Roughsoul, I think you have concluded accurately. A few years ago I would have spent hours posting in these forums trying to educate people about the truth in the scriptures. Since everybody else also thinks they have it figured out, they are all here for basically the same reason. I don't think that anybody is trying to learn as much as they are trying to get others to agree with what they believe to be true. Take some advice, don't spend hours in attempts to change peoples minds because everybody thinks they are right. I'm not saying this for any other reason than it looks as though you spent a lot of time on your posts. This is time that you won't get back, and most people here are set in their beliefs. God has revealed so many things to me but I realized, nobody really cares what you know, they just want to believe what they want to believe.
Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ.
How many people who are justified will end up being glorified? Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.
Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.
*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."
Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.
Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.
Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the "corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).
*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.
Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
Faith perfected by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Nothing here about salvation by works.
So how much obedience does it take? How much obedience must we accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? We are saved by true faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and true faith results in obeying God. Faith is the root of salvation and obeying God after we have been saved through faith is the fruit.
How many people who are justified will end up being glorified? Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.
Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.
*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."
Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.
Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.
Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the "corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).
*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.
Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
Faith perfected by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Nothing here about salvation by works.
So how much obedience does it take? How much obedience must we accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? We are saved by true faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and true faith results in obeying God. Faith is the root of salvation and obeying God after we have been saved through faith is the fruit.
Thank you for the advice but this was not wasted I spent all night learning and praying. And finally got to put it all together in a paper that I saved for future reference. And I am not catering to the ones who are deaf but to the ones that God pulls to the truth. Some people believe without ever questioning what they believe to be accurate. They just go with what sounds nice and easy.
Experience. There are many here who have tried this in a blunt way and failed deeply.
The reason is not doing things at a heart level but an intellectual level.
If you grow up in a church with christian parents and only with christian friends, this
easily happens. You are almost a born christian, and being a sinner almost passes you by.
People then become hyper legalists, and live in condemnation and hypocracy, not knowing
why it fails or how. The internal life does not match the external behaviour.
So it is not as simple as you are making out, which is a problem, because when you have
seriously hurting people who as far as they know are walking in obedience the answers need
to be deeper.
The reason is not doing things at a heart level but an intellectual level.
If you grow up in a church with christian parents and only with christian friends, this
easily happens. You are almost a born christian, and being a sinner almost passes you by.
People then become hyper legalists, and live in condemnation and hypocracy, not knowing
why it fails or how. The internal life does not match the external behaviour.
So it is not as simple as you are making out, which is a problem, because when you have
seriously hurting people who as far as they know are walking in obedience the answers need
to be deeper.
Faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation saves (Ephesians 2:8,9). Empty profession of faith that merely claims to be genuine but remains "alone" in producing works, thus demonstrating it's not genuine faith but dead faith does not save (James 2:14).
There are people who profess faith whose faith was never firmly rooted and established in the first place. You are not OSAS IF you were "never truly saved to begin with." There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Instead of having genuine faith, there are those who instead have a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away, as in the parable of the sower.
There are people who profess faith whose faith was never firmly rooted and established in the first place. You are not OSAS IF you were "never truly saved to begin with." There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Instead of having genuine faith, there are those who instead have a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away, as in the parable of the sower.
Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible) - For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Repentance precedes believing the gospel. Confession is an expression of faith and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism and obeying God throughout the Christian life FOLLOWS having been saved through faith. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. You sound like someone who attends the church of Christ.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Repentance precedes believing the gospel. Confession is an expression of faith and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism and obeying God throughout the Christian life FOLLOWS having been saved through faith. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. You sound like someone who attends the church of Christ.
This is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us.
Jesus wanted to impress on this man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation by his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could never part with his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.
If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying; keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Jesus knows the hearts of all men right? Jesus responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or Nicodemus or this person the same way did He? Yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation through faith, not works.
I often hear Roman Catholics and Mormons quote this verse in an effort to try and prove that salvation is by works.
The word "keep" (His commandments) comes from the Greek word "tereo" (Strong's #5083) and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless perfect obedience to all of Christ's commandments 100% of the time. Keeping His commandments is descriptive of a believer (Christian) and not a prerequisite to become saved. The rich young ruler did not keep His commandments. He trusted in his riches and refused to place his faith in Christ for salvation. He was an unbeliever. 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, IF (demonstrative evidence) we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Jesus wanted to impress on this man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation by his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could never part with his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.
If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying; keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Jesus knows the hearts of all men right? Jesus responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or Nicodemus or this person the same way did He? Yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation through faith, not works.
I often hear Roman Catholics and Mormons quote this verse in an effort to try and prove that salvation is by works.
The word "keep" (His commandments) comes from the Greek word "tereo" (Strong's #5083) and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless perfect obedience to all of Christ's commandments 100% of the time. Keeping His commandments is descriptive of a believer (Christian) and not a prerequisite to become saved. The rich young ruler did not keep His commandments. He trusted in his riches and refused to place his faith in Christ for salvation. He was an unbeliever. 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, IF (demonstrative evidence) we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
You have faith, and I have works.”[b]Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.[c] 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.
20Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
Good works comes from genuine faith. Together they are united.
20Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
Good works comes from genuine faith. Together they are united.
There are none.........they all say that works are the result of salvation that one already possesses........Abraham was justified before God by faith without works.......His faith was seen by men based upon the works that were produced because he was saved.....workers for will find out when they stand before God and boast of their right to enter based upon their wonderful works in his name....only to be cast........