Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[BenFTW]

And you have "grace believers" accusing us who also believe and embrace God's grace and finished work as well as what God requires of us as born again believers.... as being of another faith, another gospel, and children of the devil. We are called Legalists and Pharisees when there is nothing legalistic or Pharisaical about standing in the word of God. Some recent comments are evidence of that, and I'm surprised they are allowed to stand.

So I repeat your question as to how can correction be done in meekness even begin? Many posts I have seen so far have been done in meekness only to have people respond with comments like "Their condemnation is just" or "they're filled with hate." Some comments from both sides have been inflammatory as well and I fully accept that. However, many have been thrown to the wayside which have been done in meek, courteous discourse and instead of discussion.

The problem in this discussion is that part on "what God requires of us." Far too often that requirement is tied up into our justification which is by grace through faith in Christ. That requirement isn't so much a requirement as it is a result of having been made a new creation. It is who you are.

People will argue over a Christian who entertains sin and uses grace as a license to sin, and the problem with this line of thought is that by the very definition of what makes a born-again Christian this person is either a babe in Christ or not of the faith. Something they should self-examine of themselves, granted but one of which we can lead gently upon the right path.

You see, sanctification is where people differ. Sanctification, however, doesn't save us. The moment you overcome a particular sin in your life is not the moment you finally became saved. VVould you agree? You see, people tie sanctification into justification making it unified but that is not the case. Justification leads to sanctification in that of us receiving Christ (and being justified before God) and then us being born-again to a life of righteousness that God works in us through His processes of sanctification. Yet, the fruit of what we do, the work is emphasized to such a degree that the line between justification and sanctification is blurred into a works-based gospel.

So, people may agree on justification (yet still disagree on how justified/OSAS) but where people truly disagree is sanctification and its necessity. It is essential but not for salvation based upon the premise of the thief on the cross and any deathbed confession. VVhile we will be sanctified, sanctification is a fruit of having received salvation and we must be careful to not put the cart before the horse.

 

[valiant]

Now imagine this, my heart just rejoices in Christ my Saviour and the cross, victory over sin,
and fellowship in love with my fellow believers. This is possible, and at the age I am now,
I am likely to see the Lord very soon, Hallelujah.

I wouldn't count on it. You are relatively young. I would say forty years to go unless the Lord comes first.

 

[Chester]

The problem in this discussion is that part on "what God requires of us." Far too often that requirement is tied up into our justification which is by grace through faith in Christ. That requirement isn't so much a requirement as it is a result of having been made a new creation. It is who you are.

People will argue over a Christian who entertains sin and uses grace as a license to sin, and the problem with this line of thought is that by the very definition of what makes a born-again Christian this person is either a babe in Christ or not of the faith. Something they should self-examine of themselves, granted but one of which we can lead gently upon the right path.

You see, sanctification is where people differ. Sanctification, however, doesn't save us. The moment you overcome a particular sin in your life is not the moment you finally became saved. VVould you agree? You see, people tie sanctification into justification making it unified but that is not the case. Justification leads to sanctification in that of us receiving Christ (and being justified before God) and then us being born-again to a life of righteousness that God works in us through His processes of sanctification. Yet, the fruit of what we do, the work is emphasized to such a degree that the line between justification and sanctification is blurred into a works-based gospel.

So, people may agree on justification (yet still disagree on how justified/OSAS) but where people truly disagree is sanctification and its necessity. It is essential but not for salvation based upon the premise of the thief on the cross and any deathbed confession. VVhile we will be sanctified, sanctification is a fruit of having received salvation and we must be careful to not put the cart before the horse.

Some good points, and I respect your approach and attitude. I think you are trying to get both sides to see that we agree on justification, but that our disagreement on sanctification is not a "salvation" issue.

But I think that my understanding is not just so simple as to say that sanctification is not "essential for salvation" or that it is a "fruit of having received salvation". If a person begins with a OSAS and hyper-grace perspective, in which the initial act of justification is all determinative - that is - it seals final destiny - then of course sanctification is not essential and is a "fruit".


I might use the same language and say sanctification is a fruit of salvation, but I mean something different. When I am born again and changed at my spirit level (crucified and buried and risen again with Christ) then I receive the Holy Spirit. I have indeed been saved, but this is only the very beginning of the race. As God continues to pour his grace into my life, and as I continue to respond in faith, and as this faith allows God to produce good works in my life, sanctification is in process. It is not just the initial moment that the Holy Spirit enters my heart that saves me, but that fact that He abides in me, this is what assures my salvation at this moment in time. So when I say that sanctification is "essential" to salvation, I don't mean works save me, but I do mean that my salvation is not based only upon the initial act of justification, but upon the ongoing grace of Jesus Christ in my life.\
Now - I think I just described "hyper-grace" - but not what is usually meant by "hyper-grace" on this site!

 

[FreeNChrist]

And you have "grace believers" accusing us who also believe and embrace God's grace and finished work as well as what God requires of us as born again believers.... as being of another faith, another gospel, and children of the devil. We are called Legalists and Pharisees when there is nothing legalistic or Pharisaical about standing in the word of God. Some recent comments are evidence of that, and I'm surprised they are allowed to stand.

So I repeat your question as to how can correction be done in meekness even begin? Many posts I have seen so far have been done in meekness only to have people respond with comments like "Their condemnation is just" or "they're filled with hate." Some comments from both sides have been inflammatory as well and I fully accept that. However, many have been thrown to the wayside which have been done in meek, courteous discourse and instead of discussion.

You deliberately mischaracterize what others believe about grace and then you want to play the victim card?? It's God who says of those who do what you are doing that your condemnation is just. And you should heed it well.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Some good points, and I respect your approach and attitude. I think you are trying to get both sides to see that we agree on justification, but that our disagreement on sanctification is not a "salvation" issue.

But I think that my understanding is not just so simple as to say that sanctification is not "essential for salvation" or that it is a "fruit of having received salvation". If a person begins with a OSAS and hyper-grace perspective, in which the initial act of justification is all determinative - that is - it seals final destiny - then of course sanctification is not essential and is a "fruit".


I might use the same language and say sanctification is a fruit of salvation, but I mean something different. When I am born again and changed at my spirit level (crucified and buried and risen again with Christ) then I receive the Holy Spirit. I have indeed been saved, but this is only the very beginning of the race. As God continues to pour his grace into my life, and as I continue to respond in faith, and as this faith allows God to produce good works in my life, sanctification is in process. It is not just the initial moment that the Holy Spirit enters my heart that saves me, but that fact that He abides in me, this is what assures my salvation at this moment in time. So when I say that sanctification is "essential" to salvation, I don't mean works save me, but I do mean that my salvation is not based only upon the initial act of justification, but upon the ongoing grace of Jesus Christ in my life.

The denial of the Christian's eternal security in Christ precludes you from ever understanding God's grace. That's just the way it is.

 

[Magenta]

I wouldn't count on it. You are relatively young. I would say forty years to go unless the Lord comes first.

96 years is a very long time to live!

 

[valiant]

96 years is a very long time to live!

by the time you get there it will be normal. unless I am lucky I will make 90. who wants that in my condition?

 

[UnderGrace]

The denial of the Christian's eternal security in Christ precludes you from ever understanding God's grace. That's just the way it is.

Well this does explain a lot about different people I have met along the way. So so true and rather sad indeed! My experience tells me this is true however is there a specific scripture to reference?
Thank you!!!

 

[valiant]

Some good points, and I respect your approach and attitude. I think you are trying to get both sides to see that we agree on justification, but that our disagreement on sanctification is not a "salvation" issue.

But I think that my understanding is not just so simple as to say that sanctification is not "essential for salvation" or that it is a "fruit of having received salvation". If a person begins with a OSAS and hyper-grace perspective, in which the initial act of justification is all determinative - that is - it seals final destiny - then of course sanctification is not essential and is a "fruit".


I might use the same language and say sanctification is a fruit of salvation, but I mean something different. When I am born again and changed at my spirit level (crucified and buried and risen again with Christ) then I receive the Holy Spirit. I have indeed been saved, but this is only the very beginning of the race. As God continues to pour his grace into my life, and as I continue to respond in faith, and as this faith allows God to produce good works in my life, sanctification is in process. It is not just the initial moment that the Holy Spirit enters my heart that saves me, but that fact that He abides in me, this is what assures my salvation at this moment in time. So when I say that sanctification is "essential" to salvation, I don't mean works save me, but I do mean that my salvation is not based only upon the initial act of justification, but upon the ongoing grace of Jesus Christ in my life.\
Now - I think I just described "hyper-grace" - but not what is usually meant by "hyper-grace" on this site!

but if God has declared you righteous because of the righteousness of Christ, how can He then declare you unrighteous? He would be going back on the standing He has given you.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Well this does explain a lot about different people I have met along the way. So so true and rather sad indeed! My experience tells me this is true however is there a specific scripture to reference?
Thank you!!!

I cannot think of 'one' verse that would do it for ya. The denial of our eternal security necessarily leads to life lived as a self-salvation project. Jesus started it, but now it's up to us to finish it. As if we have anything we could add to, or take away from, what Jesus has already done. It is nothing more than the pride of man that cannot accept the grace of God that saves us gratis.

 

[UnderGrace]

I cannot think of 'one' verse that would do it for ya. The denial of our eternal security necessarily leads to life lived as a self-salvation project. Jesus started it, but now it's up to us to finish it. As if we have anything we could add to, or take away from, what Jesus has already done. It is nothing more than the pride of man that cannot accept the grace of God that saves us gratis.

I understand, makes good sense, ultimately denying the very truth of the Gospel. So so hard to make these people see, it really grieves me.
Thanks!

 

[Magenta]

by the time you get there it will be normal. unless I am lucky I will make 90. who wants that in my condition?

So many die at all ages before they even make 60... and the number of times I escaped the jaws of death, I am not even sure I could count. Drug overdoses. Smoke inhalation. Furnace malfunction during the night, leaving me to breath in all the "puffback" soot while I was sleeping. Falling asleep with car exhaust pipe stuck in snow bank. Alcohol poisoning. Those are a few I remember. I am lucky not to have had a heart attack or stroke or been mangled beyond repair in an auto accident, or died of cancer or any number of other diseases that people fall prey to, some of which I currently have or have had. I don't know what condition you are in that leaves you not wanting to make it to ninety. That's only eight more years... but I do know that life is hard, and then you die, and Jesus is our only hope of a better life.

 

[Grace777x70]

I understand, makes good sense, ultimately denying the very truth of the Gospel. So so hard to make these people see, it really grieves me.
Thanks!

I agree with you and yet I can see where others could get that people lose their salvation when reading certain verses.

I too thought that way until I saw the true gospel of the grace of Christ - the thing that cemented in for me was the "gift of righteousness" which is not my righteousness apart from Christ - but it is His and I am joined in one spirit to Him - sealed with the Holy Spirit which Jesus said "He shall be with you and in you forever."

I truly believe that a lot of this happens by the "lens" we use when we view scriptures and when we see an obscure scripture that seems to violate the very clear scriptures of the free gift of Christ and the necessary requirement is to believe on Jesus for salvation and then the new birth happens - then that scripture can throw us off from the clear abundant scriptures - if we are not established in Christ's completed salvation for us to begin with.

Usually the scripture is not taken "in context" or it's a parable that the real meaning can be hidden and unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to us - we will come up with a man-made reasoning based on our religious upbringing and prior beliefs.

All of these things add to the mis-understandings concerning the so-called hyper grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Personally I do not mind the term "hyper-grace" because God's grace is very hyper and abundantly available to all men - but I also realize that it has been used as a derogatory term to malign those that believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ.

There may be people that do mis-use God's grace to sin all they want but I have never heard a grace teacher ever say that and in fact come against sin as being destructive, deceptive and it will affect us , those we love it will distort our view of our loving Father and Lord - just like it did to Adam and Eve when they hid from God. God was still coming to be with them - He knew what they had done.

 

[Grace777x70]

So many die at all ages before they even make 60... and the number of times I escaped the jaws of death, I am not even sure I could count. Drug overdoses. Smoke inhalation. Furnace malfunction during the night, leaving me to breath in all the "puffback" soot while I was sleeping. Falling asleep with car exhaust pipe stuck in snow bank. Alcohol poisoning. Those are a few I remember. I am lucky not to have had a heart attack or stroke or been mangled beyond repair in an auto accident, or died of cancer or any number of other diseases that people fall prey to, some of which I currently have or have had. I don't know what condition you are in that leaves you not wanting to make it to ninety. That's only eight more years... but I do know that life is hard, and then you die, and Jesus is our only hope of a better life.

I agree with you. I have seen some people die from doing the smallest things in comparisons to what others have done and yet - they are still here. I suppose we will never understand how the mercy of God works in these situations until we get to heaven and then He tells us all the things we have no idea about. We try to figure out God with our man-made reasonings and we only see through a galss darkly and only know "in part".

 

[God4me]

but if God has declared you righteous because of the righteousness of Christ, how can He then declare you unrighteous? He would be going back on the standing He has given you.

God declared us rightous, but we declare ourselves unrighteous when we sin , until we repent, see 1 Jn 1: 9.

God has declared us, healed, victorious a d abundantly blessed with abundant life, but not every Christian walks in divine health , victory or the abundance of God, all the time.
What people forget or don't know is , there is a God part, and our part.

 

[DP]

As far as forgiveness from God being conditional after the cross...here are 2 links below that speaks to all of that as I don't want to de-rail this thread, so you can go and read that post.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139224-truth-words-paul-4.html#post2716935

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139224-truth-words-paul-4.html#post2716952

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139224-truth-words-paul-4.html#post2716972

I only need default to 1 John 1 in response.

 

[DP]

but if God has declared you righteous because of the righteousness of Christ, how can He then declare you unrighteous? He would be going back on the standing He has given you.

Depends on our walk... after our sins 'past' that were remitted on Christ's cross. That is exactly what Apostle Paul is teaching in Galatians 5. And in 1 John 1, John is teaching what our Lord put in place to cover future sins when we mess up our walk with Him by The Holy Spirit. We are to repent to Him, asking forgiveness.

 

[Willie-T]

I love it.

Jesus died to free us from the penalty of the law.... but if you sin after becoming a Christian, you are right back under the law... just as though He had never come to Earth, and it is up to you to again bring yet another sacrifice of woeful repentance to the alter to be forgiven what Jesus' death already forgave you for. ....... and then do it all over again next week... and the day after that... and three days later, and forever. Gotta keep yourself forgiven.

Same ol' system the Jews had.

 

[Grace777x70]

I only need default to 1 John 1 in response.

I love 1 John 1.....I will default to this post that breaks it all down. It'll bless you and you will be in awe of the great salvation we have in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clink on this link:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137655-condemnation-root-cause-7.html#post2668300

 

[Grace777x70]

Forgiveness is a done deal for those who have received Christ. Now that is "hyper" and yet so many want to water down the Lord's work to make it their work instead.

Forgiveness is a done deal bought for by the blood of our Lord. Despite what our religious upbringing has taught us. This is what scripture has to say about forgiveness but men's made up terms to support their religious views.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

Perfect Tense

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous state and that was put on them....not something they did


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Here are some more scriptures on the forgiveness of God thru the precious blood of our Lord!....


Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff ( call it hyper of you want ) shows up again!...it's all according to our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14[/SUP] in whomwe have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work!