Does the gift of prophecy include preaching?

[presidente]

Biblical preaching is not confine only to the unbelievers. It is needed by believers as well. Paul did it until midnight. Prophesy includes preaching that is forthtelling.

The KJV departs from its normal pattern by translating that word, from which we get the English 'dialogue' as 'preach.' Other translation say 'taught', 'discoursed', etc.

Paul said God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. He is not talking about believers hearing sermons every Sunday morning.

God bless[/QUOTE]

 

[fredoheaven]

The KJV departs from its normal pattern by translating that word, from which we get the English 'dialogue' as 'preach.' Other translation say 'taught', 'discoursed', etc.

Paul said God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. He is not talking about believers hearing sermons every Sunday morning.

God bless

[/QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with KJV-only thread as you are implying. Just noticed, that sometimes you used KJV where it seems it fits your theology but withdraws from it when it says something against your theology. Luke for the record says of Paul's manner of reasoning is out of scriptures. Question: are you really reasoning out of the scriptures? You know, I have no problem with the preaching of the gospel but somehow you do have a problem with Paul's preaching to believers. That's somehow it's forcing your belief system against what the Holy Spirit inspiration as writer Luke have written.

 

[presidente]

This has nothing to do with KJV-only thread as you are implying. Just noticed, that sometimes you used KJV where it seems it fits your theology but withdraws from it when it says something against your theology. Luke for the record says of Paul's manner of reasoning is out of scriptures. Question: are you really reasoning out of the scriptures? You know, I have no problem with the preaching of the gospel but somehow you do have a problem with Paul's preaching to believers. That's somehow it's forcing your belief system against what the Holy Spirit inspiration as writer Luke have written.

I'm not implying anything about KJV only. I haven't read that thread. I don't believe the canon of scripture was open until 1611. Do you? I use the KJV if I don't feel like putting in the extra effort to cite another translation since you don't have to cite KJV. Sometimes I'll use NKJV. I would avoid KJV if I've done a word study and I think the verse is not well translated, and I might avoid another translation if that is the case.

My point in bringing this up is a lot of people think that you are supposed to go to church and hear one man called 'the pastor' or 'the preacher' 'preach' a sermon, a long talk that lasts about 45 minutes. So they use the odd use of the word 'preach' in Acts 20:9 as evidence for this. Really, the word is teach or discourse. Paul could have been leading a discussion, or he could have been teaching.

Most verses about 'preaching' are about evangelism. The words translated 'preach' either refer to this type of evangelistic proclamation, or appear in contexts where they could mean this but aren't conclusive, as far as I've seen. Acts 20:9 in the KJV is an outlier. We should expect it to say 'teach' or dispute or something along those line like other translations render the word.

Paul did not say go to church and hear one person give a long discourse. He wrote, "Every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." Paul's instructions are for a church meeting where regular members of the body of Christ speak, using their gifts to edify one another. And this is the only long set of instructions we have on what to do in church, except for chapter 11, which tells how NOT to have the Lord's Supper.

There are other verses, like Hebrews 10:24-25, which say to provoke one another to love and to good works, not to forsake assembling, but to exhort one another. Notice it says exhort one another, not sit down quietly and listen to the sermon.

'Let everything be done decently and in order' is about the Lord's order, regarding the type of meeting described in the passage where prophets can prophesy, but should yield the floor to another sitting by who receives a revelation, where ye may all prophesy, and where speaking in tongues and interpretation is allowed to operate in the proper order described in the passage. We should not read in the pulpit-pew, Sunday sermon concept into this verse about order.

And there are people who think that God chose the foolishness of listening to a sermon week after week for the rest of your life to save them that believe, as opposed to thinking that God chose the foolishness of hearing the evangelistic preaching of the Gospel to save them that believe.

 

[fredoheaven]

I'm not implying anything about KJV only. I haven't read that thread. I don't believe the canon of scripture was open until 1611. Do you? I use the KJV if I don't feel like putting in the extra effort to cite another translation since you don't have to cite KJV. Sometimes I'll use NKJV. I would avoid KJV if I've done a word study and I think the verse is not well translated, and I might avoid another translation if that is the case.

My point in bringing this up is a lot of people think that you are supposed to go to church and hear one man called 'the pastor' or 'the preacher' 'preach' a sermon, a long talk that lasts about 45 minutes. So they use the odd use of the word 'preach' in Acts 20:9 as evidence for this. Really, the word is teach or discourse. Paul could have been leading a discussion, or he could have been teaching.

Most verses about 'preaching' are about evangelism. The words translated 'preach' either refer to this type of evangelistic proclamation, or appear in contexts where they could mean this but aren't conclusive, as far as I've seen. Acts 20:9 in the KJV is an outlier. We should expect it to say 'teach' or dispute or something along those line like other translations render the word.

Paul did not say go to church and hear one person give a long discourse. He wrote, "Every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." Paul's instructions are for a church meeting where regular members of the body of Christ speak, using their gifts to edify one another. And this is the only long set of instructions we have on what to do in church, except for chapter 11, which tells how NOT to have the Lord's Supper.

There are other verses, like Hebrews 10:24-25, which say to provoke one another to love and to good works, not to forsake assembling, but to exhort one another. Notice it says exhort one another, not sit down quietly and listen to the sermon.

'Let everything be done decently and in order' is about the Lord's order, regarding the type of meeting described in the passage where prophets can prophesy, but should yield the floor to another sitting by who receives a revelation, where ye may all prophesy, and where speaking in tongues and interpretation is allowed to operate in the proper order described in the passage. We should not read in the pulpit-pew, Sunday sermon concept into this verse about order.

And there are people who think that God chose the foolishness of listening to a sermon week after week for the rest of your life to save them that believe, as opposed to thinking that God chose the foolishness of hearing the evangelistic preaching of the Gospel to save them that believe.

This is it I am saying, you are putting your 'feelings' above God's word. Emotions, experience, or even thrill is not at par with the words of God. I hope you do the reasoning like that of Paul. You say many things here about which I also agreed, however, a skip and hop approach does nothing good. Feelings maybe great but it can be deceiving.

 

[Marcelo]

My point in bringing this up is a lot of people think that you are supposed to go to church and hear one man called 'the pastor' or 'the preacher' 'preach' a sermon, a long talk that lasts about 45 minutes. So they use the odd use of the word 'preach' in Acts 20:9 as evidence for this. Really, the word is teach or discourse. Paul could have been leading a discussion, or he could have been teaching.

You're right! The Greek word διαλεγομένου (dialegomenou) is translated as PREACH in the KJV, but in the NKJV it is translated as (Paul) CONTINUED SPEAKING.

 

[presidente]

This is it I am saying, you are putting your 'feelings' above God's word. Emotions, experience, or even thrill is not at par with the words of God. I hope you do the reasoning like that of Paul. You say many things here about which I also agreed, however, a skip and hop approach does nothing good. Feelings maybe great but it can be deceiving.

Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Where did I say anything at all about feelings? I pointed out a theme in scripture about church meetings pointing out specific teachings in specific texts. If you disagree with my comments about those texts or interpret the texts differently, feel free to point that out. But this response is a total straw man argument.

 

[CS1]

Paul wanted all Christians to prophesy because the one who prophesies builds up the church. What was he mainly talking about? Prediction of future events; revelation of unknown information; or preaching, teaching and exhorting?

in The Context of 1 Cor 12, 13, 14 prophecy or prophesying is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which is preaching the "Word of God". how do we know this because the Holy Spirit would confirm or affirm the word of God to the hearer. how did one know? the end result God :

[FONT=&quot]Psalm 107:20 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
[FONT=&quot]Titus 1:3[/FONT]
But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

[FONT=&quot]Romans 15:19 [/FONT]
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 2:4[/FONT]
God also bearing them witness, both with signsand wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

[/FONT]

 

[Stephen63]

in The Context of 1 Cor 12, 13, 14 prophecy or prophesying is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which is preaching the "Word of God". how do we know this because the Holy Spirit would confirm or affirm the word of God to the hearer. how did one know? the end result God :

Psalm 107:20
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Titus 1:3
But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


Hebrews 2:4
God also bearing them witness, both with signsand wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Thanks for showing up in the BDF, CS1, 1 1/2 hours before I shut my thread down.

 

[Marcelo]

in The Context of 1 Cor 12, 13, 14 prophecy or prophesying is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which is preaching the "Word of God".

I haven't decided yet on which side of the fence I will land. Half of Bible teachers say that inspired preaching is prophecy and the other half say it is not.

Last night I had an insight on how to demonstrate that PROPHECY probably includes PREACHING: In 1 COR 14 Paul addresses church discipline: "Two or three may speak in tongues, and two or three may prophesy". But what about preaching sermons? Did Paul forget to give instructions about preaching the word of God? I don't believe so because the sermon is the most important part of the meeting. Paul could not have forgotten to establish rules about sermons and this is the reason why I believe that PREACHING SERMONS is included in LET TWO OR THREE PROPHETS SPEAK (1 COR 14:29).

 

[presidente]

Last night I had an insight on how to demonstrate that PROPHECY probably includes PREACHING: In 1 COR 14 Paul addresses church discipline: "Two or three may speak in tongues, and two or three may prophesy". But what about preaching sermons? Did Paul forget to give instructions about preaching the word of God? I don't believe so because the sermon is the most important part of the meeting.

Bold emphasis mine.

That's kind of like saying the apostles used wine for communion because coca-cola hadn't been invented yet. It's forcing our own opinions and values on them, instead of accepting theirs. Who said the sermon is the most important part of the meeting? That's a nearly 500 year old Protestant tradition, that the sermon is the most important part of the meeting.

Look in I Corinthians 14. There is no reference to one main sermon. Look at verse 26. Every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

That's how they ministered the word in church in Biblical times. Multiple speakers. Singing, teaching, prophesying, tongues and interpretation. It doesn't have to come through a long 45 minute sermon. And notice it does mention teaching, or 'a doctrine' in KJV English.

Paul could not have forgotten to establish rules about sermons and this is the reason why I believe that PREACHING SERMONS is included in LET TWO OR THREE PROPHETS SPEAK (1 COR 14:29).

Isn't it better to accept what Paul says and let that adjust our belief system than to bend what Paul wrote to our current system and way of thinking?

Notice in verse 30, prophesying is revelatory. If this were talking about sermons, does it make sense that another sermonizer be allowed to speak in the middle of the first preacher's sermon? ('..if a revelation cometh to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace.')t makes sense with the view of prophesying that it is basically the same thing as prophesying in the Old Testament. If the Spirit is speaking through a prophet, and one sitting by receives a revelation, the message from the Spirit can continue through the second speaker.

 

[Marcelo]

Look in I Corinthians 14. There is no reference to one main sermon.

That's what I said: There is no reference to sermons. Why? Because SERMON (the part of the service dedicated to teaching, exhorting, etc, so that believers are encouraged to be more diligent in the faith) is included in PROPHECY.

 

[CS1]

I haven't decided yet on which side of the fence I will land. Half of Bible teachers say that inspired preaching is prophecy and the other half say it is not.

Last night I had an insight on how to demonstrate that PROPHECY probably includes PREACHING: In 1 COR 14 Paul addresses church discipline: "Two or three may speak in tongues, and two or three may prophesy". But what about preaching sermons? Did Paul forget to give instructions about preaching the word of God? I don't believe so because the sermon is the most important part of the meeting. Paul could not have forgotten to establish rules about sermons and this is the reason why I believe that PREACHING SERMONS is included in LET TWO OR THREE PROPHETS SPEAK (1 COR 14:29).

the
context
of the word is what must be seen. Prophesying can be both sides of the fence it is what best fits the context of the verse in which it was used in. Preaching is proclaiming the word under the inspiration of Gods Spirit which can also be prophesying which is speaking to a specific thing under the inspiration of the Spirit of God if the text says they Preached the Word of God that could be very general statement we have to see the "authorial intent of the verse passage, chapter , book, and Bible. the Contextual meaning. "He began Prophesying" or "He preached righteousness" etc.. the word has a systematic range depending on how it is used. Prophesying can be foretelling but not in ever Bible verse.

 

[CS1]

Thanks for showing up in the BDF, CS1, 1 1/2 hours before I shut my thread down.

lol your welcome brother

 

[Marcelo]

Preaching is proclaiming the word under the inspiration of Gods Spirit.

That's what I think! If we don't bear this in mind we'll never figure out what Paul really means by PROPHECY in 1 COR 14. A modern day sermon, put together in advance using a computer program, for example, cannot be called PROPHECY; this is obvious. But in the first century the word of God was (normally) preached by the Holy Spirit - the preacher would act as God's spokesperson.

 

[presidente]

Biblical preaching is not confine only to the unbelievers. It is needed by believers as well. Paul did it until midnight. Prophesy includes preaching that is forthtelling.

The KJV breaks from its normal pattern in translating that word, the word from which we get the English 'dialogue' as 'preached' in Acts 20. Other translations say 'taught' or 'discourse' or something along those lines. 'Preach' is usually used in the KJV in the context of evangelism, used to translate three Greek words that are used to refer to evangelistic preaching.

We shouldn't read the Sunday sermon tradition into scripture.

 

[presidente]

Biblical preaching is not confine only to the unbelievers. It is needed by believers as well. Paul did it until midnight. Prophesy includes preaching that is forthtelling.

God bless

When Paul tells believers what to do in church (e.g. I Corinthians 14:26), he doesn't mention 'preaching.' He does mention doctrine/teaching and prophesying.

Paul makes a distinction between prophesying and teaching in I Corinthians 12. Prophets are a different group from pastors and teachers in Ephesians 4. Prophesying and teaching are two different gifts in Romans 12.

Peter, describe prophecies in the Old Testament said holy men spake as they were moved by the Spirit. Paul implies prophesying is revelatory in I Corinthians 14, when he says 'if a revelation cometh to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one....' A revelation comes to someone on the spot.

 

[fredoheaven]

When Paul tells believers what to do in church (e.g. I Corinthians 14:26), he doesn't mention 'preaching.' He does mention doctrine/teaching and prophesying.

Paul makes a distinction between prophesying and teaching in I Corinthians 12. Prophets are a different group from pastors and teachers in Ephesians 4. Prophesying and teaching are two different gifts in Romans 12.

Peter, describe prophecies in the Old Testament said holy men spake as they were moved by the Spirit. Paul implies prophesying is revelatory in I Corinthians 14, when he says 'if a revelation cometh to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one....' A revelation comes to someone on the spot.

Umm, since you do not want a scriptures that says believers too needed preaching, what about doing 'word study' of the English preach.

Now what I am trying to demonstrate to you is that to prophesy includes preaching. By using scriptures, there is a record.

 

[fredoheaven]

The KJV breaks from its normal pattern in translating that word, the word from which we get the English 'dialogue' as 'preached' in Acts 20. Other translations say 'taught' or 'discourse' or something along those lines. 'Preach' is usually used in the KJV in the context of evangelism, used to translate three Greek words that are used to refer to evangelistic preaching.

We shouldn't read the Sunday sermon tradition into scripture.

Ho, ho,

The KjV is not alone in the translating the word you are referring to. The New Living Translation says ‘preaching’, the Webster Bible Translation(WEB) has the word ‘preach’, the Jubille 2000, the KJ2000 Bible, the American KJV as well as the Weymouth NT has the word ‘preach’.

Actually, the word ‘dialogue’ is a poor translation since this is not what happen in Acts 20. Discourse is impossible to fit the context as well. BTW, the English dialogue must be transliteration and not a translation.

God bless

 

[presidente]

Ho, ho,

The KjV is not alone in the translating the word you are referring to. The New Living Translation says ‘preaching’, the Webster Bible Translation(WEB) has the word ‘preach’, the Jubille 2000, the KJ2000 Bible, the American KJV as well as the Weymouth NT has the word ‘preach’.

Actually, the word ‘dialogue’ is a poor translation since this is not what happen in Acts 20. Discourse is impossible to fit the context as well. BTW, the English dialogue must be transliteration and not a translation.

Dialogue is an English word derived from it. Some translations say 'taught.' You can look up uses of the word using BlueLetterBible.

 

[fredoheaven]

Dialogue is an English word derived from it. Some translations say 'taught.' You can look up uses of the word using BlueLetterBible.

Dependent on the Blueletter bible? that's fine but I don't ultimately depend with that references. I study the word. Okay, dialogue is an English word originated(transliteration) from it yet to say it was not true to translation is quite wrong. You cannot translate a word for word. This would depend on the context.