To all the post trib and no trib believers.

[popeye]

Well,for the Jews,the holocaust was great tribulation. For the church,communism,iddy Amin,and the inquisition was great tribulation.

The innumerable number in heaven were beheaded by the AC during the GT.

The whole thing,7years,is called Jacob's trouble.

So,the" wrath is not trb/ trib is not wrath" thingy is really an overlap,and not JUST 2distinct periods.

Not saying one is the other,but Jacobs trouble,is during the wrath,so the whole thing is "tribulation" (trouble)

 

[dcontroversal]

It would be nice if pre-trib were true.. It would spare us from a lot.. But it wouldnt make any sense so we will see

Today I studied 7 references to the resurrection/change taking place at the last day.......

Genesis 1:1-6 Time is marked off in the division of darkness and light, night and day as the 1st DAY

Revelation 10....When the 7th angel begins to sound (7th trump) the announcement is made that TIME shall be NO MORE and the Mystery of God would be finished.

I was raised in a church that emphatically taught the imminent return....I no longer believe that...there are too many scriptures in context that teaches a post Great Tribulation pre Wrath ingathering.....

Even the parable of the wheat and tares teaches that God begins to move against the tares first before he gathers the wheat which jives with a 7th trump ingathering.

Paul said at the LAST trump the dead in Christ will rise and we will be changed...

etc........

even the faithful church in Revelation is told that God would KEEP them fro the hour that will try the whole earth...the word keep means to guard from loss or injury....it does not mean remove...

 

[PlainWord]

This is when God judges, he himself comes to defend Israel. As I stated before the second coming has little if anything to do with the church, as the bride is with him when he returns. Where did they go? They were caught up in the air

There is only the second coming. There is no other earlier return of Christ. Granted there will be church members with Him, many of them. But they got to be with Him because they died. As for the Bride, the Bride is not complete until the end.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This tribulation is against the wicked and un regenerate. Ever notice there is no preaching or witnessing, no baptizing. And no happy ending for those not found in Christ. Totally different.

If you are referring to the below tribulation, you would be correct but notice when it happens.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It happens at the ONE and ONLY Return of Christ. No other return is taught.

 

[pottersclay]

Today I studied 7 references to the resurrection/change taking place at the last day.......

Genesis 1:1-6 Time is marked off in the division of darkness and light, night and day as the 1st DAY

Revelation 10....When the 7th angel begins to sound (7th trump) the announcement is made that TIME shall be NO MORE and the Mystery of God would be finished.

I was raised in a church that emphatically taught the imminent return....I no longer believe that...there are too many scriptures in context that teaches a post Great Tribulation pre Wrath ingathering.....

Even the parable of the wheat and tares teaches that God begins to move against the tares first before he gathers the wheat which jives with a 7th trump ingathering.

Paul said at the LAST trump the dead in Christ will rise and we will be changed...

etc........

even the faithful church in Revelation is told that God would KEEP them fro the hour that will try the whole earth...the word keep means to guard from loss or injury....it does not mean remove...

So let's just say we take the preaching of the imminent return off the table what do we have left? There is no reason to preach the gospel because people will just wait for the signs the convert. Being non believers they would be hard pressed to consider old age or tragedies to convert.

Look at the verse again....no man knows the day or hour yet Jesus told them the signs that led up to it. Ya kinda know your getting close when these things take place.

Now putting pre trib back as it should be tends to make more sense. All is fulfilled for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Except for the 3 last feasts ...trumpets....atonement...tabernacle. which has nothing to do with the church. Only Israel.

The calling up for the saints could happen at any time before Jacob troubles. You see your scenario doesn't fit.

 

[dcontroversal]

So let's just say we take the preaching of the imminent return off the table what do we have left? There is no reason to preach the gospel because people will just wait for the signs the convert. Being non believers they would be hard pressed to consider old age or tragedies to convert.

Look at the verse again....no man knows the day or hour yet Jesus told them the signs that led up to it. Ya kinda know your getting close when these things take place.

Now putting pre trib back as it should be tends to make more sense. All is fulfilled for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Except for the 3 last feasts ...trumpets....atonement...tabernacle. which has nothing to do with the church. Only Israel.

The calling up for the saints could happen at any time before Jacob troubles. You see your scenario doesn't fit.

This is nothing but supposition.....the bible does not teach pre-trib...end of story.....Matthew, Mark, Luke all teach a post Great trib ingathering by the angels as does the parable of the wheat and tares, Paus aid Last trump and after man of sin is revealed, Daniel and Rev both teach a war on the saints by the beast and him prevailing against them for the time period of the great trib....over and over again there are verses in context that refute the imminent return...there are NO verses in context that states or proves the imminent return...zero, nada, none!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Happy New Year to you dcontroversal!

Revelation 10....When the 7th angel begins to sound (7th trump) the announcement is made that TIME shall be NO MORE and the Mystery of God would be finished.

Regarding the above the meaning to "there shall be no more time and the Mystery of God would be finished" is referring to the fact that immediately following that, the seven bowl judgments will bring God's wrath to their completion.

Even the parable of the wheat and tares teaches that God begins to move against the tares first before he gathers the wheat which jives with a 7th trump ingathering

After the church is gathered, there will be another group on the during that time who are referred to by the elder as "those who come out of the great tribulation." We are introduced to two groups in Rev.7 who are not the church

1) The 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel

2) The great tribulation saints from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles)

This is why I continue to point out that, the church is never mentioned again after the end chapter 3.

Revelation 1 - 3 = Church mentioned, but no hagios/saints

Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/saints, but no ekklesia/church

The above is very significant in recognizing that the church is no longer mentioned within the narrative within the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

I was raised in a church that emphatically taught the imminent return....I no longer believe that...there are too many scriptures in context that teaches a post Great Tribulation pre Wrath ingathering.....

Forgive me but, you have come to that conclusion because you are reading scripture that pertains to the great tribulation saints and Israel and not to the church. Matt.24:29-31 is referring to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. At that time, the angels will be gathering those saints who make it through the time of God's wrath until Jesus returns. It is not referring to a resurrection as some have claimed. Matt.24:29-31 is synonymous with Rev.19:11-21. Regarding this, if you will notice, the bride/church is seen following receiving her fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses, which would demonstrate that she is already in heaven.

If you understand that the opening of the first seal is the beginning of God's wrath, then that is the time period that Jesus is going to keep believers out of, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

While it is true that the believers will have trials and tribulation, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which is not the same as the common tribulation that Jesus said we would suffer.

 

[popeye]

all I need in this case is common sense.. not so much spiritual knowledge.. just sayin

It probably is an ingredient. But not "all I need"

 

[samuel23]

It may be true that the word "church" is not mentioned past chapter four of Revelation, however the most perfect description of the church in the bible is given in Rev 7:9 a great multitude which no man could number of all nations ,and kindreds, and people, and tongues...they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...that is a perfect description of the church. You reject the obvious, that it is the church, because they came out of the great tribulation. Do you realize how hard it will be for anyone to be saved during the tribulation? The three and one half years that the Antichrist reigns will be a time when Christians are being hunted down and killed. There will be no gospel meetings as there are today, no invitations to accept Christ, this is the period of time when Jesus said, the night comes when no man can work.

 

[dcontroversal]

Happy New Year to you dcontroversal!

Revelation 10....When the 7th angel begins to sound (7th trump) the announcement is made that TIME shall be NO MORE and the Mystery of God would be finished.

Regarding the above the meaning to "there shall be no more time and the Mystery of God would be finished" is referring to the fact that immediately following that, the seven bowl judgments will bring God's wrath to their completion.
.

Exactly and the following....You have three things listed....

a) Jesus seizes all Kingdoms of the Earth as LORD-->The Day of the Lord commences
b) Jesus rewards the SAINTS, Prophets and those who fear God-->The Day of Christ commences
c) Jesus as God pours out his wrath on the Unbelieving gathered under the beast->The Day of God commences

Peter and Paul tie ALL three together...it is ONE day with Jesus who is both Lord, Christ and God.....the day LASTS 1000 years as Jesus rules as Lord on the throne of David, mediates as Christ between humanity and the invisible Heavenly Father, and as Immanuel dwells with man as God......

 

[popeye]

It may be true that the word "church" is not mentioned past chapter four of Revelation, however the most perfect description of the church in the bible is given in Rev 7:9 a great multitude which no man could number of all nations ,and kindreds, and people, and tongues...they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...that is a perfect description of the church. You reject the obvious, that it is the church, because they came out of the great tribulation. Do you realize how hard it will be for anyone to be saved during the tribulation? The three and one half years that the Antichrist reigns will be a time when Christians are being hunted down and killed. There will be no gospel meetings as there are today, no invitations to accept Christ, this is the period of time when Jesus said, the night comes when no man can work.

1) They had dirty robes. They washed them in blood. "...and they loved not their lives unto death"
2) They are those left behind. Mat 25 the 5 foolish virgins
3) The word says the AC kills every man woman and child refusing the mark (christians.They ALL DIE)
4) The REASON ALL ARE KILLED is it is the end of the church age.
5) as we progress,we see the utter impossibility and non sense that anyone would believe the rapture could even remotely be post trib.

 

[popeye]

Sorry but you'll be hurt if you keep on... The meeting in the clouds happens when the dead rise.. the dead good and bad rise to go to judgement.. that doesn't happen til later..

You are confusing 2 different things.

The GWT judgement is the general resurrection of the dead. That happens AFTER the millineum.

1 thes 4 is the DEAD IN CHRIST ONLY resurrection.No judgement on Christ's body. No others are resurrected.

 

[HisHolly]

Absolutely wrong.. u need to restudy

You are confusing 2 different things.

The GWT judgement is the general resurrection of the dead. That happens AFTER the millineum.

1 thes 4 is the DEAD IN CHRIST ONLY resurrection.No judgement on Christ's body. No others are resurrected.

 

[popeye]

Absolutely wrong.. u need to restudy

the only way you can come up with that is if you think the rapture happens after the millineum. Which is a impossibility.

Because the general resurrection of the just and unjust happens,and they are SPECIFICALLY judged into the lake of fire.

"Not studying" would have me doing what you do. Overgeneralize,and omit any references.

 

[popeye]

Mat 24 is Jesus talking PRIVATELY to his disciples.

Luke 17 is Jesus talking SPECIFICALLY to the pharisees.

In 24 Jesus says "...deluge comes and LIFTS all..."

In 17 it says "...destroys all..."

They are not the same.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 thes 4 is the DEAD IN CHRIST ONLY resurrection.No judgement on Christ's body. No others are resurrected.

popeye, are you saying that 1 Thes.4:13-17 only refers to the resurrection of the those who have died in Christ? And if so, what about the rest of the scripture which says, "after that we who remain and are still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?"

 

[popeye]

popeye, are you saying that 1 Thes.4:13-17 only refers to the resurrection of the those who have died in Christ? And if so, what about the rest of the scripture which says, "after that we who remain and are still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?"[/COLOR]

Those taken alive.

They are taken alive,not resurrected.

 

[popeye]

Mat 24 is Jesus talking PRIVATELY to his disciples.

Luke 17 is Jesus talking SPECIFICALLY to the pharisees.

In 24 Jesus says "...deluge comes and LIFTS all..."

In 17 it says "...destroys all..."

They are not the same.

onlinegreekinterlinear.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Those taken alive.

They are taken alive,not resurrected.

Good to hear! I'm glad that you said that, because from what you wrote, it looked like you were saying only the dead are involved. Actually, the dead are resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies and the living believers will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies. By the way, who else could be resurrected except for the dead?

 

[Ahwatukee]

It may be true that the word "church" is not mentioned past chapter four of Revelation, however the most perfect description of the church in the bible is given in Rev 7:9 a great multitude which no man could number of all nations ,and kindreds, and people, and tongues...they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...that is a perfect description of the church.

Hi samuel23,

The group that you are referring to above in Rev.7:9-17 is not the church. Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. And now here in Rev.7:9-17, the fact that the elder is introducing this group afterwards demonstrates that those in white robes which no man can count, are not the church, but a different group. In addition, the elder asks John who they are and he doesn't know.

These are the same saints the beast is given power over to make war and conquer referred to in Rev.13:5-8. And are also the same saints that are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 after Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

The very reason that the church is not mentioned from chapter 4 onward, is God's way of showing us that the church is no longer on the earth during the time when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are taking place, which are the wrath of God. You are ignoring this fact by stating that this is a perfect description of the church.

In addition, these great tribulation saints are shown to be exposed to God's wrath, while the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath:

* Never again will they hunger (3rd seal)
* never again will they thirst. (3rd Trumpet, 2nd & 3rd bowls)
* The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. (4th bowl)

This group of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, are those who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered.

 

[Demi777]

Well then explain me why we will die the martyrer death and should not take the mark of thr beast if we were to be picked up before that

Today I studied 7 references to the resurrection/change taking place at the last day.......

Genesis 1:1-6 Time is marked off in the division of darkness and light, night and day as the 1st DAY

Revelation 10....When the 7th angel begins to sound (7th trump) the announcement is made that TIME shall be NO MORE and the Mystery of God would be finished.

I was raised in a church that emphatically taught the imminent return....I no longer believe that...there are too many scriptures in context that teaches a post Great Tribulation pre Wrath ingathering.....

Even the parable of the wheat and tares teaches that God begins to move against the tares first before he gathers the wheat which jives with a 7th trump ingathering.

Paul said at the LAST trump the dead in Christ will rise and we will be changed...

etc........

even the faithful church in Revelation is told that God would KEEP them fro the hour that will try the whole earth...the word keep means to guard from loss or injury....it does not mean remove...