Eternal Security and free choice for the Christian?

[eternally-gratefull]

It takes time for me to really take this in and seeing the problem. In the middle of this is the lie a missed emphasis.
Sin is an action that destroys and denies the relationship between two people or between God and oneself.
It says the other does not matter or how they will react, just the action to meet some need within matters.

Can you name one place where I said that the other did not matter?

Why is it you always like to twist what everyone says.

Maybe instead of trying to find fault with someone, You could actually listen to what they are saying? Di=oes this scare you? I am asking sincerely and honestly with concern.

Now the conviction that we sin, we destroy others, we cut them out to the point of death, should grieve anyone, should cut them to the heart, should show them that selfishness can rise to the point it washes away all that we hold most dear. When you see that it truly flies in the face of idealism, or righteousness or all the pompous things we think about ourselves and comes with a cry to God, help us, deliver us, remake us.

So your saying the HS convicts us? Not only our own hearts? Thats what separates a born again child of God from a non believer, They can be convicted they have done wrong and hurt someone, Whereas a child of God not only has this, But has the conviction and chastening of the HS.

So why do you think a child of God would not be convicted or cut to the heart? and why would you think anyone would teach such a thing when scripture clearly teaches otherwise.

And He can through seeing love, having it touch us, embrace us in the core of our being and for us to know we are not alone, we are understood, washed and purified, at home in heaven, with our Lord through faith in cross and Him.

See how close you are? This is 100 % right..

Now you say this is just agreeing with God. You know nothing, an empty vessel, full of untold desires and inspirations, tossed and turned trying to get it right and failing but not knowing why.

If I agree with God, would I not know why? This makes no sense.. God told me why, I have repented, which means I have understood why I am so empty being tossed and turned..

The question is, DO I have faith in him to LET HIM do somethign about it.

At the foot of the cross I fall, because here love showed how much it cares for me, and what really matters.
What is shocking to me, you have a similar language to me, but a very different experience and a desire to tear down, attack, destroy another. This is the opposite of the message of love and the cross.

See, Here you go again, You are on defense mode, You think I am attacking you when I am not, which is why you can never hear anything I say,, You too busy tryin gto nit lick what I say.

Again, Does it scare you to open up and actually see what someone is saying? I am asking politely..

I am trying to expose a lie. You claim you fell at the cross. Yet you deny the power of the cross to save you completely. WHat good is the cross, if it can not do what it promised to do?

To say I am self-righteous is not to understand the cross at all or what it means to say, "I am a man undone."

To say salvation is not secure is to deny the power of the cross. Because it puts emphasis on self. and our power. and not the power of God.

If you relied on the power of God and the cross. You would step side by side with me and we would be used by God to enter the gates of hell and rescue his lost children waiting to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How big is the cross?

How big is the cross??[/quote]

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Ephesians 2:16
and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Colossians 1:20
and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The cross:

1. was powerful enough to remove all sin of the whole world.
2. was powerful enough to Put to death the enmity which seperated God and mankind
3. was powerful enough to reconcile mankind to himself
4. was powerful enough to make peace between God and man
5. Takes the charges which are against us and condemns us and removes them (nailed to the cross)

The cross is powerful. The question is, Will a person trust the cross. Or continue to trust self?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Infinite. God, the creator of the world became a man, to walk with His creation, to make friends, to share His heart, to give teaching and guidance, to let the immortal touch the sinful. What was His observation? Sinners knew their sin but were outcasts and did not know why they were in this mess or how to get out of it, but they were in a mess.

The self righteous thought they had obtained life, which in part they had, but denied the fundamental failure, they did not know God.

Now this God let these self righteous kill Him and He forgave them, because it was the beacon that said, they were as lost as the rest and did not know Gods heart.

Now this is our God, this is His open door, this is His morality and love, to do the impossible, to overcome sin and circumstance, and walk in victory.

He did not come to do all this to create double minded people who want the world its gifts, health, wealth, popularity, success and also gain heaven while doing and dwelling in sin, which destroys the very things they claim to have achieved.

But this is the lie of hyper-grace, and once tasted always safe theology. Either you are a sheep called home or not.
And you show who you listen to by your life.

1. He came to save us, If we are not saved, Nothing else matters, we are still in need of rescue and headed to hell no matter how righteous we THINK WE ARE.
2. The change of life, the change of attitude, the change of behaviors happen because we are saved. What good is it if God changes us, yet we still are headed to hell because we are charged as sinners?


I got a question, what part of Life had these pharisee or religious leaders who were self righteous leaders of the jews who cricified God have? They were DEAD! Whitewashed tombs, no life at all.

That what scares me, Yiu think they had SOME life? That is just wrong man,,

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

I believe it's a combination of these 2 choices below.

I believe that when a person becomes a Christian his free choice (will) unites with God's will, thus he cannont choose to deny Christ


I believe that a Christian has free choice, but because of understanding God's love and goodness, the Christian will not choose to deny Christ

If that person's will unites with God's will, as you said, how do you explain the times when they sin? It is not God's will for them to sin.

I try to do God's will, but I admit I fail sometimes- because I have a choice to make, and don't always make the right choice. If it's true that my will automatically unites with God's will when I became a Christian, that would mean I no longer have a choice and I would never sin again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If that person's will unites with God's will, as you said, how do you explain the times when they sin? It is not God's will for them to sin.

I try to do God's will, but I admit I fail sometimes- because I have a choice to make, and don't always make the right choice. If it's true that my will automatically unites with God's will when I became a Christian, that would mean I no longer have a choice and I would never sin again.

what happens when you sin? are you convicted of it? or do you feel nothing? DO you rin to god begging him to forgive you, Or do you run to your abba father knowing your forgiven, but begging for help to overcome that sin issue.

And if you understand he is your abba, why would you EVER of free will choice decide to leave that?

 

[PeterJens]

Can you name one place where I said that the other did not matter?

Why is it you always like to twist what everyone says.

EG I know you, though you say I do not.

All I have been talking about is when Jesus stands before you. What you are talking about is a theory, a legalist set of rules, and check lists. When a child enters the house with the mum and dad in, they just run in for a cuddle.

From your language it sounds like you do not know this in your life.
This is called emotional intelligence. Jesus is describing people who follow Him like this.
I am not interested in your repeating of your views, because I am talking about your heart.

But whatever I share, you have a barrier which it bounces off. You will find the same message from those who know Jesus and His heart. What testifies to me about your lack of this experience is simply your opposition to the simple words of Christ

"Our Father who is in heaven,
Glorious is your name,
May your kingdom come,
May you will be done here on earth as it reigns in heaven,
Give us today our daily bread,
Forgive us our sins and as we forgive those who sin against us,
Lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil one"

I forgive you for everything bad you have said against me, I just love Jesus and follow Him.
If you do not want to follow Him that is your choice, I just share His great blessing of me,

Amen and Hallelujah.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

I believe it's a combination of these 2 choices below.

I believe that when a person becomes a Christian his free choice (will) unites with God's will, thus he cannont choose to deny Christ


I believe that a Christian has free choice, but because of understanding God's love and goodness, the Christian will not choose to deny Christ

If that person's will unites with God's will, as you said, how do you explain the times when they sin? It is not God's will for them to sin.

I try to do God's will, but I admit I fail sometimes- because I have a choice to make, and don't always make the right choice. If it's true that my will automatically unites with God's will when I became a Christian, that would mean I no longer have a choice and I would never sin again.

When a Christian sins - they are just yielding themselves to follow after their flesh. The more we walk in the Spirit - the more we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to fulfill "it's" desire. We just need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ in us in the new creation.

My statement was based on the understanding of the new creation in Christ and in the renewing of the mind as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ in us and operating from this mindset.

 

[PeterJens]

Do hyper-legalists hide as hyper-grace followers?

A legalist defines their value by conforming to a set of rules. What matters to them in the letter of the law, and keeping safe.
But this group say the rules are far harder than the words say, and impossible to fulfill to any degree, even when the bible says people did succeed to live by the law. By making the law impossible, hyper-legalists justify their failure and call anyone who claims to follow Jesus in purity and righteousness a hypocrite and evil.

So they claim they believe in hyper-grace, forgiveness for all, but actually this only stands on the foundation of hyper-legalism, which they spend each day self condemning themselves, saying this shows them how wonderful the gift of grace is.

The reason this matters is because sin is no longer clearly defined or repented of, just ignored and the focus is on Christ or anything else that does not remind them of their failure. In modern pschological language they are dumping guilt and failure and applying success when there is none. They hate talking about the cross but the resurrection, and talk about victory in the imaginary realm, and not what is really going on in their lives. If you talk about making real progress, they call this self-effort and self-justification, rather than redemption and transformation empowered by Christ and His work on the cross.

In one fell swoop they have destroyed the power of the cross and let sin rot and remain unchecked in their congregations, inspired by greed and selfish ambition of success.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I know you, though you say I do not.

Thats funny, Most everything you say about me is false. For someone who says they know someone, You sure don;t act like it..

All I have been talking about is when Jesus stands before you. What you are talking about is a theory, a legalist set of rules, and check lists. When a child enters the house with the mum and dad in, they just run in for a cuddle.

From your language it sounds like you do not know this in your life.

Yet again, you prove you do not know me at all..

When Jesus stands before me, He is my abba father.. I do not have to fear him, Because HE ADOPTED ME, I did not adopt him.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”I


Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

This is called emotional intelligence. Jesus is describing people who follow Him like this.
I am not interested in your repeating of your views, because I am talking about your heart.

You do not know my heart. And you do not know my views. So you keep making the same mistakes.. Don;t you get tired of doing this over and over?

But whatever I share, you have a barrier which it bounces off.

Yep there is a barrier, It is that you do not know me at all. Do not know what I believe, My heart, You think you do. So you continue to say stuff which is not true, then can't understand why we can not communicate.

You will find the same message from those who know Jesus and His heart. What testifies to me about your lack of this experience is simply your opposition to the simple words of Christ

"Our Father who is in heaven,
Glorious is your name,
May your kingdom come,
May you will be done here on earth as it reigns in heaven,
Give us today our daily bread,
Forgive us our sins and as we forgive those who sin against us,
Lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil one"

I forgive you for everything bad you have said against me, I just love Jesus and follow Him.
If you do not want to follow Him that is your choice, I just share His great blessing of me,

Amen and Hallelujah.

If you are not going to humble yourself so you can find out what a person believes, and stop this trying to defend yourself at all costs notion of trying to discuss the word. Why even bother?

You do not understand the first thing about us, So stop trying to think you understand. You prove it every time you post. The only person you are fooling is yourself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In one fell swoop they have destroyed the power of the cross and let sin rot and remain unchecked in their congregations, inspired by greed and selfish ambition of success.

I have yet to see a church do this.

Yet I see all kinds of legalistic churches do this, They hold rules your right, But they deny it, and their version of rules do not stand up to Gods set of rules. So they go around thinking they are righteous and holy, while excusing sin after sin after sin, Just because they do not commit the sins they hold as evil.

they are no different than pharisees, They go out and praise God they do not sin, Yell at sinners like the grace teachers, While inside they are full of filth and they can;t even see it.

Gods rules are more than any mans rules. God says if you break even the smallest part of the law. Your guilty of the whole thing, WHat is the penalty? Death!

But no, Not for us (legalists) we go to church, We confess our sins, We repent every time we accidently sin, We do all these religious ceremonies, We give to the poor We do this and that and everything else.

So Gods law and condemnation can not apply to us, It applies to those sinful grace people who (even though they cry out to God because of there sin, which I as a legalist would never admit they do) are lost with no hope

 

[Budman]

The shed blood of Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal salvation. But, how the blood of Christ is applied has changed. In the Church Age the blood is applied immediately upon believing the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In OT times, the blood of Christ was applied to those that were in Abraham's bosom for their obedience to God's word whatever that would have been in their dispensation. The blood of Christ was applied obviously after His death.

The Bible says the Christ is the Lamb "slain before the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:18, 1 Peter 1:19-21)

As far as God is concerned, it was a done deal - all the way back in Genesis. (3:15)

The only difference between how OT age people were saved, and how NT age people are saved, is they looked forward in faith to the promised Messiah to come, and we look back in faith to the Messiah we came.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Do hyper-legalists hide as hyper-grace followers?

A legalist defines their value by conforming to a set of rules. What matters to them in the letter of the law, and keeping safe.
But this group say the rules are far harder than the words say, and impossible to fulfill to any degree, even when the bible says people did succeed to live by the law. By making the law impossible, hyper-legalists justify their failure and call anyone who claims to follow Jesus in purity and righteousness a hypocrite and evil.

So they claim they believe in hyper-grace, forgiveness for all, but actually this only stands on the foundation of hyper-legalism, which they spend each day self condemning themselves, saying this shows them how wonderful the gift of grace is.

The reason this matters is because sin is no longer clearly defined or repented of, just ignored and the focus is on Christ or anything else that does not remind them of their failure. In modern pschological language they are dumping guilt and failure and applying success when there is none. They hate talking about the cross but the resurrection, and talk about victory in the imaginary realm, and not what is really going on in their lives. If you talk about making real progress, they call this self-effort and self-justification, rather than redemption and transformation empowered by Christ and His work on the cross.

In one fell swoop they have destroyed the power of the cross and let sin rot and remain unchecked in their congregations, inspired by greed and selfish ambition of success.

This is really true. Their whole belief system is based on the belief that it is impossible for them to do the will of GOD. SO they need a mental coping mechanism to blot out any awareness/guilt of sin. Which basically is to just ignore sin in the belief that it doesn't matter because grace winks and looks the other way. IN essence, they believe that the obedience of Christ covers their living in sin.

They prove that they are yet under law, not grace, when they say that the law condemns them or any work that they do. Because the law does not, cannot, condemn anyone who is under grace because these are dead to the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is really true. Their whole belief system is based on the belief that it is impossible for them to do the will of GOD.

And this person calls himself a christian, Who is following the law. Then why is he lying? How can a person sit there, tell a bold faced lie (not even a little white lie) and say he is a follower of God?

No one, and I mean No one I have ever heard has said it is impossible to do Gods will.. This is outright false accusations and bearing false witness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In one fell swoop they have destroyed the power of the cross and let sin rot and remain unchecked in their congregations, inspired by greed and selfish ambition of success.

So true. This is how they view the cross. It's not viewed as the death and burial of the sinful man that puts an end to the law's condemnation, but it's viewed as a constant reminder of their inability to do righteousness because of their utter depravity. It promotes an ever increasing condemnation of the law that they have to hide from using their version of grace. So they essentially are admitting that they are not dead to the law. And if not dead to the law, then they are not under grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So true. This is how they view the cross. It's not viewed as the death and burial of the sinful man that puts an end to the law's condemnation, but it's viewed as a constant reminder of their inability to do righteousness because of their utter depravity. It promotes an ever increasing condemnation of the law that they have to hide from using their version of grace. So they essentially are admitting that they are not dead to the law. And if not dead to the law, then they are not under grace.

View attachment 152208

More false accusations. And again I ask, This guy calls himself a man of God?

all I can do is SMH..

 

[Budman]

False accusations are par for the course of those who hold to a man-centered salvation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

False accusations are par for the course of those who hold to a man-centered salvation.

Why don't you point out where the false accusation is?

 

[Budman]

Why don't you point out where the false accusation is?

EG has been pointing it out to you. Do you even read his posts?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

EG has been pointing it out to you. Do you even read his posts?

No, I don't. IMO he's a noise generator.

 

[Budman]

No, I don't. IMO he's a noise generator.

Well, that explains a lot.