Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[eternally-gratefull]

A father gives a child a car.

That child looks at the car, And says in faith, Yes Dad, I want that car.

As long as the car keep working, or continues to do what the hcild wants, That childs faith will remain.

If the care starts breaking down alot. or stops working, then the childs faith will discontinue,

He may leave it in a driveway, The car is still his

He may take it to a junk yard, The car is still his.

(I would use the fact he may sell it, but you can not seel salvation, so that would not work in this case)

In both cased, the vehicle is still his, he just no longer gets the benefit of the car. The blessings have stopped.

Now, here is the issue.

God does not fail, He continues working, The purpose for which you took salvation, never ceases and is always met. So there is no need to throw it away. If anything, the more the person has salvation, the more benefits the person see he or she recieves from it.

so sorry, This, (one can lose faith, he loses salvation) does not make sense to me.. It says God breaks down, Stops working,, or becomes ineffective.

It is not God who fails, it is we who fail. S in my view, people who lose faith lose it because faith is not centered around a perfect redeemer, but a fallen human.

 

[Chester]

of course not, It is by Grace,, You did nothing to earn it, Or lose it.





In this case, One must (work) to maintainnt faith. And it was not a faith in God to begin with..




If salvation can be lost,, it must be earned.

Thats my point.

Let's try this again. Here are four things I believe:

(1) I am saved by grace through faith
(2) I stay saved by grace through faith
(3) I can lose my salvation if I lose faith
(4) I do not believe in a works salvation

I understand that you think this is "crazy" and "unbiblical" and you would like to convince me that these four do not go together. And furthermore you do not think it is even possible to believe all four of these at one time. I am OK if you feel that way.

Can you accept me as a brother in Christ and accept that I do believe these four points?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's try this again. Here are four things I believe:

(1) I am saved by grace through faith
(2) I stay saved by grace through faith
(3) I can lose my salvation if I lose faith
(4) I do not believe in a works salvation

I understand that you think this is "crazy" and "unbiblical" and you would like to convince me that these four do not go together. And furthermore you do not think it is even possible to believe all four of these at one time. I am OK if you feel that way.

Can you accept me as a brother in Christ and accept that I do believe these four points?

I do not see how anyone saved by grace through faith in A god who would never ever fail them would ever lose faith. is my point.

I also believe a salvation can be lost must be earned..

I can not judge you anyway.. You probably are my brother. if you start talking repent of every sin, or any sin though, WATCH OUT lol JK

 

[Chester]

I do not see how anyone saved by grace through faith in A god who would never ever fail them would ever lose faith. is my point.

I also believe a salvation can be lost must be earned..

I can not judge you anyway.. You probably are my brother. if you start talking repent of every sin, or any sin though, WATCH OUT lol JK

Thanks for the post - I think we are understanding each other - though not agreeing . . .

I really do not see either how someone "who is saved by grace through faith in a God who never fails could/ would ever lose faith". Doesn't make sense, does it? (At least we agree on that!)

I guess the difference is I leave that possibility open - that someone could lose faith. You think the Bible clearly closes that possibility and I think it doesn't completely close that possibility.

We have argued (and I don't mind if we keep on arguing - nicely of course about this -

I am glad you say I am "probably" your brother! Maybe you are thinking I might have lost faith in God by now! (Oh, ouch, cut that sentence - I just like to throw humor in now and then

Now the repentance thing - ah - ah - later for that one . . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for the post - I think we are understanding each other - though not agreeing . . .

I really do not see either how someone "who is saved by grace through faith in a God who never fails could/ would ever lose faith". Doesn't make sense, does it? (At least we agree on that!)

I guess the difference is I leave that possibility open - that someone could lose faith. You think the Bible clearly closes that possibility and I think it doesn't completely close that possibility.

We have argued (and I don't mind if we keep on arguing - nicely of course about this -

I am glad you say I am "probably" your brother! Maybe you are thinking I might have lost faith in God by now! (Oh, ouch, cut that sentence - I just like to throw humor in now and then

Now the repentance thing - ah - ah - later for that one . . .

it is just my view, i do not think the bible says.. I just dont see how one can

i cant judge anyones salvation, i am not god.. thats why i said probably lol

thanks for a peaceful debate and disagree, they are rare lately!

 

[Cee]

How does a person lose their salvation?

 

[FreeNChrist]

How does a person lose their salvation?

Maybe it fell in between the cushions on the couch??

 

[Cee]

I guess, one might say by willfully saying I'm not going to follow you Jesus, but isn't every sin basically doing that? At least for a little bit, so at what point has He drawn the line of no return? Scripture says anytime we are not in faith is sin.

 

[valiant]

Let's try this again. Here are four things I believe:

(1) I am saved by grace through faith

I have been and are saved by grace through faith - it is God in His grace that saves, faith is the channel.

(2) I stay saved by grace through faith

.

because what God has begun He continues. But this is NOT what scripture actually says.

(3) I can lose my salvation if I lose faith

but it is NOT your salvation to lose, it is God's. and God does not make your faith a condition of it. It is provided by grace, God's unmerited favour,. You simply receive it through faith. If that were not so it would not be a free gift, it would be offered on the condition of your faith, and your faith would have become a work

(4) I do not believe in a works salvation

but you do, you require the work of 'faith'.

 

[Katy-follower]

Revelation 3:5 In the same way, the victor will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name before My Father and before His angels.

Doesnt this imply that some names which were written in the book of life that they won't be there anymore?

Look at what it's actually saying....

Rev 3:5: “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels”

Who are those people who overcome? They are believers. This scripture is saying that a believer will never be removed from the book of life. So once you are born of the Spirit you are eternally secure and will never be erased.

1 John 5:4-5: "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

 

[Katy-follower]

Look at what it's actually saying....

Rev 3:5: “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels”

Who are those people who overcome? They are believers. This scripture is saying that a believer will never be removed from the book of life. So once you are born of the Spirit you are eternally secure and will never be erased.

1 John 5:4-5: "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

Here is another scripture that relates to this subject….


Rev 22:18-19: “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”

The bible doesn't contradict itself. There are just too many scriptures that confirm eternal security. So Rev 22:19 can only be speaking of non believers. Not to mention, no believer would seek to alter the scriptures. There are religious systems out there that like to add additional requirements for salvation, so they add to the scriptures (also they have extra books, like the Catechism). In the same way they also take away when they teach that Christ's ONE perfect sacrifice is not sufficient to save us.

So based on my two posts it seems to show a book of life that has every living person's name in it, from the time of Adam and Eve. This would then suggest that the tares are the ones who are eventually removed, leaving just believers in the book. It would not make sense otherwise.

Now I think of the mentioning of tares being plucked up. Does anyone want to add to this with those scriptures?

 

[Polycarp]

OP assumes the belief that one has righteousness imputed on to them and that they can't lose salvation. Am I right?

 

[Th0mas]

When we take scripture out of it's context we can make it "appear" to say what we want.

I did not put parts of a Bible in my post with wrong explanations of them. For any reader who wants to learn more about this, the post is in this thread, page 9, post #168.

Proverbs 26:21


As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire, so is a quarrelsome person for kindling strife.

Let's look at 1 Cir 7:1. The Phil2:12-13 scriptures are just saying to work out what is already inside you and it is God that is giving us both the will and the ability to do it - 2 Cor 7 is talking about someone that was sorry for their actions.

It was "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death." you may notice below that it's in verse 10.


2 Corinthians 7:


9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.


About you saying "it is God that is giving us both the will and the ability to do it" I may only do/say and people may judge if I'm lead by The Holy Spirit to work to do/say God's will or not. You may agree there have been some people who have judged what a person has said and have not judged how they would want something they said to be rightly judged.

I love

John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word.

John 13:


13 "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.
14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.
15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.

The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.

Psalms 12:6

And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.

John 17:17

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

John 17:20

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,Proverbs 25:11

Like apples of gold in settings of silver is a ruling rightly given.

Zechariah 9:3

Tyre has built herself a stronghold; she has heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets.

Revelation 3:

14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

Revelation 3:

17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us.

1 Corinthians 4:8

Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign--and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!
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2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"In context" - let's view 2 Cor.7:1

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

1 Corinthians 5:

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

From that above the word "drunkard" you may compare with what is below.

Part of 1 Corinthians 11:21

and one is hungry, and another is drunken.[SUB][SUP]
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Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.

Ephesians 4:

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.[SUB][SUP]
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When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of the glory of the Lord as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are. We are transformed outwardly as we manifest His life in and through us.

Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

Matthew 25:36

I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Matthew 25:38

When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
Matthew 25:40

"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

Romans 13:14

Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
Colossians 3:12

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

1 Corinthians 15:53

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Matthew 6:

30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you--you of little faith?
31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God. ( Fear of God to me is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness ).

2 Timothy 2:


19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use.
21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

You may need to compare what is below and then you may answer my question.



Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

Matthew 25:34

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Matthew 6:10

your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Years ago, I said the words which Jesus commanded to use to pray as part of my salvation. Do you judge I did right ? God wanted me to pray as Jesus commanded. I used words from Matthew 6 for the prayer.

 

[Th0mas]

My post in this thread, post #533, has not been posted in the way I set it up.

 

[Angela_grace]

I must say some of these opinions have swayed my view but as I'm searching there's verses that keep coming to mind that make me continue believing what I do. A scripture that has come to mind is the parable of the virgins and also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. There were brides who weren't ready. A servant who didn't obey his master. What happened to the servant? What he had got taken away from him. And he was thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

 

[Polycarp]

I must say some of these opinions have swayed my view but as I'm searching there's verses that keep coming to mind that make me continue believing what I do. A scripture that has come to mind is the parable of the virgins and also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. There were brides who weren't ready. A servant who didn't obey his master. What happened to the servant? What he had got taken away from him. And he was thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

That's because people can throw away their gift of salvation and there is no guarenteed assurance that people will be saved until the end.

 

[Grace777x70]

I did not put parts of a Bible in my post with wrong explanations of them. For any reader who wants to learn more about this, the post is in this thread, page 9, post #168.

(snip)

your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Years ago, I said the words which Jesus commanded to use to pray as part of my salvation. Do you judge I did right ? God wanted me to pray as Jesus commanded. I used words from Matthew 6 for the prayer.

I was referring to taking a scripture out of it's context by itself,...nothing to do with wrong explanations of them. We need to read all scripture with the other scriptures around it which is why 2 Cor 7:1 starts with a "therefore"..when we see a "therefore" we need to go see what the "therefore" is" there for".

You said that years ago you used parts of Matt 6 to pray as part of your salvation. I don't understand what you mean by "Do you judge you did right?...but I will attempt to answer what I think you are asking. I believe any response to God to cry out for Him through our Lord Jesus Christ is going to have the Holy Spirit rush to bring life and create a new spirit in you...that you have become a new creation in Him - created in righteousness and holiness.

I have heard many people got saved by just saying "Jesus, help me. I believe you died for me". The way you get saved is always individual but it's always the same gate and door - Jesus only.

If you say you got saved praying something in matt 6 - then I say "Praise God" Jesus is Lord and good and has many good things for you both in this life and in the one to come. Bless you...walk on in the Lord - trusting in Him fully for everything. His grace is sufficient for you in all situations. All is well.

 

[Grace777x70]

I must say some of these opinions have swayed my view but as I'm searching there's verses that keep coming to mind that make me continue believing what I do. A scripture that has come to mind is the parable of the virgins and also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. There were brides who weren't ready. A servant who didn't obey his master. What happened to the servant? What he had got taken away from him. And he was thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Hi Angela,

It's late here where I am so I'll leave you with this article that is grace-based and talks about the talents.

Some of those parables are actually describing the difference between those in Israel that reject their Messiah's grace and those that don't and are not talking about individual believers that are already secured in Christ. They are contrasts - everyone is invited and actually included in Christ's work. He died for the world and took away the sin of the world - but people need to believe and receive it.


I like to use this site because it tackles obscure scriptures. Never let an obscure scripture rob you of the very clear abundance of scriptures that talk about our security in Christ. At the bottom of the article people can ask questions and I often find I learn a lot from those as well.

The Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30)

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/05/19/parable-of-the-talents-matthew-25/

 

[Th0mas]

I was referring to taking a scripture out of it's context by itself,...nothing to do with wrong explanations of them. We need to read all scripture with the other scriptures around it which is why 2 Cor 7:1 starts with a "therefore"..when we see a "therefore" we need to go see what the "therefore" is" there for".

There's no wrong in posting a part of a Bible to add to some discussions and not explain it completely sometimes. I didn't post the part of a bible wrongly and I posted other parts with it which revealed more about the part of a Bible I posted.

You said that years ago you used parts of Matt 6 to pray as part of your salvation. I don't understand what you mean by "Do you judge you did right?

I said "Years ago, I said the words which Jesus commanded to use to pray as part of my salvation. Do you judge I did right ? God wanted me to pray as Jesus commanded. I used words from Matthew 6 for the prayer.

Which words may you think Jesus commanded to say to pray ?

...but I will attempt to answer what I think you are asking. I believe any response to God to cry out for Him through our Lord Jesus Christ is going to have the Holy Spirit rush to bring life and create a new spirit in you...that you have become a new creation in Him - created in righteousness and holiness.

John 12:50

And I know that his command brings eternal life. What I say, then, is what the Father has told me to say."

I have heard many people got saved by just saying "Jesus, help me. I believe you died for me". The way you get saved is always individual but it's always the same gate and door - Jesus only.

You may compare what you said to what you may look at below.

Matthew 7:24

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

If a person has the opportunity to pray how Jesus wants them to pray, Matthew 6, but they choose not to say that prayer as part of their salvation, they would be foolish to say Jesus is Lord, and I believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead, I will be saved.

Luke 6:46

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

If you say you got saved praying something in matt 6 - then I say "Praise God" Jesus is Lord and good and has many good things for you both in this life and in the one to come. Bless you...walk on in the Lord - trusting in Him fully for everything. His grace is sufficient for you in all situations. All is well.

2 Timothy 3:

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Compared to:

You may look below and you may notice that part of verse 9 is "This, then, is how you should pray:" You may notice that I have changed the order to help.

Matthew 6:

7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us today our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

Matthew 6:

5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

[Polycarp]

I must say some of these opinions have swayed my view but as I'm searching there's verses that keep coming to mind that make me continue believing what I do. A scripture that has come to mind is the parable of the virgins and also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. There were brides who weren't ready. A servant who didn't obey his master. What happened to the servant? What he had got taken away from him. And he was thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Angela, if you could trust the Catholic Church to be guarded by the Holy Spirit when putting together the Bible, don't you feel that they would be able to interpret that same book truthfully?

I'm a protestant evangelical investigating the claims of the Catholic Church; So far, they've provided the best interpretation for me on obscure passages that are hard to understand. I think deep in your heart, the Lord is speaking to you and you are not satisfied with the protestant interpretations that all seem to not agree about what the parable is about.

If you'd like a catholic commentary from a reputable catholic study bible, I'll be more than glad to post the notes for you if you are interested.