the truth in the words of paul...

[followjesus]

The niv should be used primarily as stated in the earlier post. The roots of the niv are different than that of the kjv. The groups who use the niv for teaching are a system unto themselves, many doctrinal errors can come from this.

You seem to be a good student of the Word - it is good to be aware of the distinctions in texts and in groups who use them. There are other threads deep into this discussion. For now just an awareness awakening ...

ive honestly read both probably 30 tines in my life from cover to cover and find the message to be exactly the same in the niv and kjv. that's just my own thoughts. I do see a few differences in wording but the message that is conveyed I find to be exactly the same in both. some folks simply cant understand kjv, I myself have spent many hours looking up words I had no clue of the meaning in kjv a lot of people don't have the patience to understand kjv. so many folks ive known when I talk to them about the lords word say " I just cant understand it" I feel niv makes understanding it much easier and as I said I always compare if something is not jiving woith Jesus

 

[followjesus]

KJ is the text, the niv is like reading cliff notes

its the exact same message brother.

 

[followjesus]

I started off with the KJV and went to the NIV and I have not suffered a lack of understanding of the word of God. Of course I am also comparing verses with the interlinear and most of the major translations side by side, as well as doing word studies for Hebrew and Greek. Regarding the KJV, I wouldn't exactly call that the best translation.

totally agree. though id say " kjv isn't the best translation for everyone"

 

[followjesus]

Agreed, but there is a deeper understanding here for those who want meat and not just milk.

Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The word begat here is teaching us that Seth was created through Adam's seed, a part of Adam. Jesus was begotten through the seed of God which was placed in Mary's womb. That point's us back to Genesis 3:15 to the promised seed.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

You see that seed is of the woman. Wait, but the woman does not carry the seed. Man has the seed. This is the first indication of the virgin birth and that this seed was going to be placed by God. The one born of the woman would be from the seed of God, the only begotten.

never noticed that thanks for sharing

 

[followjesus]

That doesn't need to be done with the KJV. Words are important to God not just meaning. And yes, the niv and the KJV contain different words and teachings because they are from different manuscripts altogether. The bottom line comes down to final authority. Who has the final authority on what God has said? Man or a His word?

its what God is saying to us that is important, the message conveyed if I say to you : Hi, hello, hey, howdie, hiya or if I say hej, alo, labas, buna...ect.....im saying hello. the message is the same. what He is saying to us is whats important. words don't save, but what the words mean save us. the message

 

[John146]

its what God is saying to us that is important, the message conveyed if I say to you : Hi, hello, hey, howdie, hiya or if I say hej, alo, labas, buna...ect.....im saying hello. the message is the same. what He is saying to us is whats important. words don't save, but what the words mean save us. the message

See post #117, there is a huge difference even in the teaching.

 

[followjesus]

See post #117, there is a huge difference even in the teaching.

what is the difference to you in the teaching?

 

[followjesus]

Yes, it's speaking of the Lord Jesus, but one may miss the reference that He is THE only begotten. If I read the niv through entirely and came to John 3:16...I may have a problem since it reads one and only Son because I also read that Adam was a son and the angels were sons of God. Would I get that understanding through a capital S? Nope.

Another HUGE one in my regards is the doctrine of the "faith of Christ". See Galatians 2:16, 20




KJV - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

NIV - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

I am justified by the faith of Christ through my belief. My faith is weak and wavering, but Christ's faith is unwavering. I stand on Christ's faith not my own. Take a look at Philippians 3:9:

KJV - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

NIV - and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Romans 3:22
KJV - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

NIV - This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Again, the Faith of Christ is obviously Christ's faith, however, faith in Christ points to our individual faith.

I myself don't really see the "huge" difference. the niv teaches Jesus was conceived by the spirit or begotten, born of God. we aren't begotten, we are adopted through Jesus. born through His spirit in us. He is the one and only son, the firstborn over all creation. He is born of God , we are born of God only through the one and only.....

I'm definitely not arguing, just to me, it rings to be a word difference that doesn't affect the message that is conveyed in the niv or kjv. there are other differences in wording also " but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" yet it is there in niv in a different place. just my own faith the message is the same....to me anyways. God bless

 

[John146]

I myself don't really see the "huge" difference. the niv teaches Jesus was conceived by the spirit or begotten, born of God. we aren't begotten, we are adopted through Jesus. born through His spirit in us. He is the one and only son, the firstborn over all creation. He is born of God , we are born of God only through the one and only.....

I'm definitely not arguing, just to me, it rings to be a word difference that doesn't affect the message that is conveyed in the niv or kjv. there are other differences in wording also " but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" yet it is there in niv in a different place. just my own faith the message is the same....to me anyways. God bless

The two phrases are different and teach different doctrines. I'll try to be short.

Galatians 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This glorious Scripture establishes the foundational truth of the gospel that you don't get in any modern versions, instead using faith in Christ. God's word declares that man can only be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not by works of the law.Galatians 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The Holy Spirit wrote that the Apostle Paul and all believers are crucified with Christ and now we live by the faith of the Son of God. The believer does not live by his own faith as under the law.

Romans 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

The righteousness of God is not by my faith in Jesus Christ, but the faith of Jesus Christ. It's all about Jesus Christ. Can you see how enept this makes God's word?

The faith of Christ is given to those that believe His gospel. Through belief in the gospel, one is justified by the faith of Christ. Remember, faith without works is dead. Christ's faith is not without works. Look at the cross! My individual faith could not possibly saved me. Christ's faith never waivers! Praise the Lord!

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is not Church Age doctrine. Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac. The Scripture that said Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, Gen.15, was not fulfilled until seven chapters later in Gen. 22. It took works to fulfill it. The Church Age believer is not justified by any works of their own but by faith only, Romans 4. The works have been done! We need to just believe the gospel of Christ and His faith is imputed to us! Christ's faith, what we are justified by, is not without works. Our individual faith has nothing to do with our justification before men or God.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

ive honestly read both probably 30 tines in my life from cover to cover and find the message to be exactly the same in the niv and kjv. that's just my own thoughts. I do see a few differences in wording but the message that is conveyed I find to be exactly the same in both. some folks simply cant understand kjv, I myself have spent many hours looking up words I had no clue of the meaning in kjv a lot of people don't have the patience to understand kjv. so many folks ive known when I talk to them about the lords word say " I just cant understand it" I feel niv makes understanding it much easier and as I said I always compare if something is not jiving woith Jesus

You probably have a reverse eisegesis syndrome of sorts - seeing truth in both versions. Many threads and web sites lay out the [albeit subtle] doctrinal, philosophical, cultural and anthropological distinctions. Start with the differences in root texts (textus receptus vs codex sinaticus vs codex vaticanus), the groups involved and the interpretive technique and motivation.

End of discussion on Bible versions for me - did not mean to or want to divert or hijack an already important thread and it's focus ...

 

[followjesus]

The two phrases are different and teach different doctrines. I'll try to be short.

Galatians 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This glorious Scripture establishes the foundational truth of the gospel that you don't get in any modern versions, instead using faith in Christ. God's word declares that man can only be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not by works of the law.Galatians 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The Holy Spirit wrote that the Apostle Paul and all believers are crucified with Christ and now we live by the faith of the Son of God. The believer does not live by his own faith as under the law.

Romans 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

The righteousness of God is not by my faith in Jesus Christ, but the faith of Jesus Christ. It's all about Jesus Christ. Can you see how enept this makes God's word?

The faith of Christ is given to those that believe His gospel. Through belief in the gospel, one is justified by the faith of Christ. Remember, faith without works is dead. Christ's faith is not without works. Look at the cross! My individual faith could not possibly saved me. Christ's faith never waivers! Praise the Lord!

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is not Church Age doctrine. Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac. The Scripture that said Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, Gen.15, was not fulfilled until seven chapters later in Gen. 22. It took works to fulfill it. The Church Age believer is not justified by any works of their own but by faith only, Romans 4. The works have been done! We need to just believe the gospel of Christ and His faith is imputed to us! Christ's faith, what we are justified by, is not without works. Our individual faith has nothing to do with our justification before men or God.

if we have the faith of Jesus, we all would be raising the dead and moving mountains into the sea, haling the sick. we cant on one hand say I have the faith that Jesus has, and then our lives show no faith at all. we are justified by Faith IN Christ in my humble opinion. we believe in Jesus believe that He is who He says he is, and because we believe that, we follow him, hes the Lord, we follow. if we have been imputed with His righteousness, then our works will show it.


faith is what is misunderstood, its not an inner thought, it is belief that moves us to action. if I have faith that Jesus is the Lord, and I see Him say " do this" I will do it if I believe that He is the Lord. sincerity of faith in Jesus works for me, I know who He is and because I do, I follow Him, Hes my Lord and what servant will ignore his Lord? none that is true. true faith is belief in action the 2 cant be separated, though belief has to be first, and that produces the action. if my action comes from the Lords word it cannot fail.

I'm not trying to argue with you, either way I believe faith will lead to action, if not it is just a thought of no profit or a fantasy. and I also do find value in having the same faith OF Jesus, that is definitely my goal in life. God bless thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant I appreciate that.

 

[followjesus]

You probably have a reverse eisegesis syndrome of sorts - seeing truth in both versions. Many threads and web sites lay out the [albeit subtle] doctrinal, philosophical, cultural and anthropological distinctions. Start with the differences in root texts (textus receptus vs codex sinaticus vs codex vaticanus), the groups involved and the interpretive technique and motivation.

End of discussion on Bible versions for me - did not mean to or want to divert or hijack an already important thread and it's focus ...

lol oh what thread on here doesn't get off track ? its all good I appreciate the insight and courtesy God bless and remain present with you in every area of life, in Jesus name

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Faith OF Jesus:
He did it, I don't have to - live by "grace"

Faith IN Jesus:
He did it, told us to do it - live by truth

Dangerous differences opening the door to license to sin (lasciviousness) in the name of grace - no different from witchcraft and the reason Paul called the Galatians 'bewitched'. Such are the sublime deceptions in the New International Version ...

 

[JGIG]

Hmm...........Grace:

You said:

They all say that "works doesn't save us" because mentally they know Eph 2:8-9 is true but it's in the "doing of things to maintain righteousness" that gets them caught and in truth they violate Eph. 2:8-9



Did you cut that passage of Scripture a bit short there? Why? Verses 8 and 9 are only PART of what Paul was teaching. Here is the whole thought/lesson he was teaching.

8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When people exclude verse 10 as it it doesn't even exist, it does not reflect well on their theological ideology. Should we not give consideration to all of the Scripture? I know verse 10 causes problems for some ideologies, BUT it is Scripture, and it IS Truth.

Yes, vs. 10 is certainly part of the believer's life, but it's the fruit of our life in Christ, not the root of our life in Christ.

-JGIG

 

[followjesus]

Faith OF Jesus:
He did it, I don't have to - live by "grace"

Faith IN Jesus:
He did it, told us to do it - live by truth

Dangerous differences opening the door to license to sin (lasciviousness) in the name of grace - no different from witchcraft and the reason Paul called the Galatians 'bewitched'. Such are the sublime deceptions in the New International Version ...

I still don't find a difference if I have faith in, or of, either way he is the Lord, he said "do this" the faith to me that matters is "who is Jesus" if I believe He is the Lord, and He is, then the sincerity of my belief will be evident in my actions. we must follow Jesus

 

[JGIG]

lol naw just trying to show people that paul doesn't teach unconditional salvation, or some different Gospel, but also teaches the same things as Jesus including a coming day of Judgement that includes us just like Jesus said .

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (from Jn. 5)​

-JGIG

 

[followjesus]

Yes, vs. 10 is certainly part of the believer's life, but it's the fruit of our life in Christ, not the root of our life in Christ.

-JGIG

either way, we walk in the good works, we don't say Jesus did it that's enough.....the doctrine says "I'm already approved created in righteousness.....so its time then to pass the test of faith and actually do what were suppose to do. there is evidence in faith. and so everyoine understands the tree and fruit thing is an analogy, we aren't actually in animate palknts or trees, were not called to stand in one spot and wait for magic, were called to go walk in the truth of our confession Jesus is Lord. I=f were new creations already, where is the righteous actions or "fruit " of that ? Gods desire is that "new creations" are yielding good fruit righteous actions according to Jesus. we learn from Him what to do. Hes the Lord, were the disciples and servants. the new creation is a servant of the Lord. we serve His will, not by saying he did good works so we don't need to. if were new, then were created in righteousness to walk in the righteousness we profess. glorify God through good works if a person is already righteous it will show. test the doctrine against our lives, Jesus doctrine works

 

[followjesus]

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (from Jn. 5)​

-JGIG

"why do you call me Lord Lord and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who hears my word and puts it into practice. He is like a wise man who built His house upon the rock, when the rains came and thr torrents rose, His house stood strong. but the one who hears my word and does not put it into practice is like a foolish man who built His house on sand without a foundation, when the rains came and the torrents rose, His house fell with a great crash, and its destruction was complete.


Ill be the wise builder. true belief is what is called for. if I believe Jesus, He is the one saying do thes things, so if belief is true, I will. difference between saying I believe and believing is whether I do. if Jesus told you there is a million dollars buried in your back yard and you believed it.....what would you do? you would start digging......if we believe truly, action is the result.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

"why do you call me Lord Lord and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who hears my word and puts it into practice. He is like a wise man who built His house upon the rock, when the rains came and thr torrents rose, His house stood strong. but the one who hears my word and does not put it into practice is like a foolish man who built His house on sand without a foundation, when the rains came and the torrents rose, His house fell with a great crash, and its destruction was complete.


Ill be the wise builder. true belief is what is called for. if I believe Jesus, He is the one saying do thes things, so if belief is true, I will. difference between saying I believe and believing is whether I do. if Jesus told you there is a million dollars buried in your back yard and you believed it.....what would you do? you would start digging......if we believe truly, action is the result.

That there reminded me of Noah

Noah believed God, as it was by faith he began preparing (building an ark to the saving of his house). Having been warned Noah moved with fear (even in that same faith) and in respects to things to come (which were yet unseen). And it says, by the which Noah condemned the world, and becoming the heir of the righteousness which is by faith

Heres the verse

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

God bless Bro

 

[followjesus]

That there reminded me of Noah

Noah believed God, as it was by faith he began preparing (building an ark to the saving of his house). Having been warned Noah moved with fear (even in that same faith) and in respects to things to come (which were yet unseen). And it says, by the which Noah condemned the world, and becoming the heir of the righteousness which is by faith

Heres the verse

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

God bless Bro

amen and amen. thank you muches for that scripture, I'm not surprised anymore you always seem to hit on my personal studies and add some new tidbit that I missed. Just began studying a thought about baptism by water, and the flood. I cant put my finger on it but something is there that is of value. I'm sure this will tie in lol


always and always a blessing sis. Bless you right back