Can we just focus on one point?

[reneweddaybyday]

Here is a record from Acts 5 after many signs and wonders were wrought among the people which resulted in the apostles being imprisoned, the angel of the Lord opening the doors of the prison, and the apostles going back to the temple to teach the people

The apostles were brought before the high priest, the captain of the temple, and the chief priests. The pharisee, Gamaliel (who taught Paul), encouraged the council to let the apostles go:

Acts 5:

39 And now I (Gamaliel) say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

The apostles taught and preached Jesus Christ in the temple and in every house.



Here is discussion among the disciples concerning whether a secular job should be continued while one is involved in full time ministering to God's people:

Acts 6:

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.


The result of this decision ---


7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

 

[abcdef]

I'm constantly told i misrepresent God and His word. But no one is specific.

So lets try something simple. I contend that the one exalted, titled, salaried pastor is not biblical.

• Here's everbody's chance to prove me wrong.
• Read the chapters in 1Cor.12, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4 and point out the sermonizing single top pastor.
• and that with the congregation quiet and listening.

Brother Yet,

I'm not going to write it out, (it kinda hurts sometimes),

Read it for yourself, thanks,

1 Cor 9:6-14, 9

 

[Stephen63]

I actually like this thread..... no arguing for a change.

One thing I'd like to mention. While I do believe the minister is worthy of his hire, I'm concerned at the AMOUNT of his/her hire, as well as the SIZE of the congregation.

IMO, it's wrong to pay a minister an exorbitant salary. It results in promoting competition between ministers, as well as tempting ministers to become hirlings.

Now, don't get upset with me..... mega churches are too big. Believe it or not, the same thing happens between mega churches & small churches as it does between Wal-mart & mom & pop stores. There's not any real growth in the whole church with the additions of mega churches. While they grow, small churches close. Personal ministry as a whole is lost. Instead of down-home atmospheres, it's mostly professional atmospheres with SEVERAL paid positions. While that's not "sinful" per se, what it does do is promote a great deal of hireling problems.

I'm not trying to knock every mega church, for some do an excellent job. But, as we're nearing the end, the bigger the church, the easier it is to "hand over" scores of christians to the Antichrist with false doctrines.

 

[TemporaryCircumstances]

Our church is quiet big but they have split it up into three different "churches" all still nondenominational and all still on the same series but each has a "campus pastor" who is basically always guaranteed to be there if you need to talk and a pastor that teaches at that individual church.
Oh and separate worship teams.

 

[Yet]

Is it written in Scripture that shepherds should not receive monetary allowances?

In the book of Acts, chapter 20, all the elders in a local assembly were told to 'feed the sheep'. That makes them 'pastors'. They were also all told to work jobs.

 

[Yet]

I would have to research the actual scriptures, but it appears that Timothy was a pretty long-term preacher at Ephesus, and like I mentioned, all the other people that were sent by Paul to various cities... I'm not sure they were itinerant... there was no mention of how long they were to work in those cities.

The scriptures you show seem to pertain only to itinerant preachers, as well... or traveling "evangelists"

Either way, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill, to suggest that a church cannot choose to pay a minister whatever THEY deem proper, to be a full time preacher.

Well do we want to obey the scriptures or follow the traditions of men that nullify the word of God. There are reasons why certain things were set in order and it would serve the people better if we paid attention to them and follow them.

I don't know what you mean when you said that the scriptures i submit pertain to the traveling preachers. Please be more specific. Thanks. Im an old fellow that needs guidance. Smile.

Now again the chapters i use shows everyone is to minister. Today they all have been shut down for the sake of one paid minister. This robs the body of Christ of fulfilment, styfles the gifts and functions, and makes the members impotent, and lethargic at best, spiritually.

Now the point of this thread is to demonstrate that the 'one man paid band' is not biblical. I use plenty of scripture proving the functionality of every member in the assembly is what God set forth and desires.

I'm asking for scripture to prove i'm wrong. But you hint that what the word says about it doesn't really matter, no big deal. That's dangerous. So everyone please, if you cannot produce a verse or two in defence of your 'executive pastor' belief, don't say a thing. Either the word of God is our guide or it is not. I believe it is and the 'body' suffers for want of obedience.

 

[Yet]

In Ephesians 4, we are again directed to this truth of doing all things in love:

Ephesians 4:15-16 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Every joint supplying according to the effectual working in the measure of every part and resulting in the increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love is the same truth found in Rom 12 and 1 Cor 12.

So you, Yet, as a member of a congregation, are to participate within the congregation as God has gifted you and you are to do so in love.

Is it loving for you to go into your congregation and tell the teacher he is an "exalted, titled, salaried pastor" who is acting in a capacity which is "not biblical"?

Or is it loving for you to go into your congregation, listen to the message, allow God to work in your heart to bring forth increase to the truth you hear, and then fellowship with the believers afterward?

And then, when you leave to enter the mission field, share what God is working in your heart with all you come into contact.

Love is telling the truth, not covering over falsehood. Should Jesus have gone into the temple and listened to the teacher and not rebuke the money changers?

You said i need to 'go to church' and use my gift. That's the whole point. Its not set up conducive for the free flow of mutual ministering. The one guy expounds his 7 point sermon while everyone sits with duct tape on his mouth.

You still have not produced a verse supporting what i just described. Give us a verse, just one.

 

[Yet]

What about the time Paul talked into late in the night - and the kid dropped off the stairs and Paul raised him from the dead?

Paul was doing a lot of speaking then. There is a time for the teachers to teach and in fact all 5-fold ministries to do what they are called to do - which is build up the body of Christ. To say that every time every one is supposed to speak too instead of the leaders in every meeting is just deception....IMO

Thats a nice try but it wont wash.,i already addressed that wih the greek for preach which means debate, a dialogue, not a monologue. Read my posts. And Paul was acting as an envoy, a messenger. Preaching the gospel to the folks the great transition from old covenant to new covenant. Not a normal 'church service' as it were.

There is a place for teaching the younger believers but see Ephesians 4. For what purpose was the reason to train up the newbees? To just sit for the next 50 years with their mouths shut while the one and same teacher keeps rattling on sunday after sunday? Give us a verse to support such an MO.

 

[Yet]

Paul believed in receiving compensation for his evangelical work.

“If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it
too much if we reap material things from you?” (1 Cor. 9:11, ESV)

“the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the
gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1 Cor. 9:14)

“One who is taught the word must share
all good things with the one who teaches” (Gal. 6:6)

This is referring to the apostle's ministry. The itenerent preachers had a right to accept support if it was offered. They were told not to charge, but freely give.

This is not talking about the static elders and teachers. Acts 20 does not tell them to accept payment but tells them to work jobs so they can take care of the poor. They are not to be covetious or greedy for filthy lucre.

 

[Yet]

I don't quite understand if you want us to provide scriptures to support the role of a pastor being biblical or to support a paid one though I am leaning toward the latter one in which case there is little to no scripture to prove the role of a paid pastor or preacher but even so does a pastor who likely has family to take care of bills to pay organizations that he the supports financially or even medicine that needs to be paid for become unqualified to preach and to teach?

as for if you mean the role of a pastor preacher or minister many have already provided more than enough scripture evidence for that one

I must have overlooked it but i haven't seen anyone provide a verse for the 'one, executive, salaried, single, titled pastor' yet. Can you provide a verse for this old guy. Appreciate it.

You mentioned the poor pastor with all his bills and family. Acts 20 commands him to work a job and support hisself and family and have enough to help the poor. He is not to sponge off of the poor.

 

[Yet]

I just gave some.

I have seen people being specific. Certainly I just was. I hope you never say that again!

Again those verses are dealing with the support of the traveling preachers. Hope you dont say that again. Im smiling. R u?

 

[Yet]

Yet I think you are missing one important point.

The NT focuses on the work of Jesus and the early church, whose mission was to
spread the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth.

This was a new venture, a new belief system (actually it was an old belief system turned
the right way around but people didn't understand that).

The early church had a humongous task of teaching people what the OT was really about and
how Jesus fulfilled it. God chose specific people to conduct this task, to spread this new
belief system. Those people by default could not stay in one place they were tasked with
the spreading of the gospel.

The NT early churches represent a model, a programme if you like for establishing Christianity.
We would call it church planting. But each church does need leadership.

I agree that for one person to have ultimate control, is probably not a good idea, that's where
cults spring from. But ive never been to a church where this was the set up in the UK.


Maybe you just need to put the bad experiences behind you, find a church you are
comfortable with, get on with your life and let the matter drop.

It seems to have become a bit of an obsession. Who knows maybe God wants you to be
an intinerant preacher, but one with a single message of "down with all other preachers" isn't
going to do a good job of spreading the gospel. Just saying.

ps maybe if you ever feel the need to actually spread the gospel, you could play on the
fact that you look like Captain Pickard from Star Trek. Shave the beard, get a red jumper
and it would go down a storm

Thanks for your kind response. But my bad experiences does not negate the fact that the modern 'church' is flipped on it's head. The chapters i refer to are important and should not be dismissed out of hand just because we have been doing 'church' the wrong way for about 1700 years now. I believe God knows what's best for our relationship and assembly as believers. The traditions of men have long ago taken over and you know what Jesus said about that. They make His word of 'none effect'. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Yet]

Did you while working for a company insist you had to be paid for your works? Or did you work your whole live for companies without being paid?

Is it fair to insist Pastors work for free just because you want it that way? Where is you Love for God? Where is your Love for others?

It sounds like everything revolves around you.

Everything should resolve around the word of God, not me, nor should everything resolve around the Executive one man show Pastor, but it does, leaving Christ outside the door knocking.

Show us a verse or two proving me wrong. Not just 'church speak' but some scripture.

 

[Yet]

Here is a record from Acts 5 after many signs and wonders were wrought among the people which resulted in the apostles being imprisoned, the angel of the Lord opening the doors of the prison, and the apostles going back to the temple to teach the people

The apostles were brought before the high priest, the captain of the temple, and the chief priests. The pharisee, Gamaliel (who taught Paul), encouraged the council to let the apostles go:

Acts 5:

39 And now I (Gamaliel) say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

The apostles taught and preached Jesus Christ in the temple and in every house.



Here is discussion among the disciples concerning whether a secular job should be continued while one is involved in full time ministering to God's people:

Acts 6:

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.


The result of this decision ---


7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Sripture interprets scripture. Acts 20 the elders were told to work jobs. That takes care of it.

So a couple of them say 'hey, you guys wait on tables for no pay, while we study the word for pay.' Sounds reasonable.

 

[Yet]

Brother Yet,

I'm not going to write it out, (it kinda hurts sometimes),

Read it for yourself, thanks,

1 Cor 9:6-14, 9

Yes. Thank you. This was speaking of the itenerent traveling envoys spreading the gospel and shoring up the assemblies established. They had a right to compensation, though Paul even refused that for the most part. The local assembly elders were static, stationary. They were told to serve, not for greedy gain or covetious. In Acts 20 these pastor elders were commanded to work jobs.

 

[Blain]

I must have overlooked it but i haven't seen anyone provide a verse for the 'one, executive, salaried, single, titled pastor' yet. Can you provide a verse for this old guy. Appreciate it.

You mentioned the poor pastor with all his bills and family. Acts 20 commands him to work a job and support hisself and family and have enough to help the poor. He is not to sponge off of the poor.

magenta provided it though you are not likely to find the word pastor in the bible pastor is simply a modern day word for teacher and preacher just as you won't find the word rapture in the bible but the word rapture is a word we use to describe the event. and yes you are absolutely correct the pastor nor anyone is to sponge off the poor. My old stepdad steve was in a high position of the church we went to as a kid back then I couldn't wait for church to be over but he was found guilty of stealing money from the church and from people so I know these kinds of people are real.

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

I'm constantly told i misrepresent God and His word. But no one is specific.

So lets try something simple. I contend that the one exalted, titled, salaried pastor is not biblical.

• Here's everbody's chance to prove me wrong.
• Read the chapters in 1Cor.12, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4 and point out the sermonizing single top pastor.
• and that with the congregation quiet and listening.

We are the temple of God, living sacrifices being built as works in progress like living stones we are the church. The Holy Spirit is the "sermonizing single top Pastor."

 

[Yet]

I actually like this thread..... no arguing for a change.

One thing I'd like to mention. While I do believe the minister is worthy of his hire, I'm concerned at the AMOUNT of his/her hire, as well as the SIZE of the congregation.

IMO, it's wrong to pay a minister an exorbitant salary. It results in promoting competition between ministers, as well as tempting ministers to become hirlings.

Now, don't get upset with me..... mega churches are too big. Believe it or not, the same thing happens between mega churches & small churches as it does between Wal-mart & mom & pop stores. There's not any real growth in the whole church with the additions of mega churches. While they grow, small churches close. Personal ministry as a whole is lost. Instead of down-home atmospheres, it's mostly professional atmospheres with SEVERAL paid positions. While that's not "sinful" per se, what it does do is promote a great deal of hireling problems.

I'm not trying to knock every mega church, for some do an excellent job. But, as we're nearing the end, the bigger the church, the easier it is to "hand over" scores of christians to the Antichrist with false doctrines.

They are worth of double honor indeed. Honor:timees: respect, honor. Opsonion means wages, salary. This word as not used here for good reason. Double honor did not mean 'double wages', whatever that would be.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sripture interprets scripture. Acts 20 the elders were told to work jobs. That takes care of it.

So a couple of them say 'hey, you guys wait on tables for no pay, while we study the word for pay.' Sounds reasonable.

Absolutely no where in Acts 20 does it say that elders were told to get jobs. That's quite the "twist" you put on those verses. Paul simply said that he coveted no one's gold, silver or clothes and while he was amongst the Ephesians that he worked with his own hands to help the weak.

To extrapolate to say that Paul told all of them to get jobs is violating the other scriptures that talk about "having the right to obtain support from those that are being preached to". You are taking an instance where Paul led by example in this case to help the weak and making it a dogmatic doctrine - which doesn't stand up with the other scriptural references.

Not only that but unfortunately you are making it "your ministry" to try to make others see your dogmatic doctrine as truth for all circumstances.

You are judging all leaders with your offense against them and your continuous accusations on all leaders.

I agree that there is some corruption amongst leaders just as there is corruption with those that are in putting all leaders in the same bag as being rotten and ungodly.

I also agree that one man should never have the control in a local assembly. There are leaders that God has appointed to teach us and there are times for all of us to minister to each other. It's NOT either/or - it's both.

We need balance with these kinds of situations and we need to be open to the Holy Spirit in all places.

 

[Grace777x70]

Thats a nice try but it wont wash.,i already addressed that wih the greek for preach which means debate, a dialogue, not a monologue. Read my posts. And Paul was acting as an envoy, a messenger. Preaching the gospel to the folks the great transition from old covenant to new covenant. Not a normal 'church service' as it were.

There is a place for teaching the younger believers but see Ephesians 4. For what purpose was the reason to train up the newbees? To just sit for the next 50 years with their mouths shut while the one and same teacher keeps rattling on sunday after sunday? Give us a verse to support such an MO.

Your Greek for preach was complete nonsense and only showed that your twisting words to get at your pre-conceived accusations against the local church which our Lord Jesus Christ loves and gave His life and shed His blood for.

If you want to see preaching the gospel in action go to Acts 10 and Acts 13. There is a time to answer questions "after" they preach the gospel.

Here is the Greek word for Preaching.

2756. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]κηρύσσω[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]kērussō[/FONT] verb

Proclaim aloud, publicly preach, herald, announce, tell, declare.


Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Zeta-Kappa.