Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

wanderer6059 · Dec 14, 2016

Bluto, thank you for your service and sacrifice for this country. i thank you for your concern, and i appreciate it greatly. and yes i have see the bad here, people talking about believing for a new car when the have a good one, saying they are believing in God and not going to take a medication, seeing people try and say "i command you in the name of Jesus to be healed". but i have also see the good. i have see people walk from wheel chairs, i have seen a teacher stop in the middle of his class and say the spirit told me a mom was praying this morning because she lost here job and has no food for her kids, and then he says lets have a collection for her and she can provide for hers." i have seen people go from dead spiritually, with nothing left to live for, come alive in there Righteousness. Bluto i know it all, i read the articles, i resisted God by not going here for 2 years because i said it was just false teaching. Brother, there is truth here. i have seen it, and i can't leave it. i gotta go where He tells me to go, and stay where He tells me to stay.

Billyd · Dec 14, 2016

@wanderer. I am very concerned about the education that you are receiving. Please put that college(?) you are attending in your rear view mirror, and find an accredited christian college that will prepare you for the ministry that God has chosen you for.

wanderer6059 · Dec 14, 2016

Billyd said:

Billy, Its ok, i got to to one is accredited. what the teachers a Rhema teach is spot on people just take it out of context. the only "bad" class i could say there was here, was the finance one... i just ended up calling it story time lol

Stunnedbygrace · Dec 15, 2016

Thank you for hearing me, young man, and changing the tone in your words and heart toward these women our Lord loves.
I do not despise your young age and you do not seem to be presenting quite the same thing I have heard from some preachers that I rejected completely because my Lord and His Spirit seemed nowhere at all in what they said or in their heart. And now that I see you heard and considered what I said about the way you spoke, I believe this was only possible by the Spirit being in your heart. So I am going to read this last longer post of yours and study the scriptures you've given. This will take me at least the morning to do. And when any verses occur to me that are in tension to the ones you've brought up, I will want to ask you how you fit them in, because if there's one thing I refuse to ever do, it's to ignore the verses that are in tension to, because it never increases my understanding to do that. And there are always verses "in tension to" - there never seems to be a lack of them. They must fit in instead of being ignored.

So I'll be back after I have spent some time with this last long post of yours and I have asked God for help and wisdom with this. I'd like to say one thing more. I can imagine that seminary is a bit like in here, where pride leaks into conversation and it becomes debating but without the gentle Spirit guiding us, becoming ugly and arrogant. I can imagine you are sometimes surrounded by that in seminary. But I want to caution you to not let that influence you, but instead, by submission to this gentle Spirit in you, you must influence them by your example. Don't be conformed to their way but stick to the way of the Spirit and then you will be a cause of rejoicing to your Lord instead of a grievance to Him and you will be fit for His use, able to give forth His influence instead of conforming to the ways of the world that are in seminary even. Even in this bible forum, the same thing often happens and even here, we all must strive to walk by the Spirit instead of conforming to the debating or discussion that turns awful because of the influence of the world and its style and ways of speaking and debating matters. And because of the flesh that men display.

Always remember, you can be right, can have great wisdom and knowledge, can understand things and explain them well, but it will all be of no use to yourself or anyone if you do not have love and walk in that love as you speak, explain and teach, because it will sound to all as an awful clanging and roar without the Spirit and walking in Him. It will all be burned in fire if it's not of, by and in the Spirit.

Okay, I'm off to look at this all with the Spirits help.

notuptome · Dec 15, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

See you make blanket statements when you lack sufficient knowledge to make the statement.

Christians are the Lord's. Christians are to glorify God whether it be in sickness or in health. It is self delusion to teach that God doesn't place His servants into situations that He knows will best serve Him. The depth and richness of ones relationship with the Lord can be measured in the sufferings we have endured with Gods strength.

Gold is made more pure when it is tried in the fire and the dross is burned off.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

samuel23 · Dec 15, 2016

I was in WOF, when I lost my job I took out my savings that could have helped my family and gave it to Oral Roberts, thinking that by so doing God would move in a supernatural way to at least give me another job. I knew many others(big lay off in that area) that did similar things and absolutely nothing came our way(even with all our confessing). When I look back on what happened it appears that the Lord made sure that none of us who "planted a seed to receive a need" got anything so we would recognize that Oral Roberts was preaching a false message. The most obvious evidence that WOF is false is their desire for the things of this world, the leadership has made their selves rich in the same way that those of the world make them selves rich. If you stay in this organization you will become disappointed, maybe not today or tomorrow but it will happen.

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

notuptome said:

See you make blanket statements when you lack sufficient knowledge to make the statement.

Christians are the Lord's. Christians are to glorify God whether it be in sickness or in health. It is self delusion to teach that God doesn't place His servants into situations that He knows will best serve Him. The depth and richness of ones relationship with the Lord can be measured in the sufferings we have endured with Gods strength.

Gold is made more pure when it is tried in the fire and the dross is burned off.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

post to me where this is in the bible, where God says we are to glorify Him in sickness.

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

samuel23 said:

who told you to give it? were you spirit lead or just doing what another did, following there image. thats one thing taught in WoF, if you see someone do something and get blessed, praise God for it. but don't imitate them, unless the spirit guides you to do that. and that is the problem with many hurt in WoF they do something like giver there car away because they SAW someone else do it and get blessed with a new car, so they assume they can do the same. and did you have a job after that, or did you never work again? the one thing a lot of WoF people fail to realize is we still wait for God and His timing for His blessings. and maybee you didn't get anything because you didn't do it being spirit lead and in faith of what God put on your heart and i don't see "all the leaders" talking and teaching that way...

stonesoffire · Dec 15, 2016

samuel23 said:

I was in WOF, when I lost my job I took out my savings that could have helped my family and gave it to Oral Roberts, thinking that by so doing God would move in a supernatural way to at least give me another job. I knew many others(big lay off in that area) that did similar things and absolutely nothing came our way(even with all our confessing). When I look back on what happened it appears that the Lord made sure that none of us who "planted a seed to receive a need" got anything so we would recognize that Oral Roberts was preaching a false message. The most obvious evidence that WOF is false is their desire for the things of this world, the leadership has made their selves rich in the same way that those of the world make them selves rich. If you stay in this organization you will become disappointed, maybe not today or tomorrow but it will happen.

This is presumption. A teaching may be correct doctrinally but we always seek the Lord for guidance as to what we should do. . Its like putting faith in the seed which is a deed, rather than in Him.

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

Thank you for hearing me, young man, and changing the tone in your words and heart toward these women our Lord loves.
I do not despise your young age and you do not seem to be presenting quite the same thing I have heard from some preachers that I rejected completely because my Lord and His Spirit seemed nowhere at all in what they said or in their heart. And now that I see you heard and considered what I said about the way you spoke, I believe this was only possible by the Spirit being in your heart. So I am going to read this last longer post of yours and study the scriptures you've given. This will take me at least the morning to do. And when any verses occur to me that are in tension to the ones you've brought up, I will want to ask you how you fit them in, because if there's one thing I refuse to ever do, it's to ignore the verses that are in tension to, because it never increases my understanding to do that. And there are always verses "in tension to" - there never seems to be a lack of them. They must fit in instead of being ignored.

So I'll be back after I have spent some time with this last long post of yours and I have asked God for help and wisdom with this. I'd like to say one thing more. I can imagine that seminary is a bit like in here, where pride leaks into conversation and it becomes debating but without the gentle Spirit guiding us, becoming ugly and arrogant. I can imagine you are sometimes surrounded by that in seminary. But I want to caution you to not let that influence you, but instead, by submission to this gentle Spirit in you, you must influence them by your example. Don't be conformed to their way but stick to the way of the Spirit and then you will be a cause of rejoicing to your Lord instead of a grievance to Him and you will be fit for His use, able to give forth His influence instead of conforming to the ways of the world that are in seminary even. Even in this bible forum, the same thing often happens and even here, we all must strive to walk by the Spirit instead of conforming to the debating or discussion that turns awful because of the influence of the world and its style and ways of speaking and debating matters. And because of the flesh that men display.

Always remember, you can be right, can have great wisdom and knowledge, can understand things and explain them well, but it will all be of no use to yourself or anyone if you do not have love and walk in that love as you speak, explain and teach, because it will sound to all as an awful clanging and roar without the Spirit and walking in Him. It will all be burned in fire if it's not of, by and in the Spirit.

Okay, I'm off to look at this all with the Spirits help.

thank you, you were right, i looked back at my post and saw more emotion than actual scripture.

and thank you for reading my post, if it doesn't make scene i can define it better just ask.

that goes for you to Angela, i'm sorry for a lack of respect. and if you need me to edit my post anymore to better understand it just ask.

bluto · Dec 15, 2016

Look wanderer, I just cannot let this pass. Who said to samuel23, "who told you to give it?" Where do you think sanuel23 learned all this stuff about giving in order to get? It was from wof teachers and preachers just like oral roberts and worse of all is his son richard roberts. samuel is following what they were taught. I have a question for you? Who told you he was not spirit led? How do you know the operation or motives of samuels mind?

This is classic wof cult think? Blame the victim because it's his fault. Then in another post you said to notuptome, "Post to me where this is in the Bible, where God says we are to glorify Him in sickness?" You really didn't read what he said. He said, "Christians are to glorify God WHETHER in sickness or health." Is this a true biblical statement or not wanderer? And here again, your promoting wof teaching by implication in that you are taught not to have a negative confession. In fact, in some wof circles they "chant, "I am not sick, I am not sick" and to think otherwise and you don't get healed it again is the victims fault.

I can point out just about in everyone of your post that you use little "buzz words and phrases" that wof teaches the sheep. And most of this is from kenneth hagin where he said in one of his stories that he was indeed sick, but I will tell them I am not sick. Why? Because that would be a negative confession and sickness does not exist in the mind of wof teachers. It's like "whistling in the dark hoping the dark will go away."

Here is another site that "hopefully" will open your eyes. MAKING SENSE OF SICKNESS AND TERMINAL ILLNESS

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

bluto said:

brother bluto, i asked him that seriously to see his answer, because in the finance class, the bluntest and simplest class we had, Craig Hagin said "you will see people give cars away and then be blessed with one, you will see people quit there jobs and God provide an new one, you will see people give in all manner of way and recieve all manner of blessings from it. but you must be lead by the spirit to do it, not by imatation, and not by the words of a pastor. that will not bless you." the thing is a lot of people in WoF start to blessing chase, they see someone else do something then think if they do it they will get the same, or they hear a pastor say something like "so this seed and you will get this or that" thats not God lead, i've sat in sermons like that and the spirit led me to sit tight, He had other plans, and he did. it's not about teaching but whether people are being led by the spirit or there own emotions.

here is an expert on the teachings of Hagin and WoF on prosperity.

Charismatic Bible teacher Kenneth Hagin Sr. is considered the father of the so-called prosperity gospel. The folksy, self-trained “Dad Hagin” started a grass-roots movement in Oklahoma that produced a Bible college and a crop of famous preachers including Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Charles Capps, Jesse DuPlantis, Creflo Dollar and dozens of others—all of whom teach that Christians who give generously should expect financial rewards on this side of heaven.

Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor. But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.

Those who were close to Hagin Sr. say he was passionate about correcting these abuses before he died. In fact, he wrote a brutally honest book to address his concerns. The Midas Touch was published in 2000, a year after the infamous Tulsa meeting.

Many Word-Faith ministers ignored the book. But in light of the recent controversy over prosperity doctrines, it might be a good idea to dust it off and read it again.

Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:

1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”

2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”

3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”

4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.

5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”

(Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)

Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,” Hagin wrote.

Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.

Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?

J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma magazine.

and i want him to actually post a verse that glorify God in sickness. i will boast all the more in my infirmities, but that word has nothing to do with illness or sickness. so if he said in weakness and strength, i would respond with an Amen. but i am asking him to validate that statement with the word.

and when he said that about the head ache he was talking about the people he ran into through out his day, if i am not feeling well i'm not going to tell everyone and FB, i'm going to tell my roommates, my fiancee, and those close and bee in prayer about it. but the random people i hardly know, know. i'm not going to give it power in my body. when i am getting the symptoms of a cold, i; 1. start praying for healing, 2. get a massive amount of vitamin C, 3. drink fluids and take Tylenol if needed. after that i thank God and trust Him, and its gone before the day is over. if its more serious, i listen to His leading, if he says get to the doctor i don't hesitate (i do now a little not having insurance lol), but first and most important i yelled to Him and the word.

Stunnedbygrace · Dec 15, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

We are to glorify God in ALL things and in ALL circumstances. Everything He made was to show His glory. Whether I have a little or a lot, whether in adversity or sickness or health and ease, I should glorify God. And if I find I am not, I ask Him for His help and His wisdom.

I am helping someone right now but will be back to discuss what I said I would this evening. I hope nothing happens to prevent me but if it does, then I will be here tomorrow morning. But hopefully tonight.

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

ok

but bring some verse about what God says about us living in sickness, you won't find any. His word is against it full when His children are looking to Him.

Stunnedbygrace · Dec 15, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

Okay, let's start with my objections first, do you think? Is that good? Though they aren't objections so much as verses that are in tension to the ones you quote. They must fit together in my understanding. I can't ignore the problems or the tensions to my favorite verses. It doesn't satisfy me that I have Gods' mind on a matter enough to be adamant if I have no understanding of it roundly. But I have asked Him to help me, to help us, and He will not refuse us wisdom when we need it and ask for it.

I will be honest as I can and say that there are some areas of confusion for me concerning healing. I don't have the mind of God on it completely. If I did, there would be no real tension between the verses because I would understand both sides at once.

So, I would like to hear a man speak on it by the Spirit in him, but I've never come across that yet so I am willing to start with what men have taught you. Of course you know my first question before I ask it. What do these men teach you about Paul and his thorn in the flesh, of which he asked our Lord three times to remove it?

Thank you beforehand for your efforts here.

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

2 Corinthians 12King James Version (KJV)
12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

[SUP]4 [/SUP]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Ok, thank you for the question, first I will post the verse we are talking about and the surrounding ones. So first the word used here for infirmities is the one most people quote for meaning sickness, but that is not the context of the usage of it here. Here is is used in the sense of lacking in manliness and dignity or specifically: contextually, the inability to achieve anything great. The use of it is to show his human weakness in fulfilling the “measure” that was reviled to him. Now this I will tell you, this measure was meaning a word for throwing beyond, excess, superiority. And its to his Gospel, not him. People like to say God let the devil bring the thorn to keep him from pride… that makes no sense if paul was in danger of pride the devil would let him bee to bring a great fall in him and the churches he planted. The context of the thorn was something to keep him from fulfilling the message and revelation God had given him. And you can find the thorns context in the word buffet, or torment. The Greek word here is used in a sense of repeated blows, like being struck by a fist. No if it was a sickness, we would see evidence of it all through acts, but do we? No, but I can tell you what the thorn is, I can even show you. Paul spoke it in the word just a few short verses before his mention of the thorn.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Paul’s thorn was the constant persecution and opposition he faced where ever he went. That is clear in acts, and all his epistles. It was not sickness that plagued him but a demonic force that moved against him. in that journey God delivered him from each blow in HIS strength. But to say the thorn was a sickness, no we can’t that’s not the context of the word. To say it’s the opposition we face every day in our Christian walk, yes that we can say is our thorn, when everything seems to be falling apart, that is our thorn, ant the lesion is to rest in the mighty arms of Jesus because they will lead us and deliver us from that storm, and the next storm, and every storm.

wanderer6059 · Dec 15, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

2 Corinthians 12King James Version (KJV)
12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

[SUP]4 [/SUP]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Ok, thank you for the question, first I will post the verse we are talking about and the surrounding ones. So first the word used here for infirmities is the one most people quote for meaning sickness, but that is not the context of the usage of it here. Here is is used in the sense of lacking in manliness and dignity or specifically: contextually, the inability to achieve anything great. The use of it is to show his human weakness in fulfilling the “measure” that was reviled to him. Now this I will tell you, this measure was meaning a word for throwing beyond, excess, superiority. And its to his Gospel, not him. People like to say God let the devil bring the thorn to keep him from pride… that makes no sense if paul was in danger of pride the devil would let him bee to bring a great fall in him and the churches he planted. The context of the thorn was something to keep him from fulfilling the message and revelation God had given him. And you can find the thorns context in the word buffet, or torment. The Greek word here is used in a sense of repeated blows, like being struck by a fist. No if it was a sickness, we would see evidence of it all through acts, but do we? No, but I can tell you what the thorn is, I can even show you. Paul spoke it in the word just a few short verses before his mention of the thorn.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
[SUP]27[/SUP]In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Paul’s thorn was the constant persecution and opposition he faced where ever he went. That is clear in acts, and all his epistles. It was not sickness that plagued him but a demonic force that moved against him. in that journey God delivered him from each blow in HIS strength. But to say the thorn was a sickness, no we can’t that’s not the context of the word. To say it’s the opposition we face every day in our Christian walk, yes that we can say is our thorn, when everything seems to be falling apart, that is our thorn, ant the lesion is to rest in the mighty arms of Jesus because they will lead us and deliver us from that storm, and the next storm, and every storm.

and these are some of my studie helps.

2 Corinthians 12:7 Lexicon: Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!

Strong's Greek: 5229. ὑπεραίρομαι (huperairó) -- to lift or raise over, mid. to uplift oneself

Strong's Greek: 5236. ὑπερβολή (huperbolé) -- a throwing beyond, excess, superiority

Strong's Greek: 2852. κολαφίζω (kolaphizó) -- to strike with the fist

Strong's Greek: 772. ἀσθενής (asthenés) -- without strength, weak

samuel23 · Dec 15, 2016

In answer. Of course I thought giving to Oral Roberts was what God wanted me to do. At the time I was layed off from my job and got up early each morning to pray, read the bible constantly, and attended a charismatic church all the time. I can see myself saying what you are saying years ago, it took years for the Lord to get through to me. Kenneth Hagin was my hero, only when I watched him under the false laughing anointing did I finally have to admit to myself that he was deceived. You spoke of being led by the Spirit. So many people in WOF and also other Pentecostal movements are being led by a spirit that they are convinced is the spirit of God but it is NOT the Spirit of God. You cannot go by your feelings or sense that what is leading you is God, a false spirit is able to give you a spiritual experience. Example, Bennie Hinn came on national TV and announced that God had told him that Castro would die in the nineties. I believe that Hinn actually did hear from what he sincerely believed was God, however if it really was God that Hinn heard from then Castro would have died in the 90s. My point, be very careful what spirit you are following.

bluto · Dec 15, 2016

Before I respond to this post wanderer can you please tell me if you read every word from the following site? MAKING SENSE OF SICKNESS AND TERMINAL ILLNESS

If so can you please tell me what your objections are for the reasons that God sometimes uses sickness not only for His glory but for various other reasons as explained in the article.

Now, it would be nice if you could please site your sources as to where you get your information. I'm not talking about you using Strong's Lexicon, I'm talking about who gave you the reason for Paul's throne in the flesh? The truth be known there is not one person alive that knows for an absolutel certaintly what it is. We do have some pretty good clues in the scriptures from the Apostle's own words that help us out.

Mainly from 2 Corinthians 12:7-8 for starters. (And yes, I know it was mentioned in the article you provided) but the conclusion which is what was said here: "Paul’s thorn was the constant persecution and opposition he faced where ever he went." does not "jive" with the context. It could be said that the problem Paul had he alluded to at Galatians 4:13,14, "but you know it was a BODILY ILLNESS that I preached the gospel to you the first time, vs14, and that whcih was a trial to you in my BODILY CONDITION you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself."

As you can see we do not know exactly what the condition was as it related to the thron. However, it was a bodily illness/condition in which the Apostle aked three times to be delivered/healed and God did not do it. In fact Paul himself says that the healing did not come in order for him to be humble according to 2 Corinthians 12:7.

So what do we have? We have Paul seeing revelations, which probably affected his eyesight. And remember at Acts 9:3 Paul was blinded for three days on the road to Damascus by Jesus Christ. And as I think about it Jesus said words to the affect that Paul will know what it's like to suffer as a Christian. Also Paul said at Galatians 4:15, "For I bear witness, that if possible, yho would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me." Bottom line, Paul had physical problems and God did not heal him but told him His grace is sufficient enough for him to "adapt, overcome and imporvise if need be. This is a Marine saying that I learned and am applying it to Paul.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

FlSnookman7 · Dec 15, 2016

samuel23 said:

In answer. Of course I thought giving to Oral Roberts was what God wanted me to do. At the time I was layed off from my job and got up early each morning to pray, read the bible constantly, and attended a charismatic church all the time. I can see myself saying what you are saying years ago, it took years for the Lord to get through to me. Kenneth Hagin was my hero, only when I watched him under the false laughing anointing did I finally have to admit to myself that he was deceived. You spoke of being led by the Spirit. So many people in WOF and also other Pentecostal movements are being led by a spirit that they are convinced is the spirit of God but it is NOT the Spirit of God. You cannot go by your feelings or sense that what is leading you is God, a false spirit is able to give you a spiritual experience. Example, Bennie Hinn came on national TV and announced that God had told him that Castro would die in the nineties. I believe that Hinn actually did hear from what he sincerely believed was God, however if it really was God that Hinn heard from then Castro would have died in the 90s. My point, be very careful what spirit you are following.

Castro was 90 when he died....just sayin.

Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

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