Reproving the world of sin

[InSpiritInTruth]

this sentence:

Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the sinners of this world.

should read:

Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the unbelievers of this world.

Apologies for any confusion.

So if the Holy Spirit is only meant to reprove "unbelievers" of this world as you say,( which Spirit by the way Jesus said they of the world cannot receive,) then how are "believers" then reproved if and when they sin? Does not the Light of God's Word and Spirit bear witness to our conscience what is right and what is wrong?

Also are these considered "unbelievers" who once had the Spirit of God, or "believers?"

Acts 5

5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband."

And these, are they believers or unbelievers who once were baptized into Christ?


1 Corinthians 10:9
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Hebrews 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I thought according to your doctrine there's no more falling with the church? Make up my mind, please!

Perhaps their doctrine has loopholes? LOL

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Our teaching really should be consistent with our character,....

That's the problem with their teaching, they are trying to make it consistent with their own sinful character. LOL But I teach what is consistent with the words of God and Christ's character, but like Him, I also am hated for reproving the works of darkness.

 

[Grace777x70]

So if the Holy Spirit is only meant to reprove "unbelievers" of this world as you say,( which Spirit by the way Jesus said they of the world cannot receive,) then how are "believers" then reproved if and when they sin? Does not the Light of God's Word and Spirit bear witness to our conscience what is right and what is wrong?

Also are these considered "unbelievers" who once had the Spirit of God, or "believers?"

Acts 5

5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband."

And these, are they believers or unbelievers who once were baptized into Christ?


1 Corinthians 10:9
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Hebrews 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Ananias and Sapphira - no where does it say that these two were Christians - they were people that tried to join themselves to the real Christians...if you notice in Acts 5:13 it says "that none of the rest dared to associate themselves with the Christians" after they heard about the husband and wife trying to join the Christians.

People wanted to get a share in what the Christians were doing. In verse 11 - it says that great fear came across all who heard about this event.

Acts 5:13(NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Ananias and Sapphira - no where does it say that these two were Christians - they were people that tried to join themselves to the real Christians...

People wanted to get a share in what the Christians were doing. In verse 11 - it says that great fear came across all who heard about this event.

Oops you conveniently omitted this part about the Church...

Acts 5:11
"And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things."

Open your eyes man, do you think "unbelievers" sell their property and give it to the Church? LOL! Or perhaps you missed the part where it says they "lied to God" not man, and "tempted the Spirit of the Lord". It is a far stretch to think these were not considered "believers" who had the Spirit of God in them, but tempted God and His Spirit, and gave up the ghost.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

in Acts 5:13 it says "that none of the rest dared to associate themselves with the Christians" after they heard about the husband and wife trying to join the Christians.

No it does not say that, you are just trying to twist and misrepresent what is being said about Ananias and Sapphira by taking verse 13 out of context. Acts 5:13 is speaking to verse 12 and the apostles....

Acts 5:12-13[SUP]12 [/SUP]And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them."

See, it is about the apostles, nothing to do with Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[Grace777x70]

Oops you conveniently omitted this part about the Church...

Acts 5:11
"And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things."

Open your eyes man, do you think "unbelievers" sell their property and give it to the Church? LOL! Or perhaps you missed the part where it says they "lied to God" not man, and "tempted the Spirit of the Lord". It is a far stretch to think these were not considered "believers" who had the Spirit of God in them, but tempted God and His Spirit, and gave up the ghost.

I was emphasizing the fear that came upon those that were trying to associate themselves with the Christians in verse 13 - just like Ananias and Sapphira were attempting to do.

Here's the thing - these "unbelievers" were not giving all their money to the church. They were trying to make it "appear" as they were with them.

These were Jewish people - born under the law and were well versed with the Jewish system and how frightful fear of God dominated the Jewish person in those times. When Peter said "You lied to God"..they were frightened out of their wits being good Jewish people.

This is the same concept as Paul saying that false prophets were coming to your "love feasts".

People of the world will come to Christian meetings for a variety of reasons....some want the food ...some want to pass out business cards and network.

Here is another reason why they were not Christians - Peter said that "satan has filled your heart".

The Christian has a new heart in Christ. We are joined to the Lord in one spirit in our heart. Christ dwells in our heart. If they were Christians that means that satan came and kicked out the Holy Spirit from the believers heart.

This would make Jesus a liar then : because He said that "the Comforter ( Holy Spirit ), He will be with you and in you forever". John 14:16-17

Satan cannot kick out the Holy Spirit out of a person...that's just plain ridiculous to even think about it.

No, they were no more true Christians then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in Revelation.

 

[Grace777x70]

No it does not say that, you are just trying to twist and misrepresent what is being said about Ananias and Sapphira by taking verse 13 out of context. Acts 5:13 is speaking to verse 12 and the apostles....

Acts 5:12-13[SUP]12 [/SUP]And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them."

See, it is about the apostles, nothing to do with Ananias and Sapphira.

This is all in the same event as Luke was describing what was going on at this time frame of Ananias and Sapphira.

Acts 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

None of the rest of the people that were trying to join them dared associate with them ( and yes ..the apostles) ..why would people dare not to associate with them?

Why would there be a "comparison" in the verse emphasizing a "group that dared not associate with them"

Then when we look in context the very next verse = we see more real "believers" were being adding to the church - not people trying to add themselves.

Acts 5:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,


Anyway I have shown you that I don't believe that Ananias and Sapphira were not real Christians because satan cannot kick out the Holy Spirit from believers that are joined forever with the Lord.

I understand in your religion you think that people can lose salvation so everything will be seen through your eyes in every scripture with this pre-conceived bias. You are allowed to have your own opinions just like everyone else. You are free to believe whatever you want. Bless you and have a good night.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

this sentence:

Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the sinners of this world.

should read:

Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the unbelievers of this world.

Apologies for any confusion.

So if the Holy Spirit is only meant to reprove "unbelievers" of this world as you say,( which Spirit by the way Jesus said they of the world cannot receive,) then how are "believers" then reproved if and when they sin?

In the context of John 16:8-11, "the world" refers to those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Please see verse 9 of John 16.


Those who are born again do believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And those who are born again are chastened and rebuked by the Father. See Heb 12:5,6. And as we endure the chastening of the Father, the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11).


Who is the prince of this world in John 16:11? Does that term refer to believers?

 

[Stephen63]

no I just think that context and balance are vitally important. just picking out every " negative" verses and saying this is what the Bible says is wrong, because that is not the whole story. sin, judgement and hell are real, but that does not mean that that is all the Bible says.

I really have a problem with people who think any verse in the Bible is "negative".

 

[gb9]

and I have a real problem with people who post over and over about sin, judgement and hell, without talking about the grace and love of God. when you just go with judgement verses, it does sound negative. balance Stephen, balance. oh, and context.

 

[Stephen63]

and I have a real problem with people who post over and over about sin, judgement and hell, without talking about the grace and love of God. when you just go with judgement verses, it does sound negative. balance Stephen, balance. oh, and context.

Thank you..... for saying what needed to be said IMBALANCE.

So, while you say his single statement is unbalanced, you're overlooking the "overpositive" message of hypergrace that doesn't have any "negative" judgment at all, even though there's dozens of scriptures that does.

Now that's unbalanced.


Your accusation condemns you.

 

[fredoheaven]

this sentence:

Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the sinners of this world.

should read:

Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the unbelievers of this world.

Apologies for any confusion.

Hi

Why apologies? As I see it, there's nothing wrong of saying "sinners" being reproved of this world. If we look at the context, the "world" consits of:

1. v31 the "prince of this world" same as the "god of this world" in 2 Cor. 4:4
2. vv35-36 refers to to those ;who walk in the darkness" or the the opposite of "children of light" thus "children of darkness
3. or v37 those who believe not in Christ.

We all know that, Satan sin and, the children of darkness as well as the unbelieving ones are all sinners. Yea you are still correct in saying "Clearly, the ministry of the Comforter is to reprove the sinners of this world."

God bless you!

 

[followjesus]

Many followers of Joseph Prince and the “Hyper grace” movement say the Holy Spirit does not reprove or convict them of sin. But is this notion based on scripture? I will show by scripture how this teaching is false, and is also very dangerous because it can cause people to harden their hearts to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the law and commandments, and also the words of God spoken by Jesus, which are Spirit.

First let’s look at a verse in question, which many say is not directed to them being believers, but only to unbelievers who are of the world. Clearly Jesus is talking to his disciples in John 16:8, who were to receive the Holy Spirit, who would in turn reprove the world of sin by their preaching Jesus’ words. We know the Holy Spirit is not given to unbelievers because Jesus said the world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth in John 14:17 “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

So in fact the Holy Spirit is sent dwell in believers, and by Him the world is reproved of sin. But does the Holy Spirit reprove believers of sin? Well let’s first look at the word reprove in John 16:8….

And [SUP]G2532[/SUP] when he is come, [SUP]G2064[/SUP] he [SUP]G1565[/SUP] will reprove [SUP]G1651[/SUP] the world [SUP]G2889[/SUP] of [SUP]G4012[/SUP] sin, [SUP]G266[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] of [SUP]G4012[/SUP] righteousness, [SUP]G1343[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] of [SUP]G4012[/SUP] judgment: [SUP]G2920[/SUP]

The KJV translates Strongs G1651 in the following manner: reprove (6x), rebuke (5x), convince (4x), tell (one's) fault (1x), convict (1x).

Bible usage also shows….by conviction to bring to the light, to expose.

The above words “to bring to light” is interesting because God’s Living Word Jesus Christ is also known as the Light of the world. But let’s first look at a few more verses where this word reprove G1651 is used.

Reproving a brother of sin…

“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell [SUP]G1651[/SUP] him his fault [SUP]G1651[/SUP] between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.” (Mat 18:15)

John reproves Herod of sin by the Spirit….
“But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved [SUP]G1651[/SUP] by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,” (Luke 3:9)

The Light of Gods words reprove a dark world…
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [SUP]G1651[/SUP]” (John 3:20)

Being convicted in their conscience after hearing God’s words, which are light…

“And they which heard it, being convicted [SUP]G1651[/SUP] by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”(John 8:9)

Continued....

good stuff.

paul says godly sorrow and repentance are a good thing in his letters to Corinth.

2 Corinthians 7:8-10 "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. "

I don't know if this really fits your op, I see in it conviction, godly sorrow and repentance.


good stuff

 

[PeterJens]

Sin - What is sin? Sin is rebellion against God and His creation.
Gods heart is in love. Where God is sin does not dwell.

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Heb 12:14

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
1 Thess 3:13

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 4:7-8

Just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:25-27

In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:21


Sin does not dwell with Holiness. Conviction comes through 3 means at least,
1. Your conscience
2. The word
3. The Holy Spirit

Sin destroys you, takes away life and leads you to death.
The Holy Spirit as your Lord, friend and guide will always convict and lead you into
holiness and love.

Those who look only at a religion of self, define things that say conviction, or feeling bad about
behaviour or issues is evil. The issue is not to repent, or obey, or walk into the ways of the Lord
but to get rid of conviction and just work on the positive in everything.

This is in complete contrast to being built into a holy Church without blemish or wrinkle.
The idea that rebellion and sin can abide without God convicting or pointing it out is changing
the meaning of holiness and the nature of the Lord himself, which is not part of Gods revelation.

 

[PeterJens]

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
Acts 4:32

And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 3 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
Acts 4:33- 5:2

The passage in acts puts two pictures up.
Believers coming together, sharing everything, and selling property and giving it to the community.
Joseph sold a field and gave it all to the community.

Ananias and Sapphira did everything except they claimed they had given everything at a particular
price, but actually kept some money back. The problem was making it look like they gave everything.

They were part of the community, yet lied to God.

This was sin walking with a big move of the Holy Spirit.

There is no reason to not believe these where not believers, the only motivation is to resolve
a problem of God judging believers in sin.

These people want a gospel where sin and the Holy Spirit live together in the believers heart
with no issues and no conviction or statement of problems.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
Acts 4:32

And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 3 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
Acts 4:33- 5:2

The passage in acts puts two pictures up.
Believers coming together, sharing everything, and selling property and giving it to the community.
Joseph sold a field and gave it all to the community.

Ananias and Sapphira did everything except they claimed they had given everything at a particular
price, but actually kept some money back. The problem was making it look like they gave everything.

They were part of the community, yet lied to God.

This was sin walking with a big move of the Holy Spirit.

There is no reason to not believe these where not believers, the only motivation is to resolve
a problem of God judging believers in sin.

These people want a gospel where sin and the Holy Spirit live together in the believers heart
with no issues and no conviction or statement of problems.

That's right, the only reason one would not see them as believers and members of the Church is if they were trying to uphold the false teachings of Joseph Prince and OSAS doctrine. In order to hold up any false teaching you have to use smoke and mirror tactics, twisting words and meanings, ignoring certain scriptures, and trying to misrepresent what is plainly written as G777 has constantly practiced in these forums to uphold Mr, Prince's false doctrine.

 

[Grace777x70]

That's right, the only reason one would not see them as believers and members of the Church is if they were trying to uphold the false teachings of Joseph Prince and OSAS doctrine. In order to hold up any false teaching you have to use smoke and mirror tactics, twisting words and meanings, ignoring certain scriptures, and trying to misrepresent what is plainly written as G777 has constantly practiced in these forums to uphold Mr, Prince's false doctrine.

That is nonsense and just slander and malice. People can agree to disagree without this type of behavior being practiced. We are trying to show respect to each other in these forums. This will be reported.

 

[Utah]

Then blow the dust off of it, read it, and then believe every word of it.

It's pretty safe to say FreeNChrist reads Scripture and lives it.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Those who are born again do believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And those who are born again are chastened and rebuked by the Father. See Heb 12:5,6. And as we endure the chastening of the Father, the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11).

So you do agree "believers" can be reproved by the Holy Spirit? Let me refresh some of the examples I gave in my OP.....

“As many as I love, I rebuke [SUP]G1651[/SUP] and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.” (Rev. 3:9)

Now going back to this concept of how the Light reproves the darkness = sinful behavior

God is Light ….. 1 John 1:5 God’s Word is Light…. John 8:12

God’s laws and commandments are light….Proverbs 6:23

Jesus disciples who have Christ in them are light….Matthew 5:14

And the gospel message is also light….2 Corinthians 4:4

Does God use any of the above forms of Light to reprove "believers" of sin in the body of Christ?