So what about the fourth commandment?

prove-all · Sep 3, 2016

The Voice

GENESIS 26
[3]Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee,
and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH
WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father;

[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed
all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

[5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge,
MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Abraham was observing to keep Gods 10 commandments
He heard and obeyed Gods "voice".

DEUT. 27
[8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly.

[9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed,
and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God .

[10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and
DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

The voice

DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire:
ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
[13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM,
EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

ZEPHANIAH 3
[1] Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city!
[2] SHE OBEYED NOT THE VOICE; she received not correction; she trusted not in the
LORD; she drew not near to her God. [3] Her princes within her are ROARING LIONS;
her judges are evening WOLVES; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow.
[4] Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary,
THEY HAVE DONE VIOLENCE TO THE LAW.

JOHN 10
[27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Also Gods sheep shall also hear His “voice”.

HEBREWS 4 [6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they
to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time;
as it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, harden not your hearts.

This was prophecied to happen.

DEUTERONOMY 4
[26] I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish
from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days
upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

[27] And THE LORD SHALL SCATTER YOU AMONG THE NATIONS, and ye shall
be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

[28] And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone,
which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

[29] But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

[30] When thou art in TRIBULATION, and all these things are come upon thee,
even in THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be OBEDIENT UNTO HIS VOICE;

[31] (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither
destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Grace777x70 · Sep 3, 2016

prove-all said:

what was the the certificate of debt?

the handwriting of requirements

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,

which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross".

the last chapter of the last book of the Bible teaches:

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to
the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14).

Since it is only "those who do His commandments...{who} have the right
to enter...the city" , the ten commandments could not be "contrary to us."

Actually, it is only those who will not keep the ten commandments that are denied access.
Revelation specifically shows that those who break one of at least four of
the ten commandments will be outside God's city (Revelation 22:15).

the ten commandments were not "nailed to the cross," what was?
Look again at what the Bible actually says (two translations):

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,
which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NKJV)

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us,
which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross.. (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances)
or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the stake, which some call a cross

Which requirements were wiped out?

the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin)
is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay

--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through
the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out
("the handwriting of requirements").

But only the penalty, not the law!

Even some Protestant commentators realize this is so.
Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us
a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14),
which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is
the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one
who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary
to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin.

This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us,
Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition,
Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

In addition, let us look at the Greek term exaleipho translated as "wiped out" in Colossians 2:14:

NT:1813
exaleipho (ex-al-i'-fo); from NT:1537 and NT:218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin) (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance
with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International
Bible Translators, Inc.)

In other words, exaleipho has to do with wiping out sin. This is also confirmed in Acts 3:19
where Peter also uses the term exaleipho, which is translated as "blotted out" below:

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Hence, it is sin and the related penalties that are to be blotted or wiped out.
And the penalties could vary from "being unclean to the evening" (Leviticus 11:24-28)
to making an offering (Leviticus 5:5-6) to being "cut off from his people" (Leviticus 7:27)
to the death penalty (Exodus 31:14).

This is also confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament:

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us
(Galatians 3:13). The curse of the law is related to the penalty. And Jesus paid it.

But what about the law of God? Was the law of God to be wiped out? No:

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (Matthew 5:17)

While some erroneously think that Jesus, for example, did away with the Ten Commandments
by how He led His life, that most certainly was not the view of the early Christians who
continued to keep them[Paul included]

Furthermore, remember that the Bible clearly teaches that sin is lawlessness:

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that
He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:4-5).

Notice that Paul wrote:

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!
How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:1-2).

Thus the New Testament makes clear that the law of God continues,
thus it was not nailed to the cross or somehow wiped out.

The Bible, however, also shows that the requirements of the Levitical priesthood
(Hebrews 9:1,6-10) sometimes called the law, which were part of the penalty of sin,
were blotted out.

And why?

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus
once for all" (Hebrews 10:4,10).

Jesus' one sacrifice was and is sufficient--we do not have to sacrifice animals any more!

Another requirement (which is related) would be the death penalty of sin,
as "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
(Romans 6:23) or other specific ceremonial penalties associated with the Old Testament
statutes (such as making a sin offering, being put outside the camp, or washing).

It is very obvious that Paul in Col 2 was talking about the whole Law - I know law-keepers try to partial out the Law to make it "appear" that they are actually doing it but James says if you break on law - you are guilty of it all.

The Sabbath was included in the decrees stated in Col.2:14 because Paul used the term "therefore" in verse 16 which connects the Sabbath and festival days, and eating things tied into what was nailed to the cross of Jesus.

Likewise, the Sabbath and the other four things listed in Colossians 2:16 were shadows of New Testament realities.

Grace777x70 · Sep 3, 2016

prove-all said:

The Voice of God in the New Covenant is this: God "after" He spoke to the fathers in many ways and portions has in these last days spoken to us by His Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Have you ever read where on the mount of transfiguration that Peter wanted to build 3 tabernacles when Moses who was the Law-giver and Elijah who was the law-restorer to Israel. When Peter tried to make the Law and the prophets on equal footing with the Lord Jesus Christ. The Father spoke and said "This is my beloved Son - Hear Him!"

Christ is the end of all things concerning the Law for righteousness. The law was a mere shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself.

The law is NOT of faith. The law did it's purpose and brought us to Christ and now we Christians have died to the law SO THAT we can be joined to another - Christ Himself.

The Old Covenant is obsolete. Come into the New Covenant for that is where Christ Himself is.

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I cannot say that it is a sin, I just know that I want to please God by being obedient.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, “Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Folks like to say that Paul wrote that the Law was abolished, and yet Paul himself followed the Law.

Acts 18:21 - but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing."

Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of god, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

Dan_473 · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

I totally want to please God by being obedient, too!

does God say the same thing to every person, throughout all time?

"As the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear his voice..."

"God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son."

beta · Sep 3, 2016

Dan_473 said:

With all due repect, you seem to assume that anyone who calls him/herself a Christian has the Holy Spirit. There is nothing 'automatic' about that.....it's not a given. It is those who 'obey God and Christ Heb 5v8,9 who are given it Acts 5v32, and not those who just use the name of God or Christ.
Besides , there are several 'IF's' in your post indicating that nothing is as straight forward as people assume.

prove-all · Sep 3, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

the Jewish Sabbath ? where do you read that in the bible?

are they not the Lords Sabbaths and the oracles of God

This is he[Christ], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel
which spake to him in [the mount Sina], and with our fathers:

who received the lively oracles [ to give unto us ] Acts 7:38

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need
that one teach you again which be the first principles of

[the oracles of God]; and are become such as have
need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hebrews 5:12

If any man speak, let him speak as [the oracles of God];
if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ,
to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:11

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way:chiefly, because that unto them

were committed [the oracles of God]. Romans 3:2

Grace777x70 · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

Thank you for your answer.

I can understand where you are coming from. You are "observing" a Law of Moses because you think it's being obedient. That is a common belief however when one reads the New Covenant - I believe they will come away with the understanding that Christ is all things to us now and He Himself has fulfilled all the Law and we are in fact dead to the Law.

I have to ask you this question - seeing that you want to be obedient. Would you stone your child for being disobedient to you as the Law of Moses says to do? Of course we all know the answer. There are literally hundreds of questions one could ask in relation to "being obedient" to the Law of Moses.

Someone great then the physical day of the Sabbath as revealed in the Law of Moses is here now and we are in Him.

Have you ever read where Jesus was talking to the law-keepers of His day and He said to them :

Matthew 12:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

How did the priests not be guilty of breaking the Sabbath even though they did in fact break the actual Sabbath? They were exempt from the Law of the Sabbath because they were in the temple - we too being Christians are in fact in the temple of God so we are exempt from breaking the Sabbath.

We live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus now and that life of Christ which is manifested by the leading of the Holy Spirit will direct our lives to that which is profitable and good for us to do now.

( I say this because of fleshly minded Judaizers which will say "''so I suppose because you are in the "temple of God" you can murder all you want now "" )

Anyway I respect your choice to "observe" the Sabbath or any other days or festivals or new moons or anything you do or don't want to eat.

Bless you!

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

Dan_473 said:

I agree, but the problem lies in that The Son didn't speak of doing away with obedience to God's commandments. In fact He said that He didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill. And how did He "fulfill" them? He EXPANDED them.

Don't murder became don't even hold anger against someone.
Don't commit adultery became don't even look at a woman with lust, ect.

Dan_473 · Sep 3, 2016

beta said:

we might be getting somewhere here in understanding each other.

Do you believe there are people who have been born again but who don't have the Holy Spirit?

yes, it is very much an "if" situation

"if
you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Grace777x70 · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

Paul said that we Christians are dead to the Law - not that the Law was dead itself.

There is no mention of feasts in Acts 18:21 - that is from the KJV which has different manuscripts then most translations. This particular verse is not in most scriptures. This could mean ( even if it was true of which we don't know for sure ) that Paul simply wanted a chance to preach Christ to the people coming to the feast so in order to do that - he had to go to Jerusalem at feast time.

Acts 18:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] but taking leave of them and saying, "I will return to you again if God wills," he set sail from Ephesus.

Paul did "believe" in all things in the Law. He believed that Jesus fulfilled the whole Law and that is the reason why he said those things about the Law.

To show you that Paul didn't believe in the "actual practice" of the Law but that it was fulfilled in Christ - he had this to say about "circumcision" which is a part of the Law. Remember you can't partial out the Law you break one - you are guilty of it all.

Galatians 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage

.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

And Romans 2 says that it is the ones that do the whole Law that are justified ( declared righteous ) and no one does that.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

If you or others want to depend on your law keeping to justify yourselves before God - be my guest. I will receive by faith the gift of righteousness and the abundance of grace from the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:17

Dan_473 · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

you do agree, then, that God has the power to make alterations in how the law is to be kept?

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

Dan_473 said:

I've said that from the very beginning of this thread, specifically that Jesus fulfilled the Law for us, but that the Ten Commandments are still binding today.

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

Grace 777x70's comments are in quotation marks and italicized (and taken out of BOLD PRINT):

"There is no mention of feasts in Acts 18:21 - that is from the KJV which has different manuscripts then most translations. This particular verse is not in most scriptures. This could mean ( even if it was true of which we don't know for sure ) that Paul simply wanted a chance to preach Christ to the people coming to the feast so in order to do that - he had to go to Jerusalem at feast time".

I'll not start another subject (manuscripts/textural criticism) in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread and I'll go there with you.

"To show you that Paul didn't believe in the "actual practice" of the Law but that it was fulfilled in Christ - he had this to say about "circumcision" which is a part of the Law. Remember you can't partial out the Law you break one - you are guilty of it all.

Galatians 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

Yes, but Paul did have Timothy circumcised. - "Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek". - Acts 16:3".

As far as Paul believing but not practicing there's this in Acts 21 :

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. And Paul took part in the ceremony with those men. Sounds to me Paul followed the Law.

You seem to be saying that one may "believe" in Jesus and not do what He said. I don't see how that's possible.

"If you or others want to depend on your law keeping to justify yourselves before God - be my guest. I will receive by faith the gift of righteousness and the abundance of grace from the Lord Jesus Christ".

I have never said (nor can I remember anyone in this tread saying so either) that anyone is "justified" by keeping the Sabbath. I have commented on this over and over and folks still can't seem to comprehend that I'm NOT talking about being Torah observant or keeping The Law. I'm talking about being obedient to God's Ten Commandments, SPOKEN by His voice to the people and written with His own finger. NOT The Law as written by Moses in his handwriting.

LaurenTM · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

let's remind you of what you ACTUALLY said, which by the way, engendered my response to you

Apparently, you not only do not understand, you are also suffering from memory loss

you can favor chocolate chips on your steak...I don't care

however, you are not expressing your opinion when you say things as you did, which I have in quotes above

you are saying if we do not keep what YOU and others LIKE you say we should keep, we are like children

and who does that make you? big daddy of the internet Bible chiefs?

so, mr mayo, hold the mayo...it's only your opinion after all!

LaurenTM · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

and you CANNOT keep them!

that is what I posted earlier when you made the same type of comment

your Sabbath keeping opinion is a different post

you are like the others here with their choices of what they will keep, what they want to keep and what they can keep

you are like someone picking over a plate of appetizers

and yummy, the ones over there look good but have too many calories, so I'll just eat a few of these

Sabbath appetizers with the 10 commandments for the main course

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

LaurenTM said:

WOW! That was the best display of mental gymnastics I've seen lately. LOVE the way you injected "salvation" into my comment. Bravo.

Officermayo · Sep 3, 2016

LaurenTM said:

Uh, this thread is called "So What About The Fourth Commandment", isn't it? That's the one about the Sabbath, right?

I must be some kind of superhero in that I have no problem whatsoever in keeping the Big Ten (sarcasm alert).

Dan_473 · Sep 3, 2016

Officermayo said:

right! binding in whatever way God says each one is to be kept today, which might be different from one person to the next.

So what about the fourth commandment?

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