Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[Katy-follower]

I make random notes on my phone throughout the day, as things come to my mind.

Here is a thought...

Dying without Jesus is unforgivable (you cannot be saved after you die, it's too late, so that's classed as unforgivable). As we know... there is only one unforgivable sin mentioned in the scriptures, so I believe this must be it.

If it were even possible to lose your salvation (which it is not) and say you were to twist that Hebrews scripture to suggest it supports losing your salvation, then that would suggest there there is another unforgivable sin, meaning there would be two unforgivable sins, which then goes against what the scriptures say.

Because if you truly believe that a believer can lose salvation - that they're doomed - then you're claiming it's unforgivable. The wrong interpretation of the Hebrews scriptures would suggest that believers lose salvation and can no longer be redeemed (unforgivable) but this is wrong.

As per my last post (#299) which is my followup post from several pages back), the example of an elementary principle (eternal security) is given, that one cannot be saved, unsaved and saved again... and it was worded in such a way that will be read differently by those who do not want to see it.

 

[Th0mas]

I make random notes on my phone throughout the day, as things come to my mind.

Here is a thought...

Dying without Jesus is unforgivable (you cannot be saved after you die, it's too late, so that's classed as unforgivable). As we know... there is only one unforgivable sin mentioned in the scriptures, so I believe this must be it.

If it were even possible to lose your salvation (which it is not) and say you were to twist that Hebrews scripture to suggest it supports losing your salvation, then that would suggest there there is another unforgivable sin, meaning there would be two unforgivable sins, which then goes against what the scriptures say.

Because if you truly believe that a believer can lose salvation - that they're doomed - then you're claiming it's unforgivable. The wrong interpretation of the Hebrews scriptures would suggest that believers lose salvation and can no longer be redeemed (unforgivable) but this is wrong.

As per my last post (#299) which is my followup post from several pages back), the example of an elementary principle (eternal security) is given, that one cannot be saved, unsaved and saved again... and it was worded in such a way that will be read differently by those who do not want to see it.

Years ago, I said the words which Jesus commanded to use to pray as part of my salvation. Do you judge I did right ? God wanted me to pray as Jesus commanded. I used words from Matthew 6 for the prayer.

 

[wattie]

Words for praying to receive Christ?

'Lord, have mercy upon me, a sinner!'

Luke_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

 

[wattie]

I'm not reviling you, did you say the exact words of Matthew 6 in which Jesus commanded to say to pray to show that you wanted God's salvation ? Or did you say different words to pray and disobeyed what Jesus commanded ?

Matthew 6: This prayer is for daily prayer to Jesus.. not prayer to receive Christ..

The kind of prayer you would do in quiet time with Jesus daily to learn from Him and have intimacy.

Unless you are praying out of conviction from the Holy Spirit as someone not saved and respond to the conviction with similar words to Matthew 6..which could happen.

 

[Th0mas]

Words for praying to receive Christ?

'Lord, have mercy upon me, a sinner!'

Luke_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Jesus didn't say the publican prayed correctly. Jesus taught how to pray correctly, Matthew 6. God is willing to teach people who don't know how to do/say what He wants.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When I see someone advocating holiness and righteousness, and then see others condemn that person for being legalistic, self-righteous, judgmental, condemning, prideful, etc., I sense that there are some unresolved issues spilling over from previous bondage to legalism and spiritual abuse that are manifesting themselves as rejection of all standards and authority. Or something like that...

for the umpteenth time (I know you are hard of hearing, or have selective remembrance?) No one is calling anyone who advocates doing Gods will as a legalist. We would be calling ourselves legalists.

We are calling people who advocate obedience is a PRE_REQUISITE for eternal life in heaven with our savior legalists.

So please. Your making yourself look bad, Every one knows this is the case, but you people seem to continue to make the same false claim.

 

[PeterJens]

Remember that Jesus reserved His harshest words for the mostly hidden sins of hypocrisy, pride, greed and legalism.

Who are these people who are accused of the above sin? People who walk in righteousness.

This is persecution for Christs name and walking after Him. Hallelujah.

Sinner hate the idea anyone could be righteous, loving, kind, patient, gentle, do good works etc.

Now buried among this is the word greed. It is odd for a group who espouse that God will give
them wealth multiplied based on the amount they donate to the preacher. That is just a lottery.

So here are confessed defeated sinners saying Christ does not give victory here and now.
Christ has not purified their hearts, they cannot walk blamelessly before God. If fact to even
believe such a thing in their language is to be anti-Christ.

Beware these wolves in sheeps clothing who rail against the Kingdom, and claim walking in the
kingdom is walking in sin. They heap abuse on those who take Jesus at His word and believe in
the power of the cross to transform their lives through the Holy Spirit.

Everything they accuse their enemies of doing is merely their own failures which they cannot
get over.

 

[PeterJens]

Pharisees


"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you." Matt 23:2
"they do not practice what they preach" Matt 23:2
"neglected —justice, mercy(forgiveness) and faithfulness." Matt 23:23
"full of greed and self-indulgence." Matt 23:25
"look beautiful on the outside ....inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness" Matt 23:27-28
"you appear to people as righteous" Matt 23:27-28

The HG group is odd. They claim to be righteous, right living yet continually sin.
They are full of greed and self-indulgence, they do not believe in following justice, mercy(forgiveness) and faithfulness while also condemning those who do.

So they are almost honest pharisees, dirty and lost, yet claiming this is the gospel of truth.
Weird.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is weird is a man claiming to be righteous, Yet continually sins by bearing false witness against others.

Sounds to me, the man who is calling the HG group pharisees, is more like a pharisee himself. They watered down the law and refuse to admit they sinned, That was why they rejected Christ telling them their goodness was not good enough.. Jesus taught grace and forgiveness, They taught obedience and rules.. Just like this guys does.

The HG group admits they are lost and dirty apart from Christ, This guy admits he is clean and righteous like the pharisee.

The HG group claims they call on God to show them mercy.

This guy, like the pharisee, Brags about how he is not like the sinner (the HG group)

so everyone should remember when they read what one person says, Read what everyone says and make sure the claims the person makes is factual, and not his made up claims..

It would be nice if we could just state our view of what the gospel is, or the bible says, And discuss these views, But some people want to tell you what others believe. So sadly we have to continue to have these battles until those people finally get the point, lets discuss the word. Not what we think others believe (which has been proven over and over, is not true to begin with)

 

[Th0mas]

Matthew 6: This prayer is for daily prayer to Jesus.. not prayer to receive Christ..

The kind of prayer you would do in quiet time with Jesus daily to learn from Him and have intimacy.

Unless you are praying out of conviction from the Holy Spirit as someone not saved and respond to the conviction with similar words to Matthew 6..which could happen.

God lead me to use the prayer of Matthew 6 as part of my salvation. You may agree some people have prayed thinking there is a need to show/tell God exactly what they want. God knows what we want and what some people want from God may not be what they need for salvation.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader, HG followers are not pharisees.

EG cannot read or understand the points being made, no surprise there.

I suggest you read Matt 23 closely. Jesus agrees with the point of view of pharisees as to the
law. He is criticising their failure to keep it, and only appear on the surface to.

Jesus's objective is to cleanse the heart and get us to walk in righteousness and purity.
It is this victory HG deny. You will never get them honestly to describe what is righteounsess
because they 24/7 are just into self condemnation and failure, OCD style.

It is why my watered down righteousness is a standard even they reject, because they have
no standards or goals. They have already arrived at perfection, they just need to walk in it,
but never have and never will. It is why their theology is just double-speak and an excuse to
keep on sinning, while claiming they are destined for heaven.

I keep on having to expose their slander and double speak, because though they are honest failures
Jesus was neither a failure or His gospel, but they bring both into the gutter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear reader, HG followers are not pharisees.

EG cannot read or understand the points being made, no surprise there.

Well unlike some people. If I am not too proud to say I made a mistake, if that is not what you meant forgive me then.

I suggest you read Matt 23 closely. Jesus agrees with the point of view of pharisees as to the
law. He is criticising their failure to keep it, and only appear on the surface to.

Jesus's objective is to cleanse the heart and get us to walk in righteousness and purity.
It is this victory HG deny. You will never get them honestly to describe what is righteounsess

Yet you refuse to stop trying to tell everyone what others believe. HG people do not deny victory, Grace believers preach victory in Christ.

Describe what is righteousness? What righteousness are you speaking of. Righteousness to salvation (justification), or righteosuness of sanctification. Those are two different aspects of righteousness)

because they 24/7 are just into self condemnation and failure, OCD style.

Wow, Again you prove you do not know people at all.. We do not think about failure, We praise God for salvation. Huge difference.

It is why my watered down righteousness is a standard even they reject, because they have
no standards or goals.

Yes we do. Because your standard is below Gods standard. (as far as justification goes)

They have already arrived at perfection, they just need to walk in it,
but never have and never will. It is why their theology is just double-speak and an excuse to
keep on sinning, while claiming they are destined for heaven.

back to the same argument, Back to the same lie. We excuse sin. Yet Peter excuses his own sin, He slanders and lies, Yet he claims he is not, or it is not sin.

So who should we believe. People who profess they sin, or people who profess they do not sin ( or when they do it is just an oopsie?)

I keep on having to expose their slander and double speak, because though they are honest failures
Jesus was neither a failure or His gospel, but they bring both into the gutter.

you have not exposed anything but your false ideaology of what others preach and believe.

Must we go here again? Can you please just stop tryin to tell others what they believe? Is this to hard for you?

 

[PeterJens]

When I see someone advocating holiness and righteousness, and then see others condemn that person for being legalistic, self-righteous, judgmental, condemning, prideful, etc., I sense that there are some unresolved issues spilling over from previous bondage to legalism and spiritual abuse that are manifesting themselves as rejection of all standards and authority. Or something like that...

Here is the truth. Jesus never attacked righteous people, he praised them.

When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
John 1:47

For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.
Matt 21:32

But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matt 6:33

Seeking righteousness is our calling. Those who preach against righteousness preach against Christ.

Christs attitude to righteousness is summarised as following

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matt 5:18

Righteousness matters, it is the foundation of the Kingdom of Heaven.

HG followers like EG would have you believe Jesus condemns righteous living rather
than as Paul tells Timothy,

Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
1 Tim 4:12

Now slanderer EG would have people believe I bear false witness, yet everything
I write is sourced. HG beliefs can be looked up and read freely, I have quoted
at length from them and their implications. So it is he who rather than answering
such points wishes to lie and slander me. But this always appears wise to the blind.

 

[PeterJens]

Yet you refuse to stop trying to tell everyone what others believe. HG people do not deny victory, Grace believers preach victory in Christ.

Double speak. Victory in Christ would be being able to walk without sinning, as Holy,
blameless, pure people. Christ in us makes this possible.

You do not believe this. And I am not saying imputed righteousness, or sinning but it is
not counted as sin, because it is already forgiven.

Now I would have more respect for these beleivers if they were honest about how and what
they actually believe. Constantly their preachers are condemning what they call legalists, as
evil blind hypocrites. And these people are just simple believers in Christ.

So their whole teaching is inbuilt with condemnation and hypocracy, excusing sin as something
they cannot but give in to, because it is their flesh and not them.

So these hypocrites want you to follow in their failure and sin, because they claim that is the
only honest way to follow Christ, because Christ cannot purify and cleanse the heart, so we
can know what holiness is, even though that is exactly what scripture says.

But then lying has never been difficult for them, because they wallow in their sin as a badge
of honour, saying we are just like the world and Jesus saved us, to stay put and wallow some
more.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Double speak. Victory in Christ would be being able to walk without sinning, as Holy,
blameless, pure people. Christ in us makes this possible.

ah so your sinless. i thought you denied this? Which is it?

 

[Grace777x70]

I make random notes on my phone throughout the day, as things come to my mind.

Here is a thought...

Dying without Jesus is unforgivable (you cannot be saved after you die, it's too late, so that's classed as unforgivable). As we know... there is only one unforgivable sin mentioned in the scriptures, so I believe this must be it.

If it were even possible to lose your salvation (which it is not) and say you were to twist that Hebrews scripture to suggest it supports losing your salvation, then that would suggest there there is another unforgivable sin, meaning there would be two unforgivable sins, which then goes against what the scriptures say.

Because if you truly believe that a believer can lose salvation - that they're doomed - then you're claiming it's unforgivable. The wrong interpretation of the Hebrews scriptures would suggest that believers lose salvation and can no longer be redeemed (unforgivable) but this is wrong.

As per my last post (#299) which is my followup post from several pages back), the example of an elementary principle (eternal security) is given, that one cannot be saved, unsaved and saved again... and it was worded in such a way that will be read differently by those who do not want to see it.

That is really the wisdom of the Lord. If Hebrews 6 means a believer can lose salvation for going to heaven to be with the Lord. Then now there are 2 unforgiveable sins which is contrary to what Jesus said.

I love how the Lord brings in wisdom and truth to tell His beloved ones that they are truly safe in Him. He loves to bring comfort and encouragement to His children. It's time to believe in all that Jesus has already done for us in His finished work so that we can walk in in "security" which bring true "maturity"!

 

[gb9]

Double speak. Victory in Christ would be being able to walk without sinning, as Holy,
blameless, pure people. Christ in us makes this possible.

You do not believe this. And I am not saying imputed righteousness, or sinning but it is
not counted as sin, because it is already forgiven.

Now I would have more respect for these beleivers if they were honest about how and what
they actually believe. Constantly their preachers are condemning what they call legalists, as
evil blind hypocrites. And these people are just simple believers in Christ.

So their whole teaching is inbuilt with condemnation and hypocracy, excusing sin as something
they cannot but give in to, because it is their flesh and not them.

So these hypocrites want you to follow in their failure and sin, because they claim that is the
only honest way to follow Christ, because Christ cannot purify and cleanse the heart, so we
can know what holiness is, even though that is exactly what scripture says.

But then lying has never been difficult for them, because they wallow in their sin as a badge
of honour, saying we are just like the world and Jesus saved us, to stay put and wallow some
more.

take note people, here is someone who pushes sinless perfectionism ( that is a lie, so there is one right there) and this person redefines Biblical definition of sin. this person told me yesterday that when James said knowing to do go and not doing so, this did not really mean what it clearly and simply means.

this is how they come up with this self-righteous garbage, be reducing and redefining what sin REALLY is.

 

[wattie]

Jesus didn't say the publican prayed correctly. Jesus taught how to pray correctly, Matthew 6. God is willing to teach people who don't know how to do/say what He wants.

Ah.... knowing you are a sinner and then responding out of conviction for God to have mercy on you..

is NOT salvation?

Added to this.. check out Romans 10:9-10, John 3:16 among a ton of other verses!

Look... I do agree that words in Matthew 6 could be receiving eternal life.. if it is out of conviction on the heart from the Holy Spirit on an unsaved person.

But the example in Matthew 6.. looks to me like a continues daily walk prayer.

 

[PeterJens]

A philosophy of life

Every emotional position of life has important points that make up the system of belief.
It is always centred around, we the group of believers are ok. You over there are evil
because of this list of failures.

This only can survive if the two groups are easily identified. So the teachers will clearly
define the ways you decide enemy and friend.

What I have noticed is this creates a hypocracy of thought.
A sinner is a sinner because he sins. But once saved the same behaviour is now
good.

Now the excuses will flow, and the denials, but in the end it is underpinned by
failure, and the point to try and put effort into victory is futile.

But this is because sin is about relationships and failure. Now if these people
knew Christ they would understand this, but because some obviously do not
the connection can never be made, as it only makes sense when you know
Christ.

It is simply a testimony against their spiritual foundations, they are happy to
live with hypocracy. They are so convinced of their hypocracy that their
powerful accusation is I am just as much a hypocrite as them so need to
repent of arrogance, pride, and self righteousness.

The problem for them is if I am actually righteous, walking in victory and being
blameless before the Lord. But then they would never know this, because
that is their spiritual reality. So I say this as a warning and testimony against
them, for out of this pit there is no escape.

 

[PeterJens]

take note people, here is someone who pushes sinless perfectionism ( that is a lie, so there is one right there) and this person redefines Biblical definition of sin. this person told me yesterday that when James said knowing to do go and not doing so, this did not really mean what it clearly and simply means.

this is how they come up with this self-righteous garbage, be reducing and redefining what sin REALLY is.

gb9 - You believe "doing good" is easy to understand.

Now I would have agreed with you once. But then I met people who said doing anything
outside of faith is evil or sin. Jesus said "good" means of God.

Now I could believe it is "good" to lay the table for dinner. Is it sin to not lay the table?
I could believe it is "good" to say hello to someone. Is it now sin to not say hello?

Good is a very subjective term, and can mean different things to different people.
Is it good to be less rude than the person was to you?

Now what I am saying is simple. Christ won victory, and He meant His people to walk
in righteousness and purity. Just think a little. Would Jesus say, thinking adulterous
thoughts, lusting after money, wealth, power, food is ok as long as you believe in me
and the fact I will forgive however you behave now and in the future and all your sins
of the past, though you have no intention of changing at all.

This is what they would have you believe.