide in Christ because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11).

Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are cut off.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
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Jesus speaks about bearing no fruit, bearing fruit, and bearing much fruit. He explains to His disciples in verse 3 that they are "already clean" so as to let them know there is nothing further to do as far as their salvation.

He explains "a branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine" (vs 4).

He tells them "he that abideth in Me, and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: without Me ye can do nothing (vs5)." He told the disciples this because Jesus knew they could do nothing without they were abiding (continuing) in Him , but He had just told them in verse 3 they were "already clean."

Like I said I once understood it the same way you are explaining, I just believe that is wrong now, and I really believe if you consider it the way I have explained it will make more sense to you. But if it doesn't maybe it will one day for one of us. But scripture to me is kind of like looking at one of those images that you stare at for awhile until you see the image in the image, and once you have seen it one way, then been shown the other way, it's hard to change back to what you thought you saw before.
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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#69
Abiding in Christ is abiding in The Way=the way God told us walk according to Jesus' words....abiding in the Truth= abiding in the Truth according to His words, which are Truth, and by the Spirit of Truth abiding in us. And also by abiding in the Life= abiding in His righteousness which is also manifested in us to bring forth good fruit, which leads to Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So can you abide in sin and also abide in Christ at the same time? Here's the answer------>>>>>http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/113972-abide-christ-sin.html

Proverbs 11:19
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Proverbs 21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

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There is another way of looking at these depending on what your focus is. Jesus came to bring us life and His righteousness.

We will never be more righteous then we are now in our new creation in Christ - in our inner man in Christ where we are one in union with Him - created in righteousness and holiness.

Do we want to focus on Christ who is Life and righteousness to us ?...or death and sin?

Proverbs 11:19
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Proverbs 21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness
 
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ember

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#71
#71
we should really focus on the op which is not about sin...we have had so many threads about people's idea that if you sin you loose salvation

I would really not like to see this thread get sidetracked with condemnation and judgement

maybe inspiritintruth could just start another thread or keep on with the one he already has regarding his desire to speak about sin and damnation 24/7?
 
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Scriptureplz

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#72
#72
InSpiritInTruth said:
Abiding in Christ is abiding in The Way=the way God told us walk according to Jesus' words....abiding in the Truth= abiding in the Truth according to His words, which are Truth, and by the Spirit of Truth abiding in us. And also by abiding in the Life= abiding in His righteousness which is also manifested in us to bring forth good fruit, which leads to Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So can you abide in sin and also abide in Christ at the same time? Here's the answer------>>>>>http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/113972-abide-christ-sin.html

Proverbs 11:19
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Proverbs 21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
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The Spirit is life because of His righteousness.

Let me ask you something, are you depending on your own righteousness through your ability to reform your life, or do you want to receive His righteousness through faith as the bible says you must? We have to be as perfect as He is, and that is only by faith. Please read this passage carefully.....

[h=1]Romans 10:1-5 (KJV)[/h] 10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
 
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Scriptureplz

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#73
#73
ember said:
we should really focus on the op which is not about sin...we have had so many threads about people's idea that if you sin you loose salvation

I would really not like to see this thread get sidetracked with condemnation and judgement

maybe inspiritintruth could just start another thread or keep on with the one he already has regarding his desire to speak about sin and damnation 24/7?
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Thanks, I really do want to keep the discussion on track. Maybe God wanted 'inspiritintruth" to read Romans 10:1-5. :)
 
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ember

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#74
#74
Scriptureplz said:
Thanks, I really do want to keep the discussion on track. Maybe God wanted 'inspiritintruth" to read Romans 10:1-5. :)
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folks need to learn to respect the op

some here have an agenda and unfurl it at the slightest hint they might be able to derail LOL!
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#75
#75
"A sinful soul possesses no inherent power to live righteously. There are no natural virtues. All graciousness of character, wherever found, is the outgrowth of life which He imparts.

Claiming to be the Power from which all righteousness proceeds, Christ declares to sinful men, "Apart from me," that is separated from me, "ye can do nothing." His words are to be taken in the most absolute sense. Apart from Him, the living Vine, no one possesses a particle of fruit-bearing power. Apart from Him no one can produce, in any measure, the fruits of righteousness. Every holy life is a branch in the True Vine, and is fed from His out-flowing sap. He is the power in man that incites to righteousness, the power that makes for righteousness, the power that makes righteousness. Humanity is as dependent upon Him for spiritual life, as the branch is dependent upon the tree, the tree upon the soil, the river upon the fountain, the animal upon the air, the planet upon the sun.

The best that man can possibly produce by himself is an outward, mechanical righteousness a righteousness worthless as "filthy rags;" but a vital, spiritual righteousness a righteousness acceptable to God, is possible to him only as his spirit is penetrated and pervaded by the Spirit of Christ.

Those who become partakers of His Spirit become "partakers of His holiness." They are inspired to seek after, and empowered to attain, that ideal righteousness embodied in His life. From the inflow of His love into their hearts results the outflow of His righteousness in their lives. Yielding themselves up to the holy impulses which come from Him, "moving them on to noble ends, "they are "made the righteousness of God in Him."

The blissful effect of the realization by the believer of the indwelling Christ as the inward law and power of righteousness is thus stated by St. Paul, "If Christ is in you, the body is dead, because of sin; but the spirit is life, because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)

Of His presence as of His righteousness there shall be no end. The righteousness which He has brought in for us, and which He is working out in us, is an "everlasting righteousness."


James M. Campbell, The Indwelling Christ
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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Jan 7, 2015
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#76
Scriptureplz said:
Let me ask you something, are you depending on your own righteousness through your ability to reform your life
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I have never suggested as much, but it is constantly implied and falsely suggested that I do by those who hate me. Read my post again---->>>>>>>
Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth
Abiding in Christ is abiding in The Way=the way God told us walk according to Jesus' words....abiding in the Truth= abiding in the Truth according to His words, which are Truth, and by the Spirit of Truth abiding in us. And also by abiding in the Life= abiding in His righteousness which is also manifested in us to bring forth good fruit, which leads to Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So can you abide in sin and also abide in Christ at the same time? Here's the answer------>>>>>Abide in Christ, or in sin

Proverbs 11:19
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Proverbs 21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Click to expand...
I enlarged it so perhaps you might see. :)
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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#77
ember said:
we should really focus on the op which is not about sin...we have had so many threads about people's idea that if you sin you loose salvation

I would really not like to see this thread get sidetracked with condemnation and judgement

maybe inspiritintruth could just start another thread or keep on with the one he already has regarding his desire to speak about sin and damnation 24/7?
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The thread is about abiding in Christ, abiding in sin is the opposite of abiding in Christ. So my post is in line with the OP. But I forgot people would rather speak evil of God's law than actually speak out against sin. Any mention of sin causes people to foam at the mouth in these forums and attack the poster. LOL

John 16:7-8 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
 
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ember

Guest
#78
#78
The best that man can possibly produce by himself is an outward, mechanical righteousness a righteousness worthless as "filthy rags;" but a vital, spiritual righteousness a righteousness acceptable to God, is possible to him only as his spirit is penetrated and pervaded by the Spirit of Christ.

Those who become partakers of His Spirit become "partakers of His holiness." They are inspired to seek after, and empowered to attain, that ideal righteousness embodied in His life. From the inflow of His love into their hearts results the outflow of His righteousness in their lives. Yielding themselves up to the holy impulses which come from Him, "moving them on to noble ends, "they are "made the righteousness of God in Him."
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Exactly SAVED BY GRACE

I find that without really understanding GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, one can cross over into works and still maintain they are righteous when they are actually trying vainly to achieve it in their own flesh

Judgement and condemnatory remarks are the hallmark of those who claim righteousness and see others as sinful.

We need to lay that attitude down and submit all judgement to Jesus. We need to come OUT OF AGREEMENT with every UNHOLY spirit of judgement

We are not pulling weeds for Christ...we have enough hoeing to do in our own garden
 
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ember

Guest
#79
#79
InSpiritInTruth said:
The thread is about abiding in Christ, abiding in sin is the opposite of abiding in Christ. So my post is in line with the OP. But I forgot people would rather speak evil of God's law than actually speak out against sin. Any mention of sin causes people to foam at the mouth in these forums and attack the poster. LOL

John 16:7-8 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
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I'm not sure what kind of juice you soak in there...but it is not the Holy Spirit

I don't accept your judgement and condemnation...you go ahead and wear that...you wear it so well

I think you are a kind of lost person who has found some very slight favor in these forums with others of your particular mind set

you are truly just a very silly man who sounds angry most of the time and unhappy all of the time

I forgive you and bless you in Jesus name...I am forgiven and not under judgement

you are mistaken in your views and that is all most of us need to see and understand
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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Scriptureplz said:
Thanks, I really do want to keep the discussion on track. Maybe God wanted 'inspiritintruth" to read Romans 10:1-5. :)
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Maybe you should open your eyes and read what I actually wrote instead of trying to prop up a straw man argument. :) I enlarged it for ya in post #76... Enjoy :)
 
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