The King James Only Debate

[Agricola]

from Strongs 4704:

to use speed, i.e. to make effort, be prompt or earnest:--do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.


2 Timothy 2:

[SUP]15[/SUP] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


This is actually a very good example of how the translators knew what word to use. While the 'core' definition of the Greek word that 'Study' came from in this verse is describing 'effort' rather than 'action', the reason the translators used the word 'Study' comes from the context of the verse - based on the phrase 'rightly dividing the word of truth'. The word 'Study' best describes the 'type' of effort that is made - and is required - in 'rightly dividing the word of truth'.

"Context, context, context..."
.....
.

Due to the context of the verse, the word 'Study' is precisely the right word to use...

That list after the definition you referred to is not part of the definition, that is simply the word usage as found for that greek word that the translators made. I have looked in a number of publications and no where does it list spoudazó to mean Study. The King James usage is inaccurate.

One thing King James Only cult does not do is read things in context, its far more convenient to cherry pick single verses, we see that all the time on this thread, for example context of "son of the gods" context is a quote from a pagan ruler who had no idea of correct terms or names and just saw what he did.

When using verses in context you read that verse along with surrounding verses and chapters. Making the word fit so the verse seems to read right is not translating into context. In case of Timothy 2:15 Study may seem to fit,.but the other translation is better. Here is whole of Timothy from NIV. read in context, it fits and is not a bible issue. If anything King James translators messed up.

[h=3]The Appeal Renewed[/h]2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Similarly, anyone who competes as an athlete does not receive the victor’s crown except by competing according to the rules. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, [SUP]9 [/SUP]for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

[h=3]Dealing With False Teachers[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

[SUP]20 [/SUP]In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[trofimus]

I am going to take a pause from this topic.

Its obvious there are many errors, contradictions and not precise translations in the KJV Bible.

There are 3 or 4 people who believe their printed Bible is perfect and without any error and they will believe it always, until God will help them change it.

For us, their explanations are not explanation at all, for them these are fully satisfying.

It is not a salvation issue and "information" only will not change these proponents, so for now I dont see any meaning in continuing of this debate.

I will return later, maybe

 

[KJV1611]

I am Bible only, I believe everything Bible says. So I believe also in that we must not be lazy servants and that my faith must be visible on my deeds.

Which bible do you believe? One bible says to study to show yourself approved unto God. Another bible says Do your best to present yourself to God.

One bible supports works (doing your best) to be approved and the other has nothing to do with works. Which bible is true?

Edit: This is why I call the newer translations Antichrist bibles. They are against the finished work of Christ and put people back under the bondage of the law.

 

[KJV1611]

So how many leopards have wings? How many fowls have four wings?

​

Dan 7:6
After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
KJV​

"After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.”
NIV​

How many insects have four wings?

Now the scholars admit they changed 'fowls' in Leviticus 11:20 because it everyone who wasn't just pure stupid knows that there has never been nor is there any bird that literally moves upon the ground using all four. So why didn't they change bird in Dan 7:6 to insect?


Leviticus 11:20
“All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.”
KJV
"'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.”
NIV


"O ye of widsom"​

They made those changes and hundreds of other changes like that because they have NO IDEA what God's intention for those verses were. They didn't understand the symbology behinds wings, fowls or creeping things nor did they understand bible numbers. This alone is proof that the translators are not inspired and they are at best giving it their best shot.

Basically they prove that NO MAN is capable of translating God's word without the inspiration of God.

 

[KJV1611]

Act 12:4
And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him
to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

in this text in the KJV the word.. is actually


πάσχα


pascha


pas'-khah




Of Chaldee origin (compare [
H6453]); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it): - Easter, Passover.



　
yet it is translated as easter, clearly this term was NOT what the language in the Koine greek uses in the septiugent and this is the ONLY place that word easter (which is actually the name of a pagan goddess of fertility) is used in all the biblical text in the KJV... if the KJV is infallible as you misstakenl;y claim why do we find this, I'm curious exactly how you in tend to explain this one away.... seems even the face if direct evidence you still will not admit the fallability of the text despite you false claim.

Easter is the only correct word for that instance of pascha because it is the only time in the bible that pascha is used AFTER passover had been fulfilled. Easter is the fulfillment of passover. In that verse passover had already been fulfilled and the KJV translators rightly termed it as Easter because Christians celebrate Easter not Passover.

Edit: It makes you wonder why the newer version translators didn't catch that and translate it as Easter also. I believe that it points to divine inspiration.... not proof on it's on, but one of many many things in the KJV that point to inspiration.

 

[KJV1611]

That list after the definition you referred to is not part of the definition, that is simply the word usage as found for that greek word that the translators made. I have looked in a number of publications and no where does it list spoudazó to mean Study. The King James usage is inaccurate.

And here lies the problem with trying to use a dictionary to understand an ancient dead language. The whole meaning of the verse is completed lost and turned into works by translating word for word instead of translating the meaning of the entire passage.

 

[KJV1611]

That list after the definition you referred to is not part of the definition, that is simply the word usage as found for that greek word that the translators made. I have looked in a number of publications and no where does it list spoudazó to mean Study. The King James usage is inaccurate.

One thing King James Only cult does not do is read things in context, its far more convenient to cherry pick single verses, we see that all the time on this thread, for example context of "son of the gods" context is a quote from a pagan ruler who had no idea of correct terms or names and just saw what he did.

When using verses in context you read that verse along with surrounding verses and chapters. Making the word fit so the verse seems to read right is not translating into context. In case of Timothy 2:15 Study may seem to fit,.but the other translation is better. Here is whole of Timothy from NIV. read in context, it fits and is not a bible issue. If anything King James translators messed up.

The Appeal Renewed

2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Similarly, anyone who competes as an athlete does not receive the victor’s crown except by competing according to the rules. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, [SUP]9 [/SUP]for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Dealing With False Teachers

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

[SUP]20 [/SUP]In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

We don't do our best to be approved by God and 2 Timothy 2 doesn't teach that in any way shape or form.

 

[GaryA]

Easter is the only correct word for that instance of pascha because it is the only time in the bible that pascha is used AFTER passover had been fulfilled. Easter is the fulfillment of passover. In that verse passover had already been fulfilled and the KJV translators rightly termed it as Easter because Christians celebrate Easter not Passover.

Edit: It makes you wonder why the newer version translators didn't catch that and translate it as Easter also. I believe that it points to divine inspiration.... not proof on it's on, but one of many many things in the KJV that point to inspiration.

Easter is not the 'fulfillment' of passover. Easter was a pagan holiday / celebration that occurred every year around-and-about-the-time of the passover. The translators of the KJV understood this. They knew - because of the passover-related timing illustrated in the passage - that what [ Herod ] was talking about was the pagan holiday / celebration - and not the [ Jewish ] passover.

The early Christian Jews did not celebrate 'Easter', as it was pagan...

Apparently, somewhere along the way - probably due to someone purposely promoting the misinterpretation of this verse - 'Easter' became associated with passover ( Perhaps Constantine was the one who "poured concrete around it"...? ) -- and hence -- today, we honor a Christian-based event using the name of a pagan holiday / celebration... ( "Go figure..." )

 

[KJV1611]

Easter is not the 'fulfillment' of passover. Easter was a pagan holiday / celebration that occurred every year around-and-about-the-time of the passover. The translators of the KJV understood this. They knew - because of the passover-related timing illustrated in the passage - that what [ Herod ] was talking about was the pagan holiday / celebration - and not the [ Jewish ] passover.

The early Christian Jews did not celebrate 'Easter', as it was pagan...

Apparently, somewhere along the way - probably due to someone purposely promoting the misinterpretation of this verse - 'Easter' became associated with passover ( Perhaps Constantine was the one who "poured concrete around it"...? ) -- and hence -- today, we honor a Christian-based event using the name of a pagan holiday / celebration... ( "Go figure..." )

When Jesus was crucified as the passover lamb and then rose from the dead and applied his blood to my door post, what did he fufill?

 

[GaryA]

When Jesus was crucified as the passover lamb and then rose from the dead and applied his blood to my door post, what did he fufill?

"It wasn't Easter - I can promise you that..."

 

[KJV1611]

"It wasn't Easter - I can promise you that..."

Well if it's not Easter to you then what do you call the death burial and resurrection of Christ?

 

[GaryA]

What I am saying is -- originally, 'Easter' was a pagan holiday / celebration, and was not associated with the passover; rather, it became associated with it ( erroneously ) at a later time...

 

[KJV1611]

What I am saying is -- originally, 'Easter' was a pagan holiday / celebration, and was not associated with the passover; rather, it became associated with it ( erroneously ) at a later time...

Well you may not call it Easter but the rest of the Christian world does. There is no other name for it that I know of. Stop believing conspiracy theories and put your faith in the inerrant word.

 

[GaryA]

Well if it's not Easter to you then what do you call the death burial and resurrection of Christ?

Unfortunately, I sometimes refer to the [ modern ] holiday / celebration as 'Easter' ( for obvious reasons ) -- but, I know the real history -- and calling the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ 'Easter' is actually incorrect according to that history. And, the Lord is probably very disappointed that we use the name of a pagan 'festival' in association with his death, burial, and resurrection. But then, most Christians are completely unaware of the history...

A similar thing exists with 'Christmas' -- which is not actually the time of the birth of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

Well you may not call it Easter but the rest of the Christian world does. There is no other name for it that I know of. Stop believing conspiracy theories and put your faith in the inerrant word.

"You are not understanding the inerrant word..."

The word 'Easter' was used in that verse of scripture because it was not talking about the passover; rather, it was referring to a pagan holiday / celebration / festival that was to take place [ soon ] after the passover. It had absolutely nothing to do with the passover.

What we call 'Easter' today is actually an incorrect name for it.

We know what it is; however, we are using the wrong name...

 

[GaryA]

What we call 'Easter' today is actually an incorrect name for it.

"Okay - so - grammatically speaking - I did not say this properly. But, you get what I mean..."

 

[GaryA]

That list after the definition you referred to is not part of the definition, that is simply the word usage as found for that greek word that the translators made.

That is correct; however, it can help the reader to better understand the 'essence' of the meaning of the word in different contexts. That is what it is there for...

 

[GaryA]

from Strongs 4704:

to use speed, i.e. to make effort, be prompt or earnest:--do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

That list after the definition you referred to is not part of the definition, that is simply the word usage as found for that greek word that the translators made.

That is correct; however, it can help the reader to better understand the 'essence' of the meaning of the word in different contexts. That is what it is there for...

For those who may not know what we are talking about --- the actual definition stops at the colon after 'earnest'. The rest of it is there to 'expound' the "sense and tense" of the definition for different contexts the word is or may be used in.

 

[oldethennew]

for us, our peace and comfort and trust is in what Jesus=God=The Holy Spirit teaches us, and so,
we believe and fully trust whatever we are told by the presence of This Holiness, who represents each and
every Word of God that He wants us to learn in order to become whom He desires us to be...

we go where we are led - we read what He tells us to read - we believe what He says -
we obey what He tells us to do...
we don't question His ways or His means for accomplishing this in our lives...
we only Believe and Worship and accept as He desires to lead us, because we know
that His Super-Natural Love is the only thing in this wicked world that is real...

 

[KJV1611]

What I am saying is -- originally, 'Easter' was a pagan holiday / celebration, and was not associated with the passover; rather, it became associated with it ( erroneously ) at a later time...

GaryA is the KJV right in using the word Easter?