You guys aren't even up to date on what the Pre-trib Rapture theory even traditionally taught! The 1880's British Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger covered extensively the events of the end in the Book of Revelation in connection with the Book of Daniel, and he was on Darby's pre-trib rapture theory.
THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH
- Thread starter DP
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Ezekiel 13 has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, for Paul introduced it as a "Mystery" i.e. something that was previously unknown. You talk about our being gathered to the Lord not being built on the rock of God's word, when it absolutely is. Timing aside, if you read 1 Thes.4:16-18, the scripture states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and both groups will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. So, regardless of the timing of it, the fact that the living will be changed and caught up in the "clouds" to meet the Lord in the "air" is indisputable. That is unless you want to distort the words "clouds" and "air." From there all you have to do is read what Jesus told his disciples about going back to the Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven to prepare those rooms for all believers. Then the Lord says that he is coming back again to take us to the Father's house (not here on earth)so that we could be with him.
I keep challenging you and others to explain to us who those are riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven in Rev.19:14. There is no way around this one. You can't circumvent this scripture and that because in Rev.19:6-8 we have the wedding of the Lamb and the Bride receiving her fine clothing, white and clean and the she is seen following the Lord out of heaven wearing that same white clothing. Also, we have Rev.17:14 telling us that it is the called, chosen and faithful followers who are following Christ out of heaven. But I'm sure that you will find a way to distort all of these, because you can't even read Rev.20:1-3 and understand its literal meaning.
I keep challenging you and others to explain to us who those are riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven in Rev.19:14. There is no way around this one. You can't circumvent this scripture and that because in Rev.19:6-8 we have the wedding of the Lamb and the Bride receiving her fine clothing, white and clean and the she is seen following the Lord out of heaven wearing that same white clothing. Also, we have Rev.17:14 telling us that it is the called, chosen and faithful followers who are following Christ out of heaven. But I'm sure that you will find a way to distort all of these, because you can't even read Rev.20:1-3 and understand its literal meaning.
What you keep failing to understand DP, is that myself and others have not arrived at our conclusion regarding the gathering of the church from the writing's of men, but from scripture. I don't know why you keep bringing this up. One would have to read Darby's theory and adopt it in order to hold to what he taught. Again, your error stems from not understanding God's coming wrath and that believers are not appointed to suffer that wrath. Those who believe that God is going to put His bride through His wrath before He comes for her is not trusting in what Christ did by taking the wrath that we deserve upon himself.
[SUP]
Jesus comes for His Church to the clouds of the sky above the earth:[/SUP]
[SUP]1 Thess.4:17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Jesus comes in His second coming to the earth WITH His Church He will come for seven years earlier:
[SUP]
Rev.19:14 [/SUP]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. KJV
Zech.14:4-5, confirmed in Rev.19:14:
4In that dayHis feetwill standon the Mountof Olives,whichis in frontof Jerusalemon the east;and the Mountof Oliveswill be splitin its middlefrom eastto westby a verylargevalley,so that halfof the mountainwill movetoward the northand the other halftoward the south.5You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!…
Quasar9
[HR][/HR]
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P
What are some of your people, sissys? How about the demeanor of Jesus at Matthew 23:27-36? "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of ded men's bones and all uncleaness. vs28, Even so you too outwardly appear righteoust to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness, vs29, Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! vs33, You serpenst, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?
Hear that "earl?" This is love incarnate talking and your telling me about my demeaner? Good grief, grow up and get into the battle instead of the childish statement of me being drunk under a bridge smoking crack and beating my wife. Btw boy, tell me why you think the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ and not just an angel? In fact, never mind, I will start a thread on this issue.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hear that "earl?" This is love incarnate talking and your telling me about my demeaner? Good grief, grow up and get into the battle instead of the childish statement of me being drunk under a bridge smoking crack and beating my wife. Btw boy, tell me why you think the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ and not just an angel? In fact, never mind, I will start a thread on this issue.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Stop acting like you have any authority to correct anyone.
Your lack of respect to your fellow man is pitiful. How can you possibly be 71, and then attach "credentials" to yourself as if some " learned theological giant" has assisted in producing you,a disgrace to the kingdom?
You can not address a single member, evidently,without some form of belittling or mocking,or name calling.
Even when you are confronted,it does nothing to that disrespectful behavior.
( hard to believe you are still here dumping your foul garbage on the body of Christ.)
There is no doubt your account was created solely to be on this thread to attack me and others.
You take out your childish Saul Alensky character attacks,address our verses,like a NORMAL SANE humanoid,and watch your doctrinal house of cards fall.
(and that,"bluto" or "DP", or whoever you are is a fact)
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The pre-trib rapture of the Church was first taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul in the following link, plus the reply to it. From which there is no option:
The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum
Quasar92
The wedding of the lamb does not take place until after the kingdom is delivered up to the Father and death is destroyed. 1 Cor 15:23-28. It cannot happen before that because the kingdom is not complete.
It only says that the wife is "ready", it doesn't say that the actual wedding takes place here.
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The heavens are opened, but it does not say that Jesus returns to this planet here, that must be assumed.
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It shows a spiritual battle between the seabeast (Roman Empire) and the gospel sword of Jesus.
Notice at the end of the chapter, there is a remnant, (the earth beast).
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These are OT saints who were resurrected with Jesus.
The first resurrection is when Jesus rose, 1 Cor 15:23-24. The second is at His Coming. Will you add more resurrections to the scripture?
Satan was bound and thrown down to the earth from heaven on the Day of Pentecost, (salvation and the kingdom have come, R ch 12)
His chain is (in the context), is only that he cannot deceive Magog to surround Jerusalem until the 1,000 symbolic years are nearing their end.
The 1,000 years are the kingdom age, the church age, the present age.
Jesus rules His kingdom from heaven, through His word, to say that He is on this planet and not in heaven, must be assumed.
Prophecy cannot be interpreted with the allegorical spiritualizing of your above post. There are many errors in it. The following is a brief chronological order of events. Your question regarding those who are riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14, is the Church, all believers, who follow Jesus to the earth in His second coming. Confirming Zech.14:4-5. Fine linen, white and clean is the sign of the righteous acts of the saints, according to Rev.10:8 NIV.
End Times Chronology and the Rapture of the ChurchThe prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:
1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.
2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.
3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.
Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.
4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.
5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.
6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.
7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...
8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.
10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..
11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.
12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.
13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.
14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.
15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.
Quasar92
Brother Popeye,
There is no link,
I stand by what I say,
I cannot take responsibility for what others have said.
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Israel is restored to Jerusalem.
But soon they will be overcome by Iran and it's allies, (the Kings of the East, Magog).
Jerusalem will fall, and then Jesus will come for His people 3 1/2 days later. Just as it says in the story of the 2 witnesses.
Then it is the end of this planet, the fire from heaven.
This will happen soon, we may live to see it.
Is there someone else who is teaching this?
I stand before Jesus and the world, and all men every where, and proclaim with a voice that is heard around the world,
Behold the Bridegroom cometh !
There is no link,
I stand by what I say,
I cannot take responsibility for what others have said.
------
Israel is restored to Jerusalem.
But soon they will be overcome by Iran and it's allies, (the Kings of the East, Magog).
Jerusalem will fall, and then Jesus will come for His people 3 1/2 days later. Just as it says in the story of the 2 witnesses.
Then it is the end of this planet, the fire from heaven.
This will happen soon, we may live to see it.
Is there someone else who is teaching this?
I stand before Jesus and the world, and all men every where, and proclaim with a voice that is heard around the world,
Behold the Bridegroom cometh !
1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24
First resurrection.....Jesus
Second coming....those that are His
Death is destroyed
The kingdom is delivered up to the Father
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You have too many resurrections.
The Rev. is not one continual time line.
Israel and Jerusalem will soon fall to the Kings of the East (Iran and it's allies, Magog),
Jesus will not come until 3 1/2 days AFTER Israel is killed/murdered.
Then this planet is destroyed.
First resurrection.....Jesus
Second coming....those that are His
Death is destroyed
The kingdom is delivered up to the Father
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You have too many resurrections.
The Rev. is not one continual time line.
Israel and Jerusalem will soon fall to the Kings of the East (Iran and it's allies, Magog),
Jesus will not come until 3 1/2 days AFTER Israel is killed/murdered.
Then this planet is destroyed.
Yeah, I'm really tired of that assumption on their part, as though everyone arrived at their conclusion regarding the gathering of the church, by reading Darby. They do the same thing with Calvin, of whom I have also not read anything by. I just don't care to! Did the apostles get together and say "Hey, I hear there is a new book out on the resurrection at the local book store" so that they could go and read it in order to form their conclusions about the resurrection and the living being caught up?
Regarding the scripture that says, "the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but to suit their own desires, they will gather around themselves a great many teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." To put this into perspective for these times, I believe that it is the reading of all of these books and YouTube, websites and seminars, hearsay, etc., (a great many teachers) that is what is being referred to in that scripture. Because those things are just the teachings of other men. We should be sticking to Scripture, which alone is the source of all truth.
Personally, I believe that it is because there is a vail over their spiritual eyes. The topics that are very clear to others, such as salvation by grace through faith, the timing of the gathering of the church, the coming wrath of God, the understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, etc. They don't see those things. Instead, they have us currently living in the millennial period, saved by grace through faith while in the same breath promoting the law as a requirement, putting the entire living church through God's wrath, no literal thousand years and the preterist claim that all end time events have already taken place and many other deceptions.
I suppose that we shouldn't be surprised about all of this, for scripture states that this is the way that it would be in the last days. We have the wheat and weeds, true believers and counterfeits. I have put most of them on ignore so that I don't have to see the distortion of scripture anymore. I am concerned that I have contended for the truth beyond what the Lord would have me go with the same people. I think that it is a disgrace to Jesus for those who expect that God is going to put His bride through His wrath, because it means that they are not recognizing that the wrath that we deserve was placed on Jesus. They don't understand the severity of God's coming wrath and so they distort it, reducing it to something that has taken place in the background of history without anyone noticing.
Scripture states that when Jesus is on earth during his thousand year reign, He will shepherd the nations with a rod of iron. What did the amil's distort that into? They claim that we are currently living in the thousand years, which isn't really a thousand years and instead of ruling on earth, Jesus is ruling from heaven through his saints. That thousand years is supposed to be an age of peace, so that the lion eats straw like the ox and if a little child sticks his hand in a snakes den he will not be harmed at all. But what is the characteristics of their so-called current thousand year reign, ISIS killing all manner of people, Al-Qaida running planes into our buildings, men marrying men and woman marrying women (and people think that this evil is right), no one knows which bathroom to use anymore because judges (and I use that term loosely) have judged in favor of new genders. That does not sound like Christ's millennial reign described in scripture to me. And because of those who make the gathering of the church synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, instead of an imminent return of Christ, their hope is to watch for and make it through the wrath of God. For that must come first before the Lord can return to end the age.
Oye Vey!
Regarding the scripture that says, "the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but to suit their own desires, they will gather around themselves a great many teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." To put this into perspective for these times, I believe that it is the reading of all of these books and YouTube, websites and seminars, hearsay, etc., (a great many teachers) that is what is being referred to in that scripture. Because those things are just the teachings of other men. We should be sticking to Scripture, which alone is the source of all truth.
Personally, I believe that it is because there is a vail over their spiritual eyes. The topics that are very clear to others, such as salvation by grace through faith, the timing of the gathering of the church, the coming wrath of God, the understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, etc. They don't see those things. Instead, they have us currently living in the millennial period, saved by grace through faith while in the same breath promoting the law as a requirement, putting the entire living church through God's wrath, no literal thousand years and the preterist claim that all end time events have already taken place and many other deceptions.
I suppose that we shouldn't be surprised about all of this, for scripture states that this is the way that it would be in the last days. We have the wheat and weeds, true believers and counterfeits. I have put most of them on ignore so that I don't have to see the distortion of scripture anymore. I am concerned that I have contended for the truth beyond what the Lord would have me go with the same people. I think that it is a disgrace to Jesus for those who expect that God is going to put His bride through His wrath, because it means that they are not recognizing that the wrath that we deserve was placed on Jesus. They don't understand the severity of God's coming wrath and so they distort it, reducing it to something that has taken place in the background of history without anyone noticing.
Scripture states that when Jesus is on earth during his thousand year reign, He will shepherd the nations with a rod of iron. What did the amil's distort that into? They claim that we are currently living in the thousand years, which isn't really a thousand years and instead of ruling on earth, Jesus is ruling from heaven through his saints. That thousand years is supposed to be an age of peace, so that the lion eats straw like the ox and if a little child sticks his hand in a snakes den he will not be harmed at all. But what is the characteristics of their so-called current thousand year reign, ISIS killing all manner of people, Al-Qaida running planes into our buildings, men marrying men and woman marrying women (and people think that this evil is right), no one knows which bathroom to use anymore because judges (and I use that term loosely) have judged in favor of new genders. That does not sound like Christ's millennial reign described in scripture to me. And because of those who make the gathering of the church synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, instead of an imminent return of Christ, their hope is to watch for and make it through the wrath of God. For that must come first before the Lord can return to end the age.
Oye Vey!
And what you fail to reakiz al is the fact that your reading into the text of 1 Thessalonians 5:9. The Apostle Paul is expounding on the difference of those that sons of light and day to those who of night and darkness, vs5. Those who are of the light are saved Christians while those of darkness are unsaved. At vs6,7 they the unsaved are asleep and get drunk at night.
Vs8, "But since we are of the day, let us be sober having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, THE HOPE OF SALVATION. Now for vs9 please notice the first word, "FOR" or because God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." Paul is not talking about wrath as having to do with saints, but those who are not saints/saved.
And for further proof of Paul's point look at vs23, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify your entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be "PRESERVED" complete, without blame AT THE COMING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." That word "preserved" means kept, not taken as in the so-called pre-trib advocates claim. Remember, context, context, context.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Vs8, "But since we are of the day, let us be sober having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, THE HOPE OF SALVATION. Now for vs9 please notice the first word, "FOR" or because God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." Paul is not talking about wrath as having to do with saints, but those who are not saints/saved.
And for further proof of Paul's point look at vs23, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify your entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be "PRESERVED" complete, without blame AT THE COMING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." That word "preserved" means kept, not taken as in the so-called pre-trib advocates claim. Remember, context, context, context.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hardly, Jesus comes only ONE TIME to gather His Church, at the END of the tribulation on the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night."
2 Thess 2:1-9
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
The subject? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND... our gathering together unto Him.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul told them to not allow any... man to deceive them, neither by spirit, nor by word, and nor by letter as from us. What did Paul mean by that "nor by letter as from us"?
Some crept in unawares among the Thessalonian Church were spreading lies with letters claimed to have been written by the Apostles, including Paul of course. They were trying to change... this order of Christ's coming and our gathering, so Paul had to explain it to them again.
The phrase "day of Christ" is actually 'day of the Lord' in the NT Greek manuscripts. The Greek word for 'Christ' (Christos) is not... there. The KJV translators added it to this passage. Instead, it is the Greek word 'kurios' which means 'lord'. THAT is the "day" Apostle Paul was speaking of there.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Again, don't let any man deceive you, Paul says. Because that day of Christ (or really "day of the Lord" in the Greek), will not come except two events happen first, 1) a falling away, and 2) the man of sin appears sitting in the temple in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God and exalting himself over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped.
What that clearly shows us is that those 2 events MUST happen PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather us. That means that "man of sin" must be revealed exalting himself as God in Jerusalem. It means the time of great tribulation MUST occur first by that Antichrist.
(Verse 4 always... goes with verse 3 on that subject, the "Who..." is a continuation of the verse 3 subject. Anyone who separates those two verses from each other should be held suspect.)
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
There, Paul had already shown this order of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, but those charlatans who serve the devil had crept in among them and distorted the simple truth of the order of Jesus' return. So Paul went over it again, in more detail this time.
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Something or somebody is withholding that "man of sin" until it's time for him to be revealed in Jerusalem sitting in the temple. Paul does not tell us what it is, nor who it is that is doing the withholding.
However, in Daniel 10 there are descriptions of Archangels like Michael coming to help withhold the symbolic prince of Persia (symbolic name for Satan in that chapter). And per Rev.12:7 forward we know Michael is who will war with Satan in Heaven booting Satan and his angels down to this earth in the last days.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV
That is definitely last day timing, ending the tribulation by Jesus coming to destroy "that Wicked" one, the Antichrist. Did anybody see ANY OTHER TIME OF JESUS' COMING THERE mentioned there by Paul???
NO, because Paul only spoke of a ONE-TIME COMING of our Lord Jesus and our gathering there. Jesus comes ONE TIME ONLY, at the end of the tribulation to destroy "that Wicked" Antichrist and gather His Church, exactly as Apostle Paul said there!
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Angels are dressed in white also...
John 20:11-12
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
KJV
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV
The Scriptures says Jesus returns with His angels...
2 Thess 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 13:41
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
KJV
All those above verses make it clear who those in white linen are in Rev.19 coming with Jesus. It's the angels of Heaven.
You would think those on Pre-trib rapture theories would have already read and remembered those above Scriptures, but we must remember what some of them have also declared, i.e., the LIE that ONLY Paul's Epistles are written for the Church. That keeps them away from reading those kind of Scriptures above that I quoted.
John 20:11-12
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
KJV
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV
The Scriptures says Jesus returns with His angels...
2 Thess 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 13:41
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
KJV
All those above verses make it clear who those in white linen are in Rev.19 coming with Jesus. It's the angels of Heaven.
You would think those on Pre-trib rapture theories would have already read and remembered those above Scriptures, but we must remember what some of them have also declared, i.e., the LIE that ONLY Paul's Epistles are written for the Church. That keeps them away from reading those kind of Scriptures above that I quoted.
The very next prophetic event to happen is a short time of war in order to introduce the Antichrist to the world, and then another temple will be built in Jerusalem to fulfill 2 Thess.2:3-4, Rev.11:1-2, Rev.13:11 forward, Matt.24:23-26, Daniel 9:27 and Dan.11 about the "vile person" ending sacrifices and the oblation, etc.
All of Christ's Church on earth will go through the time of great tribulation Jesus taught in Matt.24 and Mark 13. At the end of the tribulation like Jesus said in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, He will send His angels to gather His elect, both the asleep saints from Heaven that have already died, and then His saints that are still alive at His coming. Thus 1 Thess.4 is hard-linked to Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.
In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul made it emphatic that a falling away and the "man of sin" (Antichrist) MUST first be revealed, sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, playing God. Paul said all that MUST happen first before Christ's coming and gathering of the Church. Those who try to reverse that order Paul gave are telling a LIE.
In Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, called Jesus' Olivet Discourse because He was upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem with His disciples, He was covering the 7 SIGNS of the end of this world which are broken down into 21 events in His Book of Revelation. And WHO did our Lord Jesus give His Book of Revelation to??? To the seven CHURCHES in Asia (Asia Minor). That means the Matthew, Mark, and Luke Scriptures about the END were written for Christ's CHURCH. Those who go against that are trying to hide it from you.
The tribulation was specifically what Apostle Paul was revealing in the 2 Thess.2 Chapter when he had to remind the Thessalonians of the true order of events for Christ's coming to gather the Church. When the Antichrist ("man of sin", "son of perdition", "that Wicked") comes to play God sitting in a temple in Jerusalem, that is... the great tribulation timing!!! Paul shows Antichrist must do his thing before Jesus comes to gather us.
John in Rev.4:1-2 is NOT being used as symbolic for a rapture of the Church. That is only men's silly speculation expanded from their false pre-trib rapture theory. Isaiah in Isaiah 6 was in the Heavenly by vision, and saw God on His Throne. Did that mean Isaiah was raptured? No. In Rev.1 Apostle John was on the Isle of Patmos in PRISON. His flesh body didn't have to leave his prison cell to experience God's Hand upon him to give him His Revelation by vision. These pre-trib doctors you can easily tell they do not understand Revelation at all, God didn't give to them.
At Rev.16:15, on the 6th Vial, Jesus is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief". He tells them to keep their garments lest they appear in shame. And the very next event is His gathering of the armies of His enemies for the battle of Armageddon on the final 7th Vial. This means His coming "as a thief" does not occur until that final 7th Vial when Armageddon happens. It means we are still here... on earth, up to the time of Armageddon!!!
All of Christ's Church on earth will go through the time of great tribulation Jesus taught in Matt.24 and Mark 13. At the end of the tribulation like Jesus said in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, He will send His angels to gather His elect, both the asleep saints from Heaven that have already died, and then His saints that are still alive at His coming. Thus 1 Thess.4 is hard-linked to Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.
In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul made it emphatic that a falling away and the "man of sin" (Antichrist) MUST first be revealed, sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, playing God. Paul said all that MUST happen first before Christ's coming and gathering of the Church. Those who try to reverse that order Paul gave are telling a LIE.
In Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, called Jesus' Olivet Discourse because He was upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem with His disciples, He was covering the 7 SIGNS of the end of this world which are broken down into 21 events in His Book of Revelation. And WHO did our Lord Jesus give His Book of Revelation to??? To the seven CHURCHES in Asia (Asia Minor). That means the Matthew, Mark, and Luke Scriptures about the END were written for Christ's CHURCH. Those who go against that are trying to hide it from you.
The tribulation was specifically what Apostle Paul was revealing in the 2 Thess.2 Chapter when he had to remind the Thessalonians of the true order of events for Christ's coming to gather the Church. When the Antichrist ("man of sin", "son of perdition", "that Wicked") comes to play God sitting in a temple in Jerusalem, that is... the great tribulation timing!!! Paul shows Antichrist must do his thing before Jesus comes to gather us.
John in Rev.4:1-2 is NOT being used as symbolic for a rapture of the Church. That is only men's silly speculation expanded from their false pre-trib rapture theory. Isaiah in Isaiah 6 was in the Heavenly by vision, and saw God on His Throne. Did that mean Isaiah was raptured? No. In Rev.1 Apostle John was on the Isle of Patmos in PRISON. His flesh body didn't have to leave his prison cell to experience God's Hand upon him to give him His Revelation by vision. These pre-trib doctors you can easily tell they do not understand Revelation at all, God didn't give to them.
At Rev.16:15, on the 6th Vial, Jesus is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief". He tells them to keep their garments lest they appear in shame. And the very next event is His gathering of the armies of His enemies for the battle of Armageddon on the final 7th Vial. This means His coming "as a thief" does not occur until that final 7th Vial when Armageddon happens. It means we are still here... on earth, up to the time of Armageddon!!!