"replacement theology" - what is it?

[tanakh]

Good evening tanakh,

Chapter 1 thru 3 = Church referred to, but not Saints

Chapter 4 onward = Saints referred to, but not the church

This is a God given clue, a deeper understanding of God's word. Throughout the rest of scripture, the word church and saints are used interchangeably. But here in Revelation, there is a distinction made between the two and that to demonstrate that the church is no longer present from chapter 4 onward. The saints that are referred to are those who come out of the great tribulation. It is no coincidence that the Holy Spirit used only the word Church throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never uses that word again during the entire narrative. Now if the words church and saints was used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then it would be a non issue. But by making a distinction between them, God is giving us pertinent information here.

I beg to differ. This is an interpretation. If God was giving pertinent information he would have given such in plain language understood from the time of John until today. The book is not just about what would happen in the then distant future it was also a pastoral letter to seven real churches that were suffering persecution and tribulation under the rule of Diocletian who was the first Emperor to make Emperor worship compulsory under pain of death torture and exile. Johns exile was a lessor penalty. He was originally sentenced to be boiled in oil but God had other plans for him. Christ gave those churches comfort and exhortation to overcome during the terrible trials that they were experiencing and at the same time gave hope to Christians throughout the ages to follow. The visions John received were meant to apply symbolically to the whole of the Church age not just to the time of the end. Christ states that he was coming soon in a number of places and warned that he would remove lampstands that represented the seven churches and that his reward was with him this applied initially to the seven churches that he was addressing and all churches up until the second coming. Any other interpretation after an absence of over 2000 years makes no sense.

 

[garee]

My meaning is that you try to make a division and then from there you end up with those who are identified as being from the twelve tribes of Israel and making them the church. Who is taking away from the word of this prophecy? That would be, you. My point is that John heard those who were sealed as being from the twelve tribes of Israel and that is exactly who they will be, not the church. The 144,000 are in no way representing the church. This is a well known false teaching.

144,000 = Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel

Great multitude which no man can count = Gentile believers who come out of the great tribulation

144,000 = the chaste virgin bride of Christ ,the church. She is the mother of us all pictured in Revelation 12. She being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.The Sun and moon under her feet ,it is the last day the 7th trump had blown for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered Rev 12:2

The twelve stars representing the twelve tribes used as metaphors and the twelve apostles used as metaphors .

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband Rev 21:1

 

[Bladerunner]

no, the promise to bless or curse was given to Abram only.
concerning his lifetime - not some 1000s-of-years-gap-fast-forward-to-jews-walking-around-today theory

you go ahead and run with that thought...Me,,,,I believe in the whole "Word of God"

 

[88]

Some falsely believe because the Jews rejected Christ ---now the Church has taken Israel's place... Jews are being saved---Israel is fulfilling her future destiny---Many Jews will be saved in the Tribulation---there will be 144,000 Jewish preachers in the Tribulation, ect.

 

[zone]

you go ahead and run with that thought...Me,,,,I believe in the whole "Word of God"

it's not my own thought.
if you read it, you'll see He made the promise to Abram ONLY.
I realize ppl are taught otherwise, but goes to show you...it's that easy to deceive.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

God made several promises to Abraham, and they are in effect to Israel, as he told Abraham:

"I will make of you a great nation"

Clearly the Church was the intended recipient of these blessings, as has recently been pointed out:

Hebrews 11 17 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.



A point reiterated by Paul who explained quite clearly that the seed - “To your offspring (seed) I will give this land ” - was Christ.


The doctrine of modern day Israel the terrorist state being the recipient of the promises is bizarre. It just has no legs to stand on, so I cannot understand why people endorse it.

 

[dcontroversal]

it's not my own thought.
if you read it, you'll see He made the promise to Abram ONLY.
I realize ppl are taught otherwise, but goes to show you...it's that easy to deceive.

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Who is THEM?

How is that to ABRAM only?

 

[tanakh]

Some falsely believe because the Jews rejected Christ ---now the Church has taken Israel's place... Jews are being saved---Israel is fulfilling her future destiny---Many Jews will be saved in the Tribulation---there will be 144,000 Jewish preachers in the Tribulation, ect.

14400 Jewish preachers? Hal Lyndsey strikes again Yes I read his book many moons ago and remember the quote

 

[Bladerunner]

it's not my own thought.
if you read it, you'll see He made the promise to Abram ONLY.
I realize ppl are taught otherwise, but goes to show you...it's that easy to deceive.

God not only told Abram but he told many others and it is written in the Bible several times. Look it up.

 

[Bladerunner]

14400 Jewish preachers? Hal Lyndsey strikes again Yes I read his book many moons ago and remember the quote

Hi tanakh....what is your opinion of the 144,000.

 

[peacenik]

The doctrine of modern day Israel the terrorist state being the recipient of the promises is bizarre. It just has no legs to stand on, so I cannot understand why people endorse it.

True Torah Jews explain why there is no basis for Zionism:

Our Mission | True Torah Jews


And, of course, in the New Testament we are taught that all Christians are heirs to the Abrahamic Kingdom which invalidates Israel's exclusionist nationality law. Therefore, there is no valid basis for the concept of "Christian Zionism".

 

[tanakh]

God made several promises to Abraham, and they are in effect to Israel, as he told Abraham:

"I will make of you a great nation"

Clearly the Church was the intended recipient of these blessings, as has recently been pointed out:

Hebrews 11 17 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.



A point reiterated by Paul who explained quite clearly that the seed - “To your offspring (seed) I will give this land ” - was Christ.


The doctrine of modern day Israel the terrorist state being the recipient of the promises is bizarre. It just has no legs to stand on, so I cannot understand why people endorse it.

People support Israel because they read that God will curse them if they dont. Thing is he wasnt talking about a modern
Christ hating secular state at the time . Whatever the Israeli government does is fine by them as long as Jehovah leaves them alone.

 

[trofimus]

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Who is THEM?

How is that to ABRAM only?

Genesis 12

"AND the Lord said to Abram, Go forth out of thy land and out of thy kindred, and out of the house of thy father, and come into the land which I will shew thee.
And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed.
And I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee, and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

God says He will once more lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her there again. That is cause for celebration and cause for hopeful prayer, not for arguing and bickering.

 

[trofimus]

God says He will once more lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her there again. That is cause for celebration and cause for hopeful prayer, not for arguing and bickering.

If it was said in the Old Covenant, it does not apply today.

 

[tanakh]

Hi tanakh....what is your opinion of the 144,000.

DCifficult to say exactly who they are. I don't believe the number is to be taken literally. The number 12 appears to represent perfect holiness in the Bible, and other numbers appear as symbols in Revelation. Number seven in particular The idea that there could possibly be that number of literal virgins I find hard to believe. The names of the tribes of Israel vary in the Bible depending on which list you read. In this passage the tribe of Joseph is mentioned when everywhere else
there is no tribe of Joseph. His sons Ephraim and Manasseh are counted instead so how can we take this list literally? I think it does represent a remnant of Jewish believers but whether they are Jewish evangelists or not I haved no idea.

 

[Bladerunner]

DCifficult to say exactly who they are. I don't believe the number is to be taken literally. The number 12 appears to represent perfect holiness in the Bible, and other numbers appear as symbols in Revelation. Number seven in particular The idea that there could possibly be that number of literal virgins I find hard to believe. The names of the tribes of Israel vary in the Bible depending on which list you read. In this passage the tribe of Joseph is mentioned when everywhere else
there is no tribe of Joseph. His sons Ephraim and Manasseh are counted instead so how can we take this list literally? I think it does represent a remnant of Jewish believers but whether they are Jewish evangelists or not I haved no idea.

Excuse me..... No tribe of Joseph????/


How about Rev. 7:6,8..."And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand


It is obvious that it a number in the amount of 144,000 and each one is associated with one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God says He will once more lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her there again. That is cause for celebration and cause for hopeful prayer, not for arguing and bickering.

Amen, It also says in those days, the whole world (jew and Gentile) will live in harmony and peace. and they will all look up to Jesus.

What a day that will be!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If it was said in the Old Covenant, it does not apply today.

That was abrahamic covenant, Not Mosaic.. The term "Old COvenant" was in reference to mosaic..

 

[garee]

Excuse me..... No tribe of Joseph????/


How about Rev. 7:6,8..."And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand


It is obvious that it a number in the amount of 144,000 and each one is associated with one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Tribes are used as metaphors in parables just as apostles are. They both as metaphors represent the one chaste virgin bride, Christ. Our salvation has nothing to do with glorying in the the flesh of any man.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one (bride) in Christ Jesus.