God LIED!

[Budman]

Okay, now that I have your attention....

One of the main things that is troublesome to my soul, are those who believe one must strive to live the "Christian life" in order to remain saved. They believe that if you sin too much after your conversion, you can lose your salvation. Or they believe you can "give" your salvation back to God and walk away. Or, they'll say, if you don't live and act in a Christian "manner" it proves you were never saved at all.

I wanted to point out, that if one can lose their salvation, based on their performance in any way, then that makes God a liar.

Jesus said that He gives us eternal life, and that we shall never perish, and that no one can snatch us out of His, or the Father's hand. (John 3:16, 10: 28-29)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will perish, and we will indeed be snatched out of the hands of Jesus and the Father.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit which is a pledge guaranteeing our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then there is no guarantee of our inheritance and the seal of the Holy Spirit is conditional.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus will never leave us or forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus has left and forsaken us.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus always lives to make intercession for us. (Hebrews 7:25)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will not always make intercession for us - only while we remain saved.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we are sealed for the Day of Redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

If we can lose our salvation, then we are not sealed until the Day of Redemption, but only up until we are lost again.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that He will lose none of us, but will raise us up on the last day. (John 6:39)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will, in fact, lose some of us, and will not raise us up on the last day.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that believers will never come into judgment, and have passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will go back under judgment, and pass from life back into death.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our calling is irrevocable. (Roman 11:29)

If we can lose our salvation, then our calling is indeed revocable.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says salvation is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then salvation is not a gift, but a wage to be earned.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says nothing in all creation (that includes us as created beings) can separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39)

If we can lose our salvation, then something can indeed separate us from the love of God.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will complete the good work that He began in us. (Philippians 1:6)

If we can lose our salvation, then God's good work will not be completed.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we have been perfected for all time. (Hebrews 10:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we certainly are not perfected for all time.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our inheritance is imperishable, can never spoil, and is unfading, guarded by God's power. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

If we can lose our salvation, then our inheritance will perish, will spoil, and will fade.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says if we drink from the living water that is Christ, we will never be thirsty again. (John 4:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will indeed be thirsty again.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 1:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will not be sustained until the day of the Lord.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that our debt to God has been canceled through Christ Jesus. (Colossians 2:13-14)

If we can lose our salvation, our debt has not truly been canceled.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that those who are His will never hunger nor thirst again. (John 6:35)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will again hunger and thirst.

Verdict: God LIED.



So, what is your verdict? Did God lie to us when He made all of those promises, or is our salvation indeed eternal and irrevocable?

 

[Sirk]

Any relationship based on fear is no relationship at all.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Any relationship based on fear is no relationship at all.

Depends on the kind of fear.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen budman!..either we believe in what Jesus did for us or we don't. If we don't believe in what He already has done for us in His perfect completed work - we are in essence denying our Lord and Master and establishing our own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't believe that God lied when He said that perfect love casts out fear. Fear as in terror is not in the New Covenant. Fear as in awe and reverence is.

If we think that God is going to "punish" his children - then we don't know God yet as we should.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

 

[crossnote]

My old line: The OP kept mentioning 'our salvation'...rather it is His Salvation as Salvation is from the LORD...that can't be lost...ours can.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't believe that God lied when He said that perfect love casts out fear. Fear as in terror is not in the New Covenant. Fear as in awe and reverence is.

If we think that God is going to "punish" his children - then we don't know God yet as we should.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Ahhh..I just found a nugget ..I looked up the Greek word for "punishment" in 1 John 4:18 above and the exact same word is used in this passage from the Lord when talking about when the sheep are being separated from the goats in Matthew 25.

This is also where Jesus said that believers did good works but didn't even know they were doing them.


Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[jb1616]

Hmm...... well i'm curious what you do with all those scriptures that contain phrases like,'endure to the end', 'remaining steadfast' and other similar phrases? Also, have you given any thought to the possibility of 'everlasting', 'eternal' may actually not begin for us until we die. Once we are dead it's set in stone, there are no more chances and everything from that point is everlasting and eternal one way or the other. just a thought.

 

[Grace777x70]

My old line: The OP kept mentioning 'our salvation'...rather it is His Salvation as Salvation is from the LORD...that can't be lost...ours can.

I understand what you are getting at as salvation is only in Jesus alone and in what He has already done for us. Nothing could be more truer!

Although Paul does call it "your salvation" too but it is all based on Jesus and nothing we can do to "maintain" it as it is all by grace through faith alone in Him.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[mpaper345]

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Being led of the Spirit,doing works of the Spirit.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Nobody can snatch us out of the Father's hands if we go by the truth of the Bible.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If someone is led of the Spirit,every time they engage in sin,they are not led of the Spirit,and under the law,until they repent of it,that would mean that a person has a choice whether to allow the Spirit to lead them,or not.

It is not a question to debate this,or debate that,for it only boils down to this,is being led of the Holy Spirit coming from God,where people do not have a choice in the matter,or does it come from us,and we make the choice whether to allow the Spirit to lead us,or not.

If it comes from God,then once saved,always saved is correct,and if it comes from God without our choice,after conversion,how can we sin if we desire after we have been saved,if we do not make the choice in the matter,for we would always be led of the Spirit,in which we would not fulfill the desires of the flesh.If it comes from God,with no choice on our own to deny the Spirit leading us,how do we have the capacity to sin if we desire.

If it comes from us,then once saved,always saved,cannot be correct,for someone can deny the Spirit leading them,in which they may end up lost because of that.

So the only question is,being led of the Spirit,does it come from God,and we have no choice to deny the Spirit leading us,or do we have a choice whether to allow the Spirit to lead us,or not.Can we be saved,and be led of the Spirit,but deny the Spirit leading us later on,and if not,why do people sin after conversion,if it does not come from them making the choice whether to be led of the Spirit,or not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hmm...... well i'm curious what you do with all those scriptures that contain phrases like,'endure to the end', 'remaining steadfast' and other similar phrases? Also, have you given any thought to the possibility of 'everlasting', 'eternal' may actually not begin for us until we die. Once we are dead it's set in stone, there are no more chances and everything from that point is everlasting and eternal one way or the other. just a thought.

Look at context.. Non of them refer to eternal salvation.

Eternal life is said to be ours now. Not in the future. So again, Look at context.

 

[John146]

Hmm...... well i'm curious what you do with all those scriptures that contain phrases like,'endure to the end', 'remaining steadfast' and other similar phrases? Also, have you given any thought to the possibility of 'everlasting', 'eternal' may actually not begin for us until we die. Once we are dead it's set in stone, there are no more chances and everything from that point is everlasting and eternal one way or the other. just a thought.

Rightly divide the word of truth. The body of Christ has never been commanded by Scripture to "endure to the end" to be saved. Not in Paul's writings to the body of Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Rightly divide the word of truth. The body of Christ has never been commanded by Scripture to "endure to the end" to be saved. Not in Paul's writings to the body of Christ.

^^^^^^^^
Some variant of mid-Acts dispensationalism.

 

[Grace777x70]

Look at context.. Non of them refer to eternal salvation.

Eternal life is said to be ours now. Not in the future. So again, Look at context.

Amen....I still don't think God "lied" to us. I think what can throw us off when reading scripture is that we don't know about the 2 salvations and this causes "mixture" in our understanding and doctrines.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

We can inherit now in this life things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and you end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either your Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or you are your own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith - the other is works-righteousness.

 

[John146]

^^^^^^^^
Some variant of mid-Acts dispensationalism.

Nope, after the death, burial and resurrection(the death of the testator) dispensationalism.

 

[A_Friend_In_Christ]

Are you saying its ok to sin all we want and not care who we hurt lor cause to stumle? How exactly does that work?

 

[crossnote]

Are you saying its ok to sin all we want and not care who we hurt lor cause to stumle? How exactly does that work?

Let's just say a truly saved Christian, being born again with a new nature which reflects God's nature...wouldn't want to sin all they want.

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: let us have undetstanding about this
:8) and for this let us have wisdom ... .
:read:
10. 14. The Lord hath cast down the thrones of proud princes, and set up the meek in their stead. 15. The Lord hath plucked up the roots of the proud nations, and planted the lowly in their place. 16. The Lord overthrew countries of the heathen, and destroyed them to the foundations of the earth. 17. He took some of them away, and destroyed them, and hath made their memorial to cease from the earth. 18. Pride was not made for men, nor furious anger for them that are born of a woman. 19. They that fear the Lord are a sure seed, and they that love him an honourable plant: they that regard not the law are a dishonourable seed; they that transgress the commandments are a deceivable seed. 20. Among brethren he that is chief is honorable; so are they that fear the Lord in his eyes. 21. The fear of the Lord goeth before the obtaining of authority: but roughness and pride is the losing thereof. 22. Whether he be rich, noble, or poor, their glory is the fear of the Lord. 23. It is not meet to despise the poor man that hath understanding; neither is it convenient to magnify a sinful man. 24. Great men, and judges, and potentates, shall be honoured; yet is there none of them greater than he that feareth the Lord. 25. Unto the servant that is wise shall they that are free do service: and he that hath knowledge will not grudge when he is reformed. 26. Be not overwise in doing thy business; and boast not thyself in the time of thy distress. 27. Better is he that laboureth, and aboundeth in all things, than he that boasteth himself, and wanteth bread. -

 

[garee]

Depends on the kind of fear.

I agree .Or we could say it depends on the kind of pleasure of whose will .Seeing the pleasure of doing the will of one not seen was given over to one seen ,the serpent. Adam and Eve feared the serpent more than God, not seen .

I like the way David defines God's loving fear that works in the believers heart. (If thou, LORD, shouldest "mark iniquities", O Lord, who shall stand?) Eight verses dripping with honey .Even the older guys get a chance at committing it to memory. .

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?But there is forgiveness with thee, "that thou mayest be feared".I wait for the LORD, "my soul doth wait", and in his word do I hope.My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquitiesPsa 130:1-8

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: as we continue to
:read:
6. 49. How then cannot men perceive that they be no gods, which can neither save themselves from war, nor from plague? 50. For seeing they be but of wood, and overlaid with silver and gold, it shall be known hereafter that they are false: 51. And it shall manifestly appear to all nations and kings that they are no gods, but the works of men's hands, and that there is no work of God in them. 52. Who then may not know that they are no gods? 53. For neither can they set up a king in the land, nor give rain unto men. 54. Neither can they judge their own cause, nor redress a wrong, being unable: for they are as crows between heaven and earth. 55. Whereupon when fire falleth upon the house of gods of wood, or laid over with gold or silver, their priests will flee away, and escape; but they themselves shall be burned asunder like beams. 56. Moreover they cannot withstand any king or enemies: how can it then be thought or said that they be gods? 57. Neither are those gods of wood, and laid over with silver or gold, able to escape either from thieves or robbers. 58. Whose gold, and silver, and garments wherewith they are clothed, they that are strong take, and go away withal: neither are they able to help themselves. 59. Therefore it is better to be a king that sheweth his power, or else a profitable vessel in an house, which the owner shall have use of, than such false gods; or to be a door in an house, to keep such things therein, than such false gods. or a pillar of wood in a a palace, than such false gods.