They stumbled because they said they could be saved by works and not by faith... that is the stumbling stone.
probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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They stumbled because they said they could be saved by works and not by faith... that is the stumbling stone.
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
perhaps I could have been more clear in the op
my apologies for any confusion caused by that.
the weakness is in the
discussion of
the
practices of
roots folks.
in other words, and in my experience, if the discussion is focused on the
theory
of law keeping, the thread will spin on indefinitely.
if the discussion is focused on the
practice
of law keeping, the thread will often terminate a lot more quickly.
D
dannyboy7603
Guest
Yet faith without works is .... Faith and works go hand in hand.
I've often wondered how people would interpret Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy..."
I've often wondered how people would interpret Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy..."
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
There is a whole thread that deals with Hebrews 10 and also Hebrews 6 as well. It has a few views on the subject which may help you to see what is really being said in Hebrews as you listen to the Holy Spirit within you reveal Christ to you.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Romans 3:31
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:8
In summary Paul is saying faith is credited to us as righteousness, and through
love working in our hearts we fulfill the law.
We are no longer subject to the law as it has found its fulfillment in us, as we
are no longer law breakers.
What is being argued is we are continual rule breakers so sinners every day
and there is no freedom from this.
The problem with this argument is you need to become specific and work through
how love transforms us to change the heart and ones behaviour.
Our failure is because we are not learning and putting into practice the way of
Spirit, but continue to live in old selves and submit to its inspiration.
Jesus is building our new selves through the word, our minds, our obedience,
our worship and communion with Him.
Romans 3:31
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:8
In summary Paul is saying faith is credited to us as righteousness, and through
love working in our hearts we fulfill the law.
We are no longer subject to the law as it has found its fulfillment in us, as we
are no longer law breakers.
What is being argued is we are continual rule breakers so sinners every day
and there is no freedom from this.
The problem with this argument is you need to become specific and work through
how love transforms us to change the heart and ones behaviour.
Our failure is because we are not learning and putting into practice the way of
Spirit, but continue to live in old selves and submit to its inspiration.
Jesus is building our new selves through the word, our minds, our obedience,
our worship and communion with Him.
myself, I don't think the law is hard to understand.
I think that there is wide variation in how each individual will apply it...
for example,
one person will use electricity on the Sabbath, but otherwise have a quiet day at home or at a fellowship.
another might decide not to use electricity because it would require the power plant worker to break the Sabbath.
a third might use electricity and go hang gliding, because that's the most restful thing they can think of to do on the Sabbath.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Jgig.. The more you post, the more you create a new theology that ignores scripture.
You say things like :"The Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ does not point to the Melchizedek priesthood; the Melchizedek priesthood was a shadow of the Reality in Christ to come."
Ignoring verses like Hebrews 7:14**For it is evident that our Master sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
*15**And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
*16**Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
*17**For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Which shows the Melchizedek priesthood which was held by the patriarchs from Adam to Yahushua has transferred to Yahushua and his Kingdom.
You ask: "Does one live in a blueprint of a house or does one enter into the house once it becomes reality?"
Do you live in the kingdom of Heaven?
You continue:
"Based on what you say, you haven't realized the glory of what and Who Melchizedek pointed to - you're stuck at the road sign instead of entering into Messiah's Rest."
This one sentence proves beyond any doubt you have not spent any time in the study of the Melchizedek priesthood. Or the Millennium. Where the Melchizedek priesthood of King priests runs the temple. This is all through the bible from Genesis to Revelations. Literally.
Revelations 5:10**And hast made us unto our Elohim kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We believers become these priests as Peter told us:
1 Peter 2:**Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to*יהוה*by Yahushua the Messiah.
*6**Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
*7**Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
*8**And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
*9**But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light
Again the royal priest hood. The melich zadik. The sons of zadok. It is all through both testaments.
You go on:
"And let me put your mind to rest regarding your impression that I've not studied these things through. I have. For many years."
I don't know where you studied. But you seem to have missed major portions of the bible by the things you post.
You go on: "And the most amazing thing happened! The wonderful Good News in Christ that God orchestrated from before time became even more clear to me, and how every single false claim made about His Gospel can be easily put to rest by the simplicity that is in Christ:"
Certainly true: three sets of verses in his own voice sum up his message nicely.
Matthew 22;37**Yahushua said unto him, Thou shalt love*יהוה*thy Elohim with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
*38**This is the first and great commandment.
*39**And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
*40**On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The Second:
John 3:16**For*יהוה*so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The third:
John 14:15**If ye love me, keep my commandments.
*16**And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Easy peasy.
"Who Jesus isWhat He came to doWhat that actually accomplished, andWho those who put their trust in Him are in Christ"
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery,*which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28*He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone*fully mature in Christ.*29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (from Col. 1)
HalleluYah. And they bring glory to his name by walking The Way.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
M
MacBestus
Guest
This is a red herring at best. This false Witness and willful maligning of fellow believers is not the a fruit of his spirit. Paul warns not to advance what you think YHWH'S truth to be with a lie. You keep doing this when you constantly state or allude that this is an HRM. Teaching. I guess you believe that this will not be something you will have to answer for when you stand before him. Lying about your brothers.
Melchizedek a "vision from God "and not the actual substance of God who is Eternal Spirit without form . He does have flesh as if he was a man as us. Melchizedek pointed to the eternal priesthood of the Son of God not seen ,revealed by the Son of man of flesh and blood (seen).
This was for a one time outward demonstration of Christ pouring out his Spirit, not seen on the flesh, as that seen showing us His Jewish flesh profited for nothing.
There were no tribes at the time of Melchizedek.
The spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God is not not after the flesh of any man or any tribe that were used as shadows or types until the the time of the reformation.(Jacob's trouble)
*
The eternal priesthood was typified by the patriarchs.not in respect to them.We are not to have the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God in respect to the patriarchs. It is where the unbelieving(no faith) Jew went astray.
Its where our citizenship is as to our new birth rite,.
We do not glory in the flesh of the patriarchs .
Yes as a kingdom of priest after the new reformed order which began at the time of reformation.
Yes we keep His commandments according to the law of faith, by guarding them with all our heart soul and mind. To keep them and be found of one violation is to be guilty of the whole eternal wage .
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F
FreeNChrist
Guest
It is the simple and correct answer to the question on how we interpret the passage. You were nowhere to be found in my thoughts when I wrote it. Which makes your response to it kinda interesting.
yes and no... if the discussion is edifying, then that's great.
if the discussion begins to circle around much the same territory, then not so much.
The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man?
Ecclesiastes 6:11 The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=tit+3&version=NASB
so as long as the controversy is making progress, then great!
M
MacBestus
Guest
These types of questions are really common. This is because of the Pharisees hedge laws added into the law.
These can make Sabbath confusing. It is simple really. The Torah gives instruction. We follow it if it applies to us. We are keeping Torah.
The verses dealing with Sabbath are in Hebrew. So we always want to make sure we understand what they say. English and Hebrew have different numbers of words for work. Work in English can mean anything from a piece of art to practicing (working at it) to what you call your job. Hebrew has more words in this vein. So we need to use the Hebrew concept word for the word translated as work. The main Sabbath commands are in Leviticus 23
Leviticus 23:*3**Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of*יהוה*in all your dwellings.
Here the word work Is: H4399
Original:*מלאכה
Transliteration:*melâ'kâh
Phonetic:*mel-aw-kaw'
BDB Definition:
occupation, professional work, business occupation, business property work (something done or made)workmanship service, business political
Origin: from the same as*H4397
TWOT entry: 1068b
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: From the same as*H4397; properly*deputyship, that is, ministry; generally*employment*(never servile) or work (abstractly or concretely); also*property(as the result of*labor): - business, + cattle, + industrious, occupation, (+ -pied), + officer, thing (made), use, (manner of) work ([-man], -manship).
So we see the work shown here is for profit work.
Easy peasy.
It also specifically does not apply to servile work. Which is why servile work is called out separately for Sabbaths that forbid it as well. In English it reads as a duplicate meaning as work means either servile work or for profit work. That is one of the problems with translations. Which is why we have concordances.
But notice it also says Convocation.
This is from H4744
Original:*מקרא
Transliteration:*miqrâ'
Phonetic:*mik-raw'
BDB Definition:
convocation, convoking, reading, a calling together convocation, sacred assembly convoking reading
Origin: from*H7121
TWOT entry: 2063d
Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine
Strong's Definition: From*H7121; something*called out, that is, a public*meeting(the act, the persons, or the place); also a*rehearsal: -assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
So we are also told that Sabbath should involve gathering together at some designated place to read and practice our faith.
So at its base. Sabbath is very easy to understand. Go to assembly if you can. (If there is one near you) where the scriptures are read. And do not work for profit. And that this is a form of ministry. There are some qualifying verses to make this easier to understand as well.
Such as Exodus 20:*8**Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
*9**Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
*10**But the seventh day is the Sabbath of*יהוה*thy Elohim: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
*11**For in six days*יהוה*made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore*יהוהblessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Here we find that even our personal servants and our children are not to do work for pay. Nor our beasts of burdens Who of course are paid in room and board.
So you can't pay your maids to work in the house. And you cannot even pay allowance for chores to get done by your kids. No problem just hire foreigners. Its not their sabbath right? Wrong. If they are part of your household or household business, even temporarily... No.
Now before we look at the next verse block, let's jump forward to 1 john 5:1**Whosoever believeth that Yahushua is the Messiah is born of*יהוה: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
*2**By this we know that we love the children of*יהוה, when we love*יהוה, and keep his commandments.
*3**For this is the love of*יהוה, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
*4**For whatsoever is born of*יהוה*overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Ok speaks for itself to me. But lets break it down for the sin doctrine crew. If you love Messiah you love His Father. We show our love for Messiah not only by keeping his instruction, but the instruction of his father. His Torah. His law. And they are neither hard or bad or bring grief. And keeping his commands will help us overcome this world. And is part of our faith. And we know what we are told he who overcomes recieves... Eternal reward!
Ok so having read this let us look at the next verse set from Exodus 35:1**And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which*יהוה*hath commanded, that ye should do them.
*2**Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to*יהוה: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
*3**Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings upon the Sabbath day.
In the Hebrew this is all one sentence. And even in the English verse 4 completely changes course. Making this all one thought so so speak
So was YHWH saying you could have fire anywhere except in your house on Sabbath? We should freeze in winter? As lights were all flame based then, were we to sit in the dark inside, but we could have a campfire? What? This is silly.
His commands are not grievous. His burden light. Well kindling fire without matches or lighter can be a chore. As can gathering wood. So this should be done before Sabbath. But is that even what this means? Lets stop looking at this with 21st century eyes for a minute.
Fire was the major power tool of the time. This is speaking of starting a fire for profit generation work.
This was also the main belief of all jews until the Hascidic revolution began in the early 18th century.
The talmud does forbid baking or starting or extinguishing a fire. So they do add a bit. But maintaining a fire was fine and expected unless you had not gathered enough wood. Then you just let it go out on its own.
So even the old Pharisees had no where near the rules that the modern ones do.
So we are to gather on the Sabbath to read and practice worship. We are to rest. And not have anyone else working in our homes or business. And we are not to try and make a profit.
This seems pretty simple.
However helping a neighbor, saving an animal or person, the work of ministers including musicians playing worship music, and national defense all get a bye. Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. His commands are not greivous.
Sabbath should not people in danger. Which means utility companies need to be operating.. For heat and medical and defense and refrigeration. And this is what most Jews believe as well, although some use tradition to try and make it harder than it is. Pharisees again.
Adding laws that are hard to bear.
Messiah expected us to keep Sabbath after he left us the first time. As he told the believers to pray that they would not have to run on Sabbath during the time of Jacobs trouble.
So unless you add to scripture, this is easy peasy.
So to your originally stated examples the person resting and gathering to fellowship on sabbath is keeping it to Torah.
The second person is welcome to not use electricity on Sabbath. But a plant worker keeps explosions, melt downs, electrocutions and fires from happening endangering lives. They also keep medical machines and armies police and fire operating. Again preserving lives. No Torah violation.
Our Hang Glider, so long as he has met his readings and gathering as best as possible to do whatever relaxes him. And Rests his body and mind.
How to keep Torah is not hard if we do not add in extra rules. No ambiguity.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I think some people are confused.
The pharisees looked to mosaic law PLUS all their added laws.. They actually made it harder to keep than the origional law did, because they were more strict.
The mosaic law could not help them obey even if they tried, Because it spoke to the outer sins, not the inner.
The pharisees looked to mosaic law PLUS all their added laws.. They actually made it harder to keep than the origional law did, because they were more strict.
The mosaic law could not help them obey even if they tried, Because it spoke to the outer sins, not the inner.
right, and again, sabbath-keeping isn't confusing...
there's just the possibility of wide variation...
anything that saves lives is allowable... I would assume anything that's good, since it's lawful to do good on the sabbath... anything relaxing...
I think it would be hard to think of an activity that couldn't be put in at least one of those categories.
so, as it looks to me, the important thing from an hrm standpoint is that one agree with sabbath keeping in theory...
what activities one actually does... it doesn't really matter.
M
MacBestus
Guest
You keep quoting paul. Out of context. Rather than just show you how you are out of context in this verse now, I would ask you to address this verse from Peter. I have placed it in here several times. But those taking the sin doctrine side just ignore it. I will show you how you are out of Context in Titus after we remove this verse from disqualifying it, or prove it does disqualify it.
Please then explain how it does not apply to Paul's letters. Or how the Apostle Peter is in the wrong.
2 Peter 3:15**And account that the longsuffering of our Master is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
*16**As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
*17**Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the lawless, fall from your own steadfastness.
Some versions use wicked in v17 instead of lawless. Here is the Greek word just to make sure we are all on the same page.
G113
Original:*ἄθεσμος
Transliteration:*athesmos
Phonetic:*ath'-es-mos
Thayer Definition:
one who breaks through the restraint of God's law and gratifies his lusts
Origin: from*G1*(as a negative particle) and a derivative of*G5087*(in the sense of enacting)
TDNT entry: 03:47,2
Part(s) of speech: Adjective
Strong's Definition: From*G1(as a negative particle) and a derivative of*G5087*(in the sense of*enacting);*lawless, that is, (by implication)*criminal:*- wicked.