Did Christ do enough to save us?

[nowyouseem033]

This discussion has been part of the tension of christian thought since Christ.
How much is choice and how much election.

And nothing happens without Gods involvement. But God has given us the power to choose.
He has given us the choice to follow or ignore it all. You see it in every believer you meet.
They are the sum of their choice and the blessing God has given them based on where they
have reached. It is stunning to see how much the Lord will give if we walk, but not until.

His heart throughout the law and the gospels is do this little thing, and I will shower you with
blessing and help, but you need to take the step. I know this in my own spiritual life, which
I always find amazing, as the Lord as all the power, so why am I involved, but this is His way.

And it is not a huge emphasis, it is like just us saying yes, that was bad, sorry, yep I will do
this etc. Without this we are not involved, which is a massive difference.

John 15:5 "..without me you can do nothing" In turn without the Spirit working you will never work. Which means you are dependent on the spirit and his work for you to actually achieve anything. It is impossibe for you to do anything without the Spirit working in you. Not the other way around as you claim. You say its you who has to do these things but that kind of man centre-dness denies the ministry of the Holy Spirit. God has given you the power to choose YES, BUT you will always choose that which is consistent with your nature. If you have a new nature then you will choose according to it, if not then you will choose according to your sinful nature. Again Christs atonement is complete and enough. The fact is everybody follows something... you will choose to follow what your nature inclines you to follow. ... The Lord does not give a bit here and there and then leaves you to yourself?? No he is ALWAYS with you, ministering to you through his Spirit. God does not take his hand off you and sees what you will do. God keeps his hand on you until you meet with him at the end of this life.

 

[Angela53510]

Peter, I certainly understand and sympathize with your concerns, for those who think they are saved, but indeed show no change in their lives, or that they are picking up their cross and following Christ. Those people are caught in "easy believism" and although I am not to judge, I do worry and pray for these souls, who have been blocked from truly seeking God by saying a sinner's prayer, or mental assent to not wanting to go to hell when they die.

But it is God that saves! He is the one who justifies!


"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2

Once we have truly been justified by God we spend the rest of our lives cooperating with the Holy Spirit as he sanctifies us!

"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:2

The word "transformed" in the verse above is μεταμορφοῦσθε or metamorphousthe, which is in the Imperative Passive. In other words, we are commanded to let God change and transform us!

Is this what you are trying to say in your OP? That God commands us to "cooperate" with him, our whole Christian walk? Because if the answer is yes, you do not seem to have presented your OP and subsequent posts very well. It is not "works" to do what the Holy Spirit is leading us to do. But we simply could not do those works of ourselves.

If the answer is no, you are preaching not just a "works" gospel, but a man centered gospel. Because you have put man in the driver's seat, not God. God is the one who gives us the ability to change.

When I look back at the person I was before Christ saved me, and then has been working on me for 36 years, there is absolutely nothing I could have done to take that sinful, filthy, wretched sinner I was, and make it into the God loving person I am today. Am I perfect? No! In fact, for two years, when my illness was at its worst, I turned my face to the wall, like Hezekiah. But I did not stop believing in Christ, nor did he stop believing in me - that meaning - that he had me in the palm of his hand, and even that desert experience he would use for good.

I do agree that we need to be following Christ. I do see many carnal Christians, who seem sincere in their faith but DO ungodly things. (I'm not just talking about here!). But God is the one who needs to deal with them. It's why I always push reading the Bible. Because the Word of God teaches us God's truth and standards. It enables our heart to listen to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit also enlightens our hearts to read what is there. (That is the cooperating part!) Posting Scriptures here is not enough. People need to read the Bible in context. And not in devotionals, or with commentaries, until they have read the Bible over and over, and over, and have a good idea what God is saying to them in his Word. Then, maybe it is time to seek out the words of others. (But not false teachers, of course!).

I think if you want to be provoking about encouraging people to follow Christ with all their hearts, souls, minds and strength, that would be a wonderful thing. But I do not think this is the thread that is going to do it.

Peace, my brother!

 

[PeterJens]

In reality, what you are truly preaching is the false gospel of Rome.

The language you are using is common to those who wish to deny obedience is our hearts desire.
The methodists holiness movement is probably closest to my position, as far as I understand it.

Now if you feel that is being like a roman catholic, fine, but you have not really been conclusive.

The real point is, Jesus appears to be saying a false teacher does not change, their fruit is
the product of their heart.

Therefore if you do not love, do not obey, do not follow, you are not one with Christ.
If you are not one with Christ you are not saved.

Now this is not the message of the church of Rome lol.

 

[nowyouseem033]

You touch on something, which again I have found true. Until we confess something, it
is just in our thoughts, a possibility of a position. Something spiritual takes place when
we confess, we feel it in our souls. I do not talk about gaining and loosing salvation, I
am talking about dealing with issues or leaving them alone.

Faith for me is the cornerstone of salvation, which if we loose we loose our salvation
and relationship. It is why Jesus prayed for Peters faith to stay strong, even when
he denied Christ. Judas fell away, if he ever really believed.

I sometimes wonder if our over analysis helps sometimes or tries to define and separate that
which cannot be separated. Like faith and works, love and hope, righteousness and purity.

In one sense we are saved before the beginning of time, written in the lambs book of life,
yet we choose to respond to Christs prompting. We are sheep uniquely set so we respond,
but still salvation is available to all, yet only the elect respond.

Now to those despondant in legalism, it is easier to dump the transformed life, because it
evades them, but I would rather say they have never known Christ in the sense I mean.

Okay so missing the point... you deny that Christ did enough to save us? and your reasons are because its WE who have to complete that. No no no no its the Spirits job to apply salvation to our hearts not ours only. The spirit works in our hearts to bring us to repentance so therefore WE repent ONLY because of the SPIRIT. Christ did do enough to save us and the Spirit is convicting people of that truth and therefore transforming hearts of unwillingness to willingness. And then we willingly obey, repent etc etc that you mentioned. Again those things are a response to the ALREADY FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST not a COMPLETION OF THE WORK OF CHRIST. BBBIIIGGGG DIFFEERREEENNNNCEEEEE

 

[PeterJens]

The word "transformed" in the verse above is μεταμορφοῦσθε or metamorphousthe, which is in the Imperative Passive. In other words, we are commanded to let God change and transform us!

Is this what you are trying to say in your OP? That God commands us to "cooperate" with him, our whole Christian walk? Because if the answer is yes, you do not seem to have presented your OP and subsequent posts very well. It is not "works" to do what the Holy Spirit is leading us to do. But we simply could not do those works of ourselves.

Thank you. Yes, this is the point I am making.

I need to explore it a bit more, when I have some time.

 

[nowyouseem033]

We are responding to a ALREADY FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST, not responding to COMPLETE THE WORK OF CHRIST. Our works serve to reflect the Spirit thats working in us not our works serve to engage the Spirits willingness to work in us

 

[preacher4truth]

The language you are using is common to those who wish to deny obedience is our hearts desire.

Soooo...I've denied that truly converted persons desire obedience? I've noted that prescriptive texts that show forth good works, James 2:19, sanctification, Hebrews 12:14, watching doctrine closely, 1 Timothy 4:16 &c are all texts describing the behaviors of a person who is converted. You see them as something a person has to do to get to heaven, i.e., in your false gospel you declare that Christ did not do enough, so man has to do these things. IOW your teaching is amiss. One more time, you cannot distinguish between prescriptive and descriptive texts, but that's a given, you're teaching heresy.

The methodists holiness movement is probably closest to my position, as far as I understand it.

You don't understand it. Your teachings are akin to Roman Catholicism with an admixture of Watchtower heresy.

Now if you feel that is being like a roman catholic, fine, but you have not really been conclusive.

Right. Your teachings have concluded that, I merely pointed it out.

The real point is, Jesus appears to be saying a false teacher does not change, their fruit is
the product of their heart.

Wow, so close, but yet so far.

Therefore if you do not love, do not obey, do not follow, you are not one with Christ.
If you are not one with Christ you are not saved.

Agreed, but this hasn't been your message. Your message has been Christ didn't do enough, therefore, you're a false teacher.

Now this is not the message of the church of Rome lol.

Maybe you've come around, but you'll more than likely revert back to error after coming close to truth. Thus far, all you've taught is that Christ's sacrifice is insufficient - that is the exact teaching of Rome.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, [1 Cor. 15:1-4]

This is what saves. Nothing in my hand do I bring, only to the cross do I cling.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

In risk of losing perhaps a friend here, I too am going to be 'gutsy' in my response to yours.

No place in Scripture remotely suggests patronization of false teachers. Rather, open rebuke for this is the running theme and treatment for this throughout the Scriptures. Note Galatians 1:8-10 concerning the changing of the Gospel to a false gospel, and how solemn and severely these are dealt with for their error.

Before 'love' is brought back up, pitting it against the Scriptures, please keep in mind this is Scriptures way of 'loving' false teachers; they are to be rebuked and held accountable and called upon to repent of their error. Patronizing them or their teachings isn't close to being Biblical, and would make us partakers with them, note in Galatians how Paul treated Peter; that is a biblical example of love of the truth, hatred for heresy, and love of a straying brother.

We should all reexamine the Scriptures on how we specifically deal with the false teachers and false teachings, and it isn't to commend them for being gutsy or to patronize them either. Sentimentalism has no place in dealing with this. Forgive me for being 'gutsy' but I'm making a proper and biblical stand for the truth.

Sometimes,a person will go to lengths to defend their position,pridefully Instead of realizing that we all make mistakes and repenting joyful that Iron sharpens Iron until we all are unified to the full measure of CHRIST.

 

[dcontroversal]

Right, what you have written here that you believe is pure heresy. Thanks for making that clear for any who somehow hadn't yet figured that out.

He has said for sometime that Jesus is not sufficient....just as everyone else has done...as in---> all who have passed through this site claiming that you have to embellish what Christ has done in order to be saved.......

 

[PeterJens]

Okay so missing the point... you deny that Christ did enough to save us? and your reasons are because its WE who have to complete that. No no no no its the Spirits job to apply salvation to our hearts not ours only. The spirit works in our hearts to bring us to repentance so therefore WE repent ONLY because of the SPIRIT. Christ did do enough to save us and the Spirit is convicting people of that truth and therefore transforming hearts of unwillingness to willingness. And then we willingly obey, repent etc etc that you mentioned. Again those things are a response to the ALREADY FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST not a COMPLETION OF THE WORK OF CHRIST. BBBIIIGGGG DIFFEERREEENNNNCEEEEE

"It is finished" meant Jesus has done all He can to open the door and
provide the means of forgiveness and re-establishing communion with us.

If we believe on Christ, if we trust Him He can deliver salvation.
I was emphasising the work that must go on in our hearts to make
this a reality.

If we do not respond, we do not get saved.
Now in a real sense we do not control our response to the message,
the warm glow, the sense of desire, the hunger for a greater reality,
the conviction of our unworthiness.

Now if you down play our response as actually non-existant and our
ability to not walk away, then free will does not exist.

So no matter how small our part in the whole scheme of things,
without it, no salvation.

It has always staggard me, but also how difficult this step really is.
The pride, the fear, the resistance, the impossibility of realisation,
the levels of walking and learning, each small step.

But still so many do not grow, and the actual overcoming and walking
as we should, seems very rare. So my question is what is missing, where
are we going wrong? How is it something so glorious can end in such
a way, or have success but we do not capture it or see it.

It opens the door for heresy and defeat, for discouragement and loss,
for denying the very thing we know is true.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

This is True, for one to GET SAVED. But those who GET SAVED, better start living by what the Word of God tells them to do. Getting SAVED and Being Saved are two different things.

Anyone can GET SAVED, it is a free gift given to anyone who will recieve it. But just because someone accepts Jesus as their Savior and LORD, (SAVED) does not mean they will remain there. That is what Jesus gave the parable of the seeds by the wayside. Remember the seeds upon the rocks. They accepted the Word with JOY, but did not remain in it, did they? Getting Saved is EASY and is a gift to anyone who will receive it. BEING SAVED is a narrow and difficult path, which only a very few will find it, but these same will be wearing the "HOPE of Salvation" as a helmet to help them on that narrow and difficult path that leads to (notice they have not arrived at it, until the end of the path) to Life Everlasting. As long as a person is on the path that leads there, they have not achieved it, it is only if they endure to the end, do they achieve the prize of Everlasting Life. Many claim they are on the narrow and difficult path, not realizing they are indeed on the broad and wide and easy path, which all the FAITH ONLY believers adhere to. Tell me, how is the path that you are on, difficult? If you already have SALVATION? Salvation is at the end of the narrow and difficult path. This generation falsely believe they have already attained the prize of Salvation, because they merely believe, they merely believe they are on the narrow and difficult path, how is that not a broad and easy path that leads to destruction?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[blue_ladybug]

Jesus dying on the cross wasn't enough to save us? What more was He supposed to do?

 

[PeterJens]

Here we have a problem.

I am saved, therefore I need do nothing more, I have arrived, job done, it is sealed.

Or I am saved, therefore I follow, obey, desire, walk, run, commune, work, seek respond
am alive and moving. If I deny these things I die inside, become a withered branch, empty
without substance.

Now this appears to be the two stories presented. So if life is not electric, not wow, what a
King, how do we realise this more, there is a problem.

So another way of expressing this is as a flow from one to the other. But as soon as I do,
I am then a false teacher, a works salvationist. It becomes like a censorship, where to talk
about fruit, about delight, about the glories of the gospel, about righteousness and doing the
right thing, about helping people, seeing opportunity everywhere is boasting and pride.

So I suspect rather than these condemners being saved, they are the opposite, and this
really bugs them, and anything that reminds them of this must be attacked and repressed.
So those who truly come alive are rejected. It seems to work this way here on cc.

Get excited about what Jesus and love mean, and you are a legalist, evil and lost.
So I must conclude the Spirit in them is not the Spirit at work in me and my excitement
at what our King can do in our hearts, is not something they relate to at all.

At all the other levels of my faith and expression this has been true, so why not this
one also. Certainly they are no friends of mine, lol.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus dying on the cross wasn't enough to save us? What more was He supposed to do?

Herein lies the problem. If we do not respond we are not saved. Jesus cannot save us if we
do not open the door, we stay under judgement. He is powerless to do anything else.

Why is it we pray for our friends and relatives to turn to faith, and plead that God would
force their hand, but we know he will not, because this does not save people.

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is True, for one to GET SAVED. But those who GET SAVED, better start living by what the Word of God tells them to do. Getting SAVED and Being Saved are two different things.

Anyone can GET SAVED, it is a free gift given to anyone who will recieve it. But just because someone accepts Jesus as their Savior and LORD, (SAVED) does not mean they will remain there. That is what Jesus gave the parable of the seeds by the wayside. Remember the seeds upon the rocks. They accepted the Word with JOY, but did not remain in it, did they? Getting Saved is EASY and is a gift to anyone who will receive it. BEING SAVED is a narrow and difficult path, which only a very few will find it, but these same will be wearing the "HOPE of Salvation" as a helmet to help them on that narrow and difficult path that leads to (notice they have not arrived at it, until the end of the path) to Life Everlasting. As long as a person is on the path that leads there, they have not achieved it, it is only if they endure to the end, do they achieve the prize of Everlasting Life. Many claim they are on the narrow and difficult path, not realizing they are indeed on the broad and wide and easy path, which all the FAITH ONLY believers adhere to. Tell me, how is the path that you are on, difficult? If you already have SALVATION? Salvation is at the end of the narrow and difficult path. This generation falsely believe they have already attained the prize of Salvation, because they merely believe, they merely believe they are on the narrow and difficult path, how is that not a broad and easy path that leads to destruction?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Another "maintenance worker"....

 

[SovereignGrace]

Dead ppl can't open a door.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus dying on the cross wasn't enough to save us? What more was He supposed to do?

You have to jump through the hoops of religious fanaticism while doing 57 good works a day......or maybe 1 more work....and another work and another work and another work......................I hope you are not one short......!

 

[Billyd]

Here is a message from God"s Word.

1Jn 1:5 And this is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us. MKJV

This is a message, not of requirements for salvation, but the results of salvation. Sin breaks fellowship with God. Confession of sin restores fellowship. God is faithful and just, and He forgives and cleanses. Pay particular attention to the placement of the word "all" in verse 9. In confession our fellowship is restored.

Don't fear the loss of salvation. If you have received it, you still have it. Seek a closer fellowship with Christ.

Peter, in response to your OP question, "Did Christ do enough to save us?" Absolutely. My question is "Did you do enough for Christ to save you?" Did you accept the FREE gift of salvation by grace? That's all it takes. Accepting the free gift not tossing it aside. If you accepted the free gift, open it. Experience the love that comes with it. Share the love that you receive from it.

 

[PeterJens]

Dead ppl can't open a door.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me
Rev 3:20

Now Jesus comes to people, in dreams, by His word, in testimonies and asks this question.
It is as old as christianity itself. And people respond.

Now I have never thought what is the spiritual state of the person, are they saved or not
saved before they are asked. As an evangelist you ask the question and await a response.

Now if you believe you have to be alive to God before you answer, then either only those
who will respond are made alive or you can loose the work if you later refuse.

All I know is people have this spiritual experience, and testify to the presence of Christ in
their life. But it appears some do not know this or understand it.