If the wilderness Tabernacle was made in the pattern shown to Moses by God...

FreeNChrist · Aug 12, 2016

God has said that Christians are not under the Law. He said it, not me.

heavenly_bound · Aug 12, 2016

It's like a knee-jerk reaction almost to call law-keepers "anti-Christ"? You can' lump all the laws articulated by Paul together because you cause confusion. When Paul says "law" he's not always talking about the same law. So let's simplify it (although we can get even more specific if we need to), all of the things God told the levites to do were a placeholder and never meant to be the true ministration because they represented what Christ would do. It's those things ya don't wanna go back to. To go back to those things are indeed "anti-Christ". Not talking about going back to those things.

Ok, now that that's been established lets speak on the commandments, which are ALSO called "Law" but you know we mean the commandments:

"The law was made for the unrighteous". Exactly true. This is exactly what both yours and my list explaining the function of the law describes. Society's law shows what a crime is so to God's law shows was a sin is. But these laws are NOT Moses' laws but God's laws given through Moses.

The Holy Spirit was given on the same holy day as the laws written on the tables of stone. The Holy Spirit is the embodiment of those same laws. Those tables were a representation of the Holy Spirit. The difference between the tablets and The Holy Spirit is you can't place stone tablets in a person's heart; they're always on the outside of a person, never entering in. Thus the Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of God's promise in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:33
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my (GOD'S, NOT MOSES') law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

...and of Ezekiel

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my (GOD'S, NOT MOSES') laws.

These are the same laws, just made alive by the Spirit of God. They're not dead on a block of stone unable to affect a change. But I haven't pick which ones I want to follow and which ones I don't want to follow. God's law does that all on it's on because NOT every laws was for everyone. For instance,

There were laws for the priests which other people couldn't do. There were law for when one is in the promised land which can't be don't when someone is away. There are laws just meant to be placeholders until the proper person could come and do them correctly (like in the case of animal sacrifices & Christ's ministry). So there's no picking and choosing I'm guilty of when I follow the scriptures that says "the blood of bulls and goats can't take away sins", that means I don't do those.

1) the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus IS the Holy Spirit who will take you back to Ezekiel 36:27

2) the law of love which will take you back to Ezekiel 36:27

3) the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith Gal. 3:12 ) is Justification. And once we are justified, we're taken back to Ezekiel 36:27

4) the law of liberty in Christ Jesus - is freedom; Justified. And once we are justified, we're taken back to Ezekiel 36:27

5) the law of Christ - Himself - saves us from the condemnation of the Law, so that now we can obey in love

But we are LITERALLY obeying the law to not have sex with animals because of the spirit in us. It makes no sense to say we don't have to obey. The fact that we don't want to means we automatically "are".

As to seeing Christ in the OT; that's exactly what I was getting at in my first post on this thread. Do you see Christ in the sapphire stones? Descending from heaven and being broken for man's sin?

Christ showed God's laws in their true form. To "go back" that Paul was referring to was to sacrifice for sin.

The reason why we still talking about the LAW in the first place is that , we have not yet come to terms with the fact the believer is living the life of ANOTHER! we are DEATH to the OLD MAN( adam) and are now found IN CHRIST( the second and last adam) . Christ is the one living as US! by virtue of our union with the Son of God, we have been included in the shared life and love of the GODHEAD! therefore the nature of God is that which we are. if we can only understand this, we will not talk of any form of law bc we do not require the law to live the nature of God!!! As He Christ is, so are we in this World!!!!

Dan_473 · Aug 12, 2016

(I mean this seriously, honestly, gently...)
I think I understand the attraction of Hebrew Roots
it's fun to pretend to be Jewish

Willie-T · Aug 12, 2016

Yonah said:

For one thing, you know Abraham lied, so that blows theory #1 all to pieces. He was an upright man, approved of God, but he did not keep all the commandments. His men (that would be people obeying "him") also killed other people, as I recall.

Zechariah also doubted the word of the angel of the Lord and was struck dumb for the disobedience.

You really can't just willie-nillie go thinking every single word you read has to mean only the limited and restricted thing you might have in mind.

heavenly_bound · Aug 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Thanks for the the explanations bro. i just wish to add that each time Paul says 'knowing this......" i always ask the question, how many really know what Paul presumes we already know? and each time Paul's says "knowing that...." its exactly what we don't know or rather we don't want to know. some of us are so much "in love with" the law that we deliberately close our eyes to the free grace of our lord !!! Lord have mercy!!

jcha · Aug 12, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Just not fun to be a hypocrite, viper, snakes.

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[TD]Strong's Concordance

echidna: a viper

Original Word: ἔχιδνα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: echidna
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-id-nah)
Short Definition: a serpent, snake, viper
Definition: a serpent, snake, viper.HELPS Word-studies
2191 éxidna – properly, a poisonous snake; (figuratively) incisive words that deliver deadly venom, with the use of blasphemy. This switches the bitter for the sweet, light for darkness, etc. 2191/exidna("viper") then suggests the venomous desire to reverse what is true for what is false.

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The Song of the Vineyard
(Luke 13:6-9) 6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not,then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Isaiah 1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:2And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.3And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?5And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:6And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.7For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.Woes to the Wicked8Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!9In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.10Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah.11Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night,till wine inflame them!12And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.13Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men arefamished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.14Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.15And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:16But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.17Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.18Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:19That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!21Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!22Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:23Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!24Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.25Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.26And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:27None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:28Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:29Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.30And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

heavenly_bound · Aug 12, 2016

Dan_473 said:

well said Dan_473 lol. yes i think some of us are attracted to the Jewish culture and its traditions; that why we are bent on keeping the laws , at all cost. well go ahead, but as for us( the graced ones) we will live the good and perfect life that was procure for us at Calvary; To him be all glory

gotime · Aug 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I think you may have made a few erroneous assumptions here.

1st Is your argument that Abraham sinned. Well that is true as all have sinned, Yet of Abraham it is said he obeyed. Thus we find that Gods love and Grace was in action even in His day. So much so that a sinner was transformed and seen by God as fully obedient.

You said "God dealt with Abraham through a covenant of grace - not the Law as given by Moses."

First problem here is you seem to be making out that God gave Grace to Abraham and then did not to those of Moses.

God actually gave the same covenant that He gave to Abraham to Israel through Moses because of his promise to Abraham.

Second you need to see that the law is not one book but 5, which includes the story of Abraham. That this law/5 books were written by Moses for Israel who had the law. Genesis was and should be read in light of all that took place in the day of Moses. When it says that Abraham obeyed Gods laws and commandments it is written for Israel who know the law and the commandments. The difference is that Abraham was taught them on a personal level. like Moses. Abraham commanded His household after him while Moses commanded a nation.

When we disconnect them we come up with funny and faulty views.

Here is the problem that I see you making, You argue from a legal perspective. But are you sure that those who argue with are keeping the law in the way you assume?

Or do they do it as Abraham and Paul did, by faith in God, a loving relationship that transformed them. Thus they both did not strive at the law Yet kept it. Unlike those who stirved at the law and could not keep it.

I like how Paul showed the mistake here:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Blessings

jcha · Aug 12, 2016

Yonah said:

I like the way you stated that.

Yes, we are all sinners. I often think about David and His adultery and murder. There was no sacrifice at the temple he could make to God for a wilful sinning. His only recourse was to repent, confess his sins, and accept God's forgiveness. Can anyone say "that's grace" before Jesus came?

FreeNChrist · Aug 12, 2016

jcha said:

I like the way you stated that.

Yes, we are all sinners. I often think about David and His adultery and murder. There was no sacrifice at the temple he could make to God for a wilful sinning. His only recourse was to repent, confess his sins, and accept God's forgiveness. Can anyone say "that's grace" before Jesus came?

They could, but they'd be wrong.

Yonah · Aug 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Would giving away your wife to another man to have sex with her count as being "lawful"? This is exactly what Abraham did - twice. We have just been religiously programmed to think whenever we see "commandment" - we think of the Law only.

All men have sinned and sin is the transgression of the Law - so it's easy "to get".....if we don't think of commandments as only the "Law" given by Moses.

God dealt with Abraham through a covenant of grace - not the Law as given by Moses.

In Luke 1 - they were blameless because they kept the temple sacrifices.

Here is Paul talking about being blameless too as to his interpretation of the Law. Phil 3:2-9 ( Notice Paul deals with the dogs - the evil workers - those trying to get people to go back to the Law for living in verse 2-3 ..Paul calls them the false circumcision)

Philippians 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

And yet Paul said that he was the chief of sinners and a coveter.

Paul who knew the Law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it

seriously? did you even read the account of which you speak? do you really think Abraham did as you said? or what the bible actually says, and none of what you wrote properly addressed my question... its ok I didn't expect it would....

Yonah · Aug 12, 2016

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
amazing isn't it?

Grace777x70 · Aug 12, 2016

gotime said:

I argue from New Covenant perspective. The real Christian is not under the Law in any capacity. The Law did it's job and now we are in Christ. To go back to the Law for living is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord Jesus. Romans 7:1-6. We have died to the Law SO THAT we can be joined to Another - Christ Himself.

Paul who knew the Law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

If people want to be "law-keepers" then that is your choice but it is not the New Covenant no matter how much you try to make it. There are modern day Judaizers trying to get Christians to go back to keeping the Law just like they tried when Paul preached the gospel.

It is anti-Christ in it's belief system and denies the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did in His work on the cross and resurrection.

Remember Paul said in the last days people would be "anti-Christ" NOT "anti-God".

This describes the modern day Judaizers trying to pervert the gospel of the grace of Christ. Paul had some very harsh words to say about these Judaizers. Repent and trust in Christ's work - He is more then enough! You can trust His life in us to lead us now because we eat from the tree of Life now - which is Christ Himself.

heavenly_bound · Aug 12, 2016

PaulMack said:

my beloved brethren, in God's economy, there's no us! we are death (Col 3:3-5) how can someone who is death continues to keep any law whatsoever? The Son has replaced us!!!!(Gal 2 ;20). This is the mystery of God that He hid even before the foundations of the world!!! That we will live the life of another; that we will be defined by another!!

FreeNChrist · Aug 12, 2016

Yonah said:

Gods graciousness (hen) in the OT, is not new covenant grace (charis). The new covenant concept of grace did not exist in the context of the old covenant. "Grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17). IOW new covenant grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ.

PeterJens · Aug 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I wonder what you make of the quotes that say for the new people of God
have the law written on their hearts and those who follow Jesus are slaves to
the law of the Spirit and righteousness.

Now this does not sound like they are free from all law or all principles.
Rather the gospel says through love working in our hearts we obey Jesus's
commands which is fulfilling the law.

Now Grace777 version of faith says traditional christianity is anti-christian so by
implication he has gone apostate, and disassociated himself from the faith.

He has invented a term for everyone, Judaizers, like a curse on people.
His bitterness and hatred is growing stronger, as he starts to understand people
are not going to roll over and condemn the words of Paul, Peter, John and Jesus
to accept his grace is everything, God does it all, we do nothing.

Yonah · Aug 12, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

of course it wouldn't be the same word in Hebrew as it is in koine greek but the meaning is essentially the same, as usuall no scripture whatsoever in proper context to even begin to back up what you claim. the Father does NOT change and as such His grace changes not as well. too much twistianity going on... this is why manys faith is so weak and ineffective in the face of the darkness of this age...

FreeNChrist · Aug 12, 2016

Yonah said:

Gods graciousness in the OT is not the same as participating in the activity of God in Christ Jesus as the word 'grace' is used in the NT.

heavenly_bound · Aug 12, 2016

Yonah said:

yes its true that the Father doesn't change BUT His dealings with man changes from one dispensations to another( Heb 1: 1-4). therefore grace in the OT is not Grace in the new. in fact GRACE in the new is Christ Jesus Himself. He is both the giver and the gifts join as one which God gave to the world to whosoever!

jcha · Aug 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Is it a possibility that true Gentiles (non-Israelites) cannot "go back to the law" because they never had the law? And in the same way, those who had the law, that is the House of Israel (Jesus called them lost sheep) who God divorced and Jesus death, burial and resurrection brought the House of Israel back into a new covenant that is actually a renewal of covenant?

IMO, NO-LAW versus PRO-LAW individuals may have a different "calling" and us who love God by keeping His forever commandments, are drawn by the Spirit. We PRO-law are not committing adultery, because we know God through THE WORD, and we know the only name that will save us, that is Jesus in English or Yeshua in Hebrew. We know the whole Bible is applicable to our lives and there is no error in the Word. But, what of the no-law guys? Are they not also being led by the Spirit? For both parties, Some scriptures cling to us and we can't shake them off. The Jews are our brothers. The Christian no-law are also members of the same body as the pro-law are members of the same body, for all have sinned and know Jesus is the only door to the re-United kingdom. That is IMO, is the division of least in kingdom versus great in kingdom. Our walk in this life will bring about deserving rewards versus works that burn up and become as ashes, and worthless.

It's time to see we are really are on the same team....just different body parts with different functions, but all have the same head, Jesus Christ (not Paul). I hope this is a reasonable "view".

Jeremiah 3:Israel's and Judah's Unfaithfulness
…7"I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8"And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. 9"Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.…

shall come forth from their midst; And I will bring him near and he shall approach Me; For who would dare to risk his life to approach Me?' declares the LORD.22You shall be My people, And I will be your God.'"23Behold, the tempest of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, A sweeping tempest; It will burst on the head of the wicked.…

New American Standard Bible

Cross References
Exodus 6:7
'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Jeremiah 24:7
'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 31:1
"At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people."

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jeremiah 32:38
"They shall be My people, and I will be their God;

Ezekiel 36:28
"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Hosea 2:23
"I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"

Zechariah 13:9
"And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

If the wilderness Tabernacle was made in the pattern shown to Moses by God...

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