-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Just to complicate things even more their are partial Preterists who believe that the second coming is still future.
Being an advocate of the Pre Trib position is just the tip of the iceberg. It is the most vocal part of the whole
Darby/Scofield Baggage. that has entrapped Americans for the best part of two hundred years. I say Americans because most of those who are sold on it live there. The ironic thing about it is Darby was English and founder of the Plymouth Brethren movement here. We still have the Brethren here but they form a small part of the evangelical movement. If it wasnt for Scofield and his notes the whole Pre Trib Dispensational system would have died a death along with Darby himself.
Being an advocate of the Pre Trib position is just the tip of the iceberg. It is the most vocal part of the whole
Darby/Scofield Baggage. that has entrapped Americans for the best part of two hundred years. I say Americans because most of those who are sold on it live there. The ironic thing about it is Darby was English and founder of the Plymouth Brethren movement here. We still have the Brethren here but they form a small part of the evangelical movement. If it wasnt for Scofield and his notes the whole Pre Trib Dispensational system would have died a death along with Darby himself.
What most makes me believe the millennium is literal (besides a literal interpretation of scripture) is that it was God's intention for man to have dominion over this physical creation. But we all know what happened to that plan. The purpose of the Messiah/Christ is to restore all that was lost back to what God intended. To fulfill God's intentions in creation, then Christ has to have physical dominion over this physical creation.
M
I couldn't agree more. And the whole personal history of Scofield...that is one HUGE can of worms also. Very shady bunch that surrounded him.
M
I would have to make the argument that it is spectacularly obvious the events of the seven seals need to be taken in sequence.
God has gone to the trouble of actually numbering the events. Hence, the first seal comes before the second seal, the second seal comes before the third seal, and so on. The events of the sixth seal come after the first five seals which, again, God has gone to the trouble of actually numbering. Don't think it could get any clearer.
We can see that the rich and powerful do not scramble for the "rocks and the caves" until the sixth seal. They are not running for the caves back at the first seal.
It is also at this point that there occur these great cosmic disturbances, the sun and the moon being darkened...and it seems quite clear John is referring to the same OT passages which Jesus referred to in His Olivet Discourse...these same cosmic disturbances which occur just moments before the pre-"Day of the Lord" rapture/gathering which Jesus describes as happening at the end of the great tribulation, deep inside the second half of Daniel's "70th Week".
The aorist tense is flexible depending on the context. Context is all-important. Mark 14:41 "the hour is come" (aorist tense) were Jesus' words in the garden of Gethsemane, referring to His coming crucifixion. Rev.19:7 "the marriage of the Lamb is come" (aorist) refers to the impending wedding of the Lamb.
The context of Rev. 6 with it's plainly numbered seals...is blatantly obvious. The wrath is about to commence. The wrath of the world and the Devil has just been completed and now God will pour out His wrath.
God has gone to the trouble of actually numbering the events. Hence, the first seal comes before the second seal, the second seal comes before the third seal, and so on. The events of the sixth seal come after the first five seals which, again, God has gone to the trouble of actually numbering. Don't think it could get any clearer.
We can see that the rich and powerful do not scramble for the "rocks and the caves" until the sixth seal. They are not running for the caves back at the first seal.
It is also at this point that there occur these great cosmic disturbances, the sun and the moon being darkened...and it seems quite clear John is referring to the same OT passages which Jesus referred to in His Olivet Discourse...these same cosmic disturbances which occur just moments before the pre-"Day of the Lord" rapture/gathering which Jesus describes as happening at the end of the great tribulation, deep inside the second half of Daniel's "70th Week".
The aorist tense is flexible depending on the context. Context is all-important. Mark 14:41 "the hour is come" (aorist tense) were Jesus' words in the garden of Gethsemane, referring to His coming crucifixion. Rev.19:7 "the marriage of the Lamb is come" (aorist) refers to the impending wedding of the Lamb.
The context of Rev. 6 with it's plainly numbered seals...is blatantly obvious. The wrath is about to commence. The wrath of the world and the Devil has just been completed and now God will pour out His wrath.
I am a Preterist, by definition, but I have heard Preterists say things that I don't believe.
I want to say upfront that I do see scriptures that cause problems with my eschatology. 2 Thessalonians 2, for example, seems to point to a later date than I feel most scripture points to. I readily admit this to be a scripture that I would like to understand more clearly.
I believe that Jesus and the Apostles proclaimed a quicker fulfillment than most Christians believe in today.
I believe that the greatest abomination in earth history was when God's Chosen turned over Immanuel (God with us) over to the Romans to be hung on a tree and saying we have no King but Caesar.
The Abomination that causes desolation.
I would also like to point out that many say that there is only one mass resurrection, but Matt 27:52-53 says, "[FONT="]52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. [/FONT]I believe that this is referred to in Ezekiel 37. If Paul is referring to a resurrection that had not occurred (at the time that he wrote 2 Thessalonians), which he seems to be, then that would be two separate resurrections.
I do not hold a view of the 1,000 year reign. I have theories, but nothing that I hold to strongly enough to proclaim.
I think that one has to reach to claim that Jesus was referring to another generation than the one He was speaking to.
I find it unacceptable to place 2,000 years between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel 9.
I believe that Revelation means "soon", "quickly", and "there will be delay no longer".
I would love to discuss these things with people who have actually studied the bible, but most really haven't studied and if they are well studied they either flee or refuse to have a civil, back and forth discussion.
PS I had never heard the term "Preterist" before I was labeled as one on CC.
PPS I am not calling Jesus the Abomination, but Caiaphas/the Jews standing before Pilate (which was forbidden under the Law) and this event did, by the way, put an end to the sacrifice-along with the destruction of the Temple.
I want to say upfront that I do see scriptures that cause problems with my eschatology. 2 Thessalonians 2, for example, seems to point to a later date than I feel most scripture points to. I readily admit this to be a scripture that I would like to understand more clearly.
I believe that Jesus and the Apostles proclaimed a quicker fulfillment than most Christians believe in today.
I believe that the greatest abomination in earth history was when God's Chosen turned over Immanuel (God with us) over to the Romans to be hung on a tree and saying we have no King but Caesar.
The Abomination that causes desolation.
I would also like to point out that many say that there is only one mass resurrection, but Matt 27:52-53 says, "[FONT="]52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. [/FONT]I believe that this is referred to in Ezekiel 37. If Paul is referring to a resurrection that had not occurred (at the time that he wrote 2 Thessalonians), which he seems to be, then that would be two separate resurrections.
I do not hold a view of the 1,000 year reign. I have theories, but nothing that I hold to strongly enough to proclaim.
I think that one has to reach to claim that Jesus was referring to another generation than the one He was speaking to.
I find it unacceptable to place 2,000 years between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel 9.
I believe that Revelation means "soon", "quickly", and "there will be delay no longer".
I would love to discuss these things with people who have actually studied the bible, but most really haven't studied and if they are well studied they either flee or refuse to have a civil, back and forth discussion.
PS I had never heard the term "Preterist" before I was labeled as one on CC.
PPS I am not calling Jesus the Abomination, but Caiaphas/the Jews standing before Pilate (which was forbidden under the Law) and this event did, by the way, put an end to the sacrifice-along with the destruction of the Temple.
Hello Mattoofor,
I am in complete agreement with the what you posted above, for I have always proclaimed that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in chronological order.
The reason that all people and not just the rich and powerful, will be calling to the rocks and the mountains to fall on them, is because 1) there will be a great earthquake that will move the islands and mountains, stirring them out of their places, 2) the sun will be darkened and the moon will be turned blood red, 3) stars (meteorites/asteroids) will be falling to the earth and 4) the sky will be rolled up like a scroll revealing God in heaven sitting on his throne, which is why people want the rocks to fall on them in order to get out of God's line of sight and because of the severity of those events. But those events at the 6th seal, do not exclude seals 1 thru 4 as not being included in God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One opening the seals i.e. He is responsible for the results.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are meant as three sets of seven judgments and are not to be divided. The words "has come" is better understood as what has already taken place and what is yet to come.
First of all, the reference to the events in the Olivet Discourse where the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall to the earth, though similar to the 6th seal, are not the same events and here is why.
As Jesus is responding to the disciples question of "when will this happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age." In Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes Daniel 9:27 regarding the setting up of the abomination, which would put his description of his end-time events leading up to his return as being in the middle of the seven years. Matt.24:29-31 takes place 3 1/2 years later with Christ returning to the earth to end the age.
That said, Matt.24:29 cannot possibly be synonymous with the 6th seal of Revelation and that because according to verses 29-31, Jesus immediately returns to the earth in close proximity to the events of the sun, moon and stars. Yet according to Revelation there is still the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments still to take place. The seven seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments could not possibly fit in between verse 29 and 31.
In addition, though Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal are similar, they are slightly different. In Matt.24:29 the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven to the earth, but at the 6th seal an earthquake is mentioned with the sun being darkened and the moon turning blood red. These details should not be overlooked.
Conclusion: There is no earthquake mentioned in Matt.24:29, no mention of the moon turning blood red and no room for the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments to take place.
I am in complete agreement with the what you posted above, for I have always proclaimed that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in chronological order.
The reason that all people and not just the rich and powerful, will be calling to the rocks and the mountains to fall on them, is because 1) there will be a great earthquake that will move the islands and mountains, stirring them out of their places, 2) the sun will be darkened and the moon will be turned blood red, 3) stars (meteorites/asteroids) will be falling to the earth and 4) the sky will be rolled up like a scroll revealing God in heaven sitting on his throne, which is why people want the rocks to fall on them in order to get out of God's line of sight and because of the severity of those events. But those events at the 6th seal, do not exclude seals 1 thru 4 as not being included in God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One opening the seals i.e. He is responsible for the results.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are meant as three sets of seven judgments and are not to be divided. The words "has come" is better understood as what has already taken place and what is yet to come.
First of all, the reference to the events in the Olivet Discourse where the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall to the earth, though similar to the 6th seal, are not the same events and here is why.
As Jesus is responding to the disciples question of "when will this happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age." In Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes Daniel 9:27 regarding the setting up of the abomination, which would put his description of his end-time events leading up to his return as being in the middle of the seven years. Matt.24:29-31 takes place 3 1/2 years later with Christ returning to the earth to end the age.
That said, Matt.24:29 cannot possibly be synonymous with the 6th seal of Revelation and that because according to verses 29-31, Jesus immediately returns to the earth in close proximity to the events of the sun, moon and stars. Yet according to Revelation there is still the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments still to take place. The seven seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments could not possibly fit in between verse 29 and 31.
In addition, though Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal are similar, they are slightly different. In Matt.24:29 the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven to the earth, but at the 6th seal an earthquake is mentioned with the sun being darkened and the moon turning blood red. These details should not be overlooked.
Conclusion: There is no earthquake mentioned in Matt.24:29, no mention of the moon turning blood red and no room for the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments to take place.
Last edited:
Hello Timeline,
One thing very important to remember in regards to interpreting end-time events that Jesus said, "On this Rock (himself) I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." All of the promises that Jesus made to his disciples are to the entire church, which he is still in the process of building. Full Preterists have all of Matt.24 and the events of Revelation as already having taken place, which would leave the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18, which is our blessed hope. What I am saying is, if you have all of those events taking place and Christ returning around 70 AD, then the church that existed during the first century would be the only ones to partake of the promises of Christ, effectively excluding the majority of the church from 2nd century to present.
Just as with all scripture, we cannot make assumptions based on our own beliefs, but we must rely on scripture in order to come to a proper conclusion. That said, both Daniel and Jesus said that the abomination would be set up in the temple, in the holy place. Therefore, the abomination cannot refer to Jesus being crucified. Furthermore, the word "bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as "a reeking stench that goes up before God. An detestable thing." The setting up of the abomination is what cause the desolation (fleeing) of Israel out into the desert where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years of that 70th seven. Consequently, none of these events have taken place.
Those people who came back to life after Christ's resurrection died again, as they were resurrected in the same manner as Lazarus and Tabitha, which was in their mortal bodies and who died again. So far, no one has resurrected in their immortal and glorified body except for Christ, with the entire church being next.
If you are not believing in a literal 1,000 reign of Christ which takes place after he returns to the earth to end the age, then you are simply not believing what scripture says. From Rev.20:1-7, the words "a thousand years" are written six times. During that time, scripture states that Jesus will rule on earth from Jerusalem, the church and those great tribulation saints will rule with Christ during that thousand years, Satan and his angels will be bound in the Abyss for that same thousand years and he will be released at the end of the thousand years and the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until after the end of the thousand years. There is absolutely nothing in the context of the scripture that would lead the reader to apply a symbolic or allegorical meaning to the phrase "a thousand years."
PS I am well studied and will not flee, promise.
One thing very important to remember in regards to interpreting end-time events that Jesus said, "On this Rock (himself) I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." All of the promises that Jesus made to his disciples are to the entire church, which he is still in the process of building. Full Preterists have all of Matt.24 and the events of Revelation as already having taken place, which would leave the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18, which is our blessed hope. What I am saying is, if you have all of those events taking place and Christ returning around 70 AD, then the church that existed during the first century would be the only ones to partake of the promises of Christ, effectively excluding the majority of the church from 2nd century to present.
Just as with all scripture, we cannot make assumptions based on our own beliefs, but we must rely on scripture in order to come to a proper conclusion. That said, both Daniel and Jesus said that the abomination would be set up in the temple, in the holy place. Therefore, the abomination cannot refer to Jesus being crucified. Furthermore, the word "bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as "a reeking stench that goes up before God. An detestable thing." The setting up of the abomination is what cause the desolation (fleeing) of Israel out into the desert where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years of that 70th seven. Consequently, none of these events have taken place.
Those people who came back to life after Christ's resurrection died again, as they were resurrected in the same manner as Lazarus and Tabitha, which was in their mortal bodies and who died again. So far, no one has resurrected in their immortal and glorified body except for Christ, with the entire church being next.
If you are not believing in a literal 1,000 reign of Christ which takes place after he returns to the earth to end the age, then you are simply not believing what scripture says. From Rev.20:1-7, the words "a thousand years" are written six times. During that time, scripture states that Jesus will rule on earth from Jerusalem, the church and those great tribulation saints will rule with Christ during that thousand years, Satan and his angels will be bound in the Abyss for that same thousand years and he will be released at the end of the thousand years and the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until after the end of the thousand years. There is absolutely nothing in the context of the scripture that would lead the reader to apply a symbolic or allegorical meaning to the phrase "a thousand years."
PS I am well studied and will not flee, promise.
M
(?) The text clearly states point-blank that they seek refuge in the rocks...not because of the earthquake...but to "hide from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb".
They had not been hiding in the rocks until this time because God's wrath had not made an appearance until this time.
I would argue it is more clarifying to refer to 1) the seals and 2) the contents of the scroll. It creates a demarcation. When the seven seals have been broken, only THEN are the contents of the scroll released. The contents of the scroll are God's wrath. The seals are only leading up to God's wrath.
Wait a minute. You made a leap there...in concluding Jesus' return to earth is a full "3 1/2 years" after the mid-point event, "the abomination of desolation".
Think carefully: Jesus quotes from these famous OT passages about the sun and the moon darkening and explains these cosmic disturbances occur mere moments before He sends His angels to "gather the elect" in a supernatural translation (i.e a rapture).
But these same OT passages make it clear the Day of the Lord does not begin until AFTER the occurrence of these great cosmic disturbances:
Joel 2:31 -- "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
Therefore, these cosmic disturbances are happening well back from the end of the 3 1/2 years...in order to make room for the time of God's wrath.
Not to mention...if people living in those last days (probably us, by the way!) knew the Lord would be arriving 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation...they would therefore know the very day of the Lord's return...something He has specifically said is NOT possible. No one knows "the day or hour".
Therefore, the Lord CANNOT be returning after 1260 days...and add that to the fact of Joel 2:31 clearly indicating ALL the events of the Day of the Lord only follow AFTER these spectacular cosmic disturbances.
Therefore, these cosmic events MUST occur sometime during the second half of the 70th Week and WELL before the end of those 1260 days.
Just because the various "cosmic disturbance" passages in the OT and NT do not use the exact same words to describe the various facets...isn't an indication these are different events.
Even right within a single chapter, Joel 2, where these events are described twice (verse 10 and verses 30-31), there are a number of differences. Verse 10 merely says the moon becomes "dark". Verses 30-31 describe it as turning blood-red.
It the same with the synoptic Gospels (Matthew,Mark, Luke) where many of the same stories occur in all three books but invariably use different wording and include certain aspects that are NOT included in the other two accounts. No one concludes these are three different stories...but merely the same story described from slightly different perspectives.
Joel 2 - verse 10:
Before them the earth quakes,
The heavens tremble,
The sun and the moon grow dark
And the stars lose their brightness.
Joel 2 - verses 30-31:
I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
They had not been hiding in the rocks until this time because God's wrath had not made an appearance until this time.
I would argue it is more clarifying to refer to 1) the seals and 2) the contents of the scroll. It creates a demarcation. When the seven seals have been broken, only THEN are the contents of the scroll released. The contents of the scroll are God's wrath. The seals are only leading up to God's wrath.
Wait a minute. You made a leap there...in concluding Jesus' return to earth is a full "3 1/2 years" after the mid-point event, "the abomination of desolation".
Think carefully: Jesus quotes from these famous OT passages about the sun and the moon darkening and explains these cosmic disturbances occur mere moments before He sends His angels to "gather the elect" in a supernatural translation (i.e a rapture).
But these same OT passages make it clear the Day of the Lord does not begin until AFTER the occurrence of these great cosmic disturbances:
Joel 2:31 -- "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
Therefore, these cosmic disturbances are happening well back from the end of the 3 1/2 years...in order to make room for the time of God's wrath.
Not to mention...if people living in those last days (probably us, by the way!) knew the Lord would be arriving 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation...they would therefore know the very day of the Lord's return...something He has specifically said is NOT possible. No one knows "the day or hour".
Therefore, the Lord CANNOT be returning after 1260 days...and add that to the fact of Joel 2:31 clearly indicating ALL the events of the Day of the Lord only follow AFTER these spectacular cosmic disturbances.
Therefore, these cosmic events MUST occur sometime during the second half of the 70th Week and WELL before the end of those 1260 days.
Just because the various "cosmic disturbance" passages in the OT and NT do not use the exact same words to describe the various facets...isn't an indication these are different events.
Even right within a single chapter, Joel 2, where these events are described twice (verse 10 and verses 30-31), there are a number of differences. Verse 10 merely says the moon becomes "dark". Verses 30-31 describe it as turning blood-red.
It the same with the synoptic Gospels (Matthew,Mark, Luke) where many of the same stories occur in all three books but invariably use different wording and include certain aspects that are NOT included in the other two accounts. No one concludes these are three different stories...but merely the same story described from slightly different perspectives.
Joel 2 - verse 10:
Before them the earth quakes,
The heavens tremble,
The sun and the moon grow dark
And the stars lose their brightness.
Joel 2 - verses 30-31:
I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
Last edited by a moderator:
M
Guys, guys, guys.
My daughter read the Olivet Discourse when she was 12-years-old. Took her fifteen minutes. Afterwards, she was able to routinely understand all the main details of Jesus' return: The disciples asked Jesus what was going to happen. Jesus told them to live with an expectation of seeing the abomination of desolation...after that the great tribulation...after that the gathering of the elect.
bada-bing bada-boom...done
All these big-shot 'professional' theologians, all the big-shot book authors, all the big-shot 'super-pastors'...don't amount to a hill of beans up against the simple authoritative words of the Lord Jesus.
Matthew 25's Parable of the Ten Virgins warns that we need to specifically prepare, specifically for the time of "darkness" (i.e. the great tribulation) by "filling our lamps with oil" to be able to step into that darkness that is the "great tribulation".
That's just my little 'heads-up'. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
My daughter read the Olivet Discourse when she was 12-years-old. Took her fifteen minutes. Afterwards, she was able to routinely understand all the main details of Jesus' return: The disciples asked Jesus what was going to happen. Jesus told them to live with an expectation of seeing the abomination of desolation...after that the great tribulation...after that the gathering of the elect.
bada-bing bada-boom...done
All these big-shot 'professional' theologians, all the big-shot book authors, all the big-shot 'super-pastors'...don't amount to a hill of beans up against the simple authoritative words of the Lord Jesus.
Matthew 25's Parable of the Ten Virgins warns that we need to specifically prepare, specifically for the time of "darkness" (i.e. the great tribulation) by "filling our lamps with oil" to be able to step into that darkness that is the "great tribulation".
That's just my little 'heads-up'. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Until you come to the understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, you will not understand end-time events and neither will your daughter.
In the Olivet Discourse, the disciples may have been the ones who asked him the question, but it was not them that would be there to experience it, but that last generation. Furthermore, by the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place with in the temple and the resulting fleeing out into the wilderness, the beast standing in the temple proclaiming to be God, etc., it is all directed to that generation of Israel whom God will be dealing with in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens.
By claiming that those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 as being the church, you ignore other scriptures which says that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Prior to Christ's return to the earth demonstrated in Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21, the wrath of God must first take place leading up to the Lord's return. Therefore, the church cannot be who is in view as being collected in Matt.24:31 and that because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God.
Those who are to be collected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, will be those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. who will have made it through that last seven years and specifically through the last 3 1/2 years, which Jesus referred to as "the great tribulation." When the angels collect them they will be in their mortal bodies. They will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. These are those that the angels collect. It is not the gathering of the church (rapture).
You are also not taking into account the fact that Rev.19:6-8 demonstrates that the bride/church is receiving her fine clothes, white and clean in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and then are seen wearing that clothing in Rev.19:14 as they follow the Lord out of heaven. If you are receiving clothing and following the Lord out of heaven, you would have had to already be in heaven. Those riding on white horses are also positively identified as the believers in Christ that will have previously been gathered referred to as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers."
You have to compare and cross-reference all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion and having your daughter just read the Olivet Discourse ain't gonna cut it.
You are greatly mistaken about the parable of the ten virgins as well. If you will notice, in the parable the five who were wise brought extra oil with them, which represents "watchful readiness." Those who had extra oil (were ready) when the bridegroom appeared, those five went into the wedding feast, which takes place in heaven (Rev.19:6-8). Therefore, the parable of the ten virgins is not demonstrating that the church as needing oil in order to make it through the tribulation period, but because they are ready, when the bridegroom comes, they are taken to the Father's house where the wedding of the Lamb takes place. The door is then shut and the other five can't get in, for that day will have closed on them like a trap and that because of their unreadiness.
You are not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which are two separate events.
In the Olivet Discourse, the disciples may have been the ones who asked him the question, but it was not them that would be there to experience it, but that last generation. Furthermore, by the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place with in the temple and the resulting fleeing out into the wilderness, the beast standing in the temple proclaiming to be God, etc., it is all directed to that generation of Israel whom God will be dealing with in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens.
By claiming that those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 as being the church, you ignore other scriptures which says that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Prior to Christ's return to the earth demonstrated in Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21, the wrath of God must first take place leading up to the Lord's return. Therefore, the church cannot be who is in view as being collected in Matt.24:31 and that because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God.
Those who are to be collected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, will be those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. who will have made it through that last seven years and specifically through the last 3 1/2 years, which Jesus referred to as "the great tribulation." When the angels collect them they will be in their mortal bodies. They will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. These are those that the angels collect. It is not the gathering of the church (rapture).
You are also not taking into account the fact that Rev.19:6-8 demonstrates that the bride/church is receiving her fine clothes, white and clean in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and then are seen wearing that clothing in Rev.19:14 as they follow the Lord out of heaven. If you are receiving clothing and following the Lord out of heaven, you would have had to already be in heaven. Those riding on white horses are also positively identified as the believers in Christ that will have previously been gathered referred to as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers."
You have to compare and cross-reference all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion and having your daughter just read the Olivet Discourse ain't gonna cut it.
You are greatly mistaken about the parable of the ten virgins as well. If you will notice, in the parable the five who were wise brought extra oil with them, which represents "watchful readiness." Those who had extra oil (were ready) when the bridegroom appeared, those five went into the wedding feast, which takes place in heaven (Rev.19:6-8). Therefore, the parable of the ten virgins is not demonstrating that the church as needing oil in order to make it through the tribulation period, but because they are ready, when the bridegroom comes, they are taken to the Father's house where the wedding of the Lamb takes place. The door is then shut and the other five can't get in, for that day will have closed on them like a trap and that because of their unreadiness.
You are not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which are two separate events.
Last edited:
Oh, I'm absolutely a pre-wrather (we see the judgments in the seals and trumpets but not the wrath contained in the bowls). And I truly believe that many pre-tribbers will turn away from the faith (just like Jesus said they would) because they weren't prepared for what they will find themselves in the midst of. But you, me, and a whole host of solid Biblical arguments aren't going to convince pre tribbers. So I caveat a little for them, saying I hope you are right but be prepared to be wrong.
M
Really awesome to hear your "pre-wrath"! The ironic thing is...there is a HUGE downside if pre-tribbers are wrong...and NO downside if pre-wrathers are wrong - lol.
If pretrib is correct, we don't NEED any prep for that! I can just sit around eating potato chips, watching reruns of Star Trek, and wait to be be whisked off to heaven "on flowery beds of ease"!! Come to think of it - maybe I should prepare. I'm heading off to the store right now to buy some Doritos.
If pretrib is correct, we don't NEED any prep for that! I can just sit around eating potato chips, watching reruns of Star Trek, and wait to be be whisked off to heaven "on flowery beds of ease"!! Come to think of it - maybe I should prepare. I'm heading off to the store right now to buy some Doritos.
Hello Rickyz and Mattoofor,
What you do not understand, and I'll speak for myself is that, though I believe that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the 1st seal being opened, my faith is not based on the timing of the gathering of the church, but on Christ's shed blood. Therefore, if for some reason I misinterpreted scripture and observed some political ruler establishing a seven year covenant with Israel, then since I have done much study on end-time events, I would know him as the antichrist immediately. And I would begin to pray that God would strengthen me to keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God and to resist the antichrist and his mark system and all that was about to come upon the earth, even unto death.
I don't know why you people think that if the gathering of the church doesn't take place at the time we believe, that our faith somehow falls to pieces. What a weak faith that would be! That's just a false assumption on your part. For I would certainly recognize the antichrist and the other end-time events by what is written in scripture.
If you truly believe that the wrath of God only consists of the bowl judgments, then you seriously haven't done enough study on the subject of end-time events. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as wrath, as follows:
6th Seal: (Including the first four seals)
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7Th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
Seven Bowl Judgments:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. (Note: If the seven bowls as a unit are the "last plagues of wrath" then other wrath would have had to come before them, which would be referring to the seals and the trumpets.
So as you can plainly see, there is a mentioning of God's wrath in each set of seven plagues. The fact is that, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, with the bowls to follow. The results of the first four seals will result in a fourth of the earth's population being killed and at the 6th trumpet a third of the earth's population is killed. Again, Jesus is the One responsible for these fatalities, for He is the One who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God almighty and He will be carrying out that wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
What you do not understand, and I'll speak for myself is that, though I believe that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the 1st seal being opened, my faith is not based on the timing of the gathering of the church, but on Christ's shed blood. Therefore, if for some reason I misinterpreted scripture and observed some political ruler establishing a seven year covenant with Israel, then since I have done much study on end-time events, I would know him as the antichrist immediately. And I would begin to pray that God would strengthen me to keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God and to resist the antichrist and his mark system and all that was about to come upon the earth, even unto death.
I don't know why you people think that if the gathering of the church doesn't take place at the time we believe, that our faith somehow falls to pieces. What a weak faith that would be! That's just a false assumption on your part. For I would certainly recognize the antichrist and the other end-time events by what is written in scripture.
If you truly believe that the wrath of God only consists of the bowl judgments, then you seriously haven't done enough study on the subject of end-time events. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as wrath, as follows:
6th Seal: (Including the first four seals)
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7Th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
Seven Bowl Judgments:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. (Note: If the seven bowls as a unit are the "last plagues of wrath" then other wrath would have had to come before them, which would be referring to the seals and the trumpets.
So as you can plainly see, there is a mentioning of God's wrath in each set of seven plagues. The fact is that, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, with the bowls to follow. The results of the first four seals will result in a fourth of the earth's population being killed and at the 6th trumpet a third of the earth's population is killed. Again, Jesus is the One responsible for these fatalities, for He is the One who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God almighty and He will be carrying out that wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Last edited:
M
Even if your "advanced-Bible-students-will-be-impervious" theory were true...think of all the weaker Bible students who have been influenced (by you or other PreTrib advocates) and have casually accepted PreTrib and don't HAVE the stability you say you have...and are thus utterly blindsided, thinking their "American Dream" cake-walk Christianity was never going to end until their "flowery beds of ease" rapture whisked them off?
And there is no indication we get to see a "covenant" signed, by the way. That will likely be a secret agreement...since Jesus says the first specific thing to look for is the earth-shaking "abomination of desolation" which will detonate with the shockwave of a 100,000 nuclear bombs (so to speak).
American Christians may only have hours or maybe a few days to decide what stand they will take. Haven't you read how believers will react at the news of the abomination of desolation? It's the opposite of what you're describing. Jesus says the desperation levels will be so high, daughters will turn against mothers, and sons against fathers, etc.
You make it sound like it's an automatic 'given' that despite the confusion and panic, erstwhile PreTribbers will make the right choices. That isn't what Jesus says.
He explains in Matthew 25 that believers must specifically prepare for the darkness that commences with the occurrence of the "abomination". Believers who have been going along on the assumption they will be raptured away "before all the bad stuff" will NOT be spiritually prepared. Nor emotionally and psychologically. Maybe there will be a tiny few who will squeak by...but Matthew 25 leaves precious little hope for those who undertook zero preparation for the dark hours of the great tribulation.
But that is exactly what Jesus predicts!
That's a misdescription. The scroll (which contains the trumpets and bowls) is the wrath of God. The 6th seal merely serves the purpose of announcing God's wrath, and the breaking of the 7th seal literally unleashes God's wrath.
By the way, I say again, you have a HUGE and insurmountable problem with your idea that Jesus returns 1260 days after the abomination of desolation. Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour" of His return. You have pinpointed the very day. Can't do that!
And there is no indication we get to see a "covenant" signed, by the way. That will likely be a secret agreement...since Jesus says the first specific thing to look for is the earth-shaking "abomination of desolation" which will detonate with the shockwave of a 100,000 nuclear bombs (so to speak).
American Christians may only have hours or maybe a few days to decide what stand they will take. Haven't you read how believers will react at the news of the abomination of desolation? It's the opposite of what you're describing. Jesus says the desperation levels will be so high, daughters will turn against mothers, and sons against fathers, etc.
You make it sound like it's an automatic 'given' that despite the confusion and panic, erstwhile PreTribbers will make the right choices. That isn't what Jesus says.
He explains in Matthew 25 that believers must specifically prepare for the darkness that commences with the occurrence of the "abomination". Believers who have been going along on the assumption they will be raptured away "before all the bad stuff" will NOT be spiritually prepared. Nor emotionally and psychologically. Maybe there will be a tiny few who will squeak by...but Matthew 25 leaves precious little hope for those who undertook zero preparation for the dark hours of the great tribulation.
But that is exactly what Jesus predicts!
That's a misdescription. The scroll (which contains the trumpets and bowls) is the wrath of God. The 6th seal merely serves the purpose of announcing God's wrath, and the breaking of the 7th seal literally unleashes God's wrath.
By the way, I say again, you have a HUGE and insurmountable problem with your idea that Jesus returns 1260 days after the abomination of desolation. Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour" of His return. You have pinpointed the very day. Can't do that!
Everything we see today seems to not make so much of a difference the thing about it is this, In that day the day we speak of when we say the 2nd coming will look different to each of us.
The preterist believe that the vast majority of this is fulfilled and so to them they are waiting for the "next event" which to them is Jesus returning. The futurist believe these things are not yet fulfilled and so the next event they are waiting for is the devil to set up a kingdom. The Jews don’t believe either of the two and so are waiting for the Messiah to come for the very first time. The Islamic's are waiting for Isa to come and then the 12th Iam.
So if the devil comes next the Preterist,the Muslims and the Jews will see it as the thing they believe is to come next. And if Jesus returns next then the futurist will see it as the devil. They though will see the next event as the fulfilment of the thing they believe is the next event. So who will worship the devil and believe it is God? Does the beast set up his kingdom first and then Jesus return or does Jesus return and then the devil? See how highly important it is to know for sure whether it is fulfilled verses going to be fulfilled?
The preterist believe that the vast majority of this is fulfilled and so to them they are waiting for the "next event" which to them is Jesus returning. The futurist believe these things are not yet fulfilled and so the next event they are waiting for is the devil to set up a kingdom. The Jews don’t believe either of the two and so are waiting for the Messiah to come for the very first time. The Islamic's are waiting for Isa to come and then the 12th Iam.
So if the devil comes next the Preterist,the Muslims and the Jews will see it as the thing they believe is to come next. And if Jesus returns next then the futurist will see it as the devil. They though will see the next event as the fulfilment of the thing they believe is the next event. So who will worship the devil and believe it is God? Does the beast set up his kingdom first and then Jesus return or does Jesus return and then the devil? See how highly important it is to know for sure whether it is fulfilled verses going to be fulfilled?
Last edited:
Do you live on planet earth? Everything that happens with Israel is on the news. I guarantee you that when that ruler establishes that seven year covenant with Israel and they begin to build their temple, the entire earth will know about.
Again, you are not discerning as to who is being addressed. The abomination takes place in the middle of the seven years, where it will be set up in the temple in Israel, which causes the woman/Israel to flee out into the wilderness where she is cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years, as demonstrated in Matt.24:15-21, Rev.12:6 & 14:
"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. "
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[SUP]a[/SUP] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
All of the scriptures above have do to with the event of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple, which is directed at Israel and not the church. Furthermore, the woman of Rev.12 is Israel. As I have stated many times, the abomination takes place in the middle of the seven years, which by the way is the completion of that seventy seven year periods that were decreed--not on the church--but to Israel as proclaimed in Dan.9:24. The church will be gone prior to the 1st seal being opened.
Your post above continues to demonstrate that you don't have enough study regarding end-time events to comment. For if you did, you would recognize that there is a huge difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that believers would have because of their faith in him vs. the coming, unprecedented wrath of God. So, the "bad stuff" that you are speaking of, which is the wrath of God, believers are not appointed to suffer.
For example, the persecution that the apostles and the first century church suffered was not the wrath of God, but came at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The people around the world who are currently being persecuted and killed is not by the wrath of God, but at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The wrath of God that is coming, will be in fulfillment of "the day of the Lord" which has been prophesied by the OT prophets and the apostles. It will be God's direct punishment upon the inhabitants of the entire earth. Jesus already suffered the wrath that believers deserve and it has therefore been satisfied. There is no need for the church to go through God's wrath. It would be the same as a double payment and a dishonor to Christ.
No! The falling away, the apostasy, is and has already been taking place, as people are abandoning the truth and turning aside to every wind of doctrine. The falling away does not specifically state that believers fall away because they are expecting Christ to return prior to God's wrath and then he doesn't.
The fact remains that Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, which is followed by the bowl judgments. As I pointed out, the bowl judgments are referred to as the last plagues--last because with them God's wrath is completed. If you have the bowls being "last" then other wrath would have to be first or before the bowl judgments.
Exactly! The reason is because he said that regarding his appearing to gather the church and not when he returns to the earth to end the age. When the church is gathered, the Lord comes like a thief. The characteristics of a thief is that he wants to get what he came for and leave without anyone knowing that he was there. In contrast, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, there will be all of the signs that Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse and all of the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to his return. Therefore, it is not a huge insurmountable problem, because there is nothing that needs to take place prior to the gathering of the church. By your claim, you are still not recognize that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to end the age.
By the way, you still have not responded to the army on white horses being the bride/church, which are referred to as His called, chosen and faithful followers who are following Christ our of heaven.
When Paul finished with his detailed account of the gathering of the church, he said, "comfort one another with these words." In writing to Titus, he referred to those who long for his appearing as "the blessed hope." Based on your belief of the gathering taking place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, there would be no comfort for anyone nor would it be a blessed hope. And that because the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is going to decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all of human government.
Until you and others recognize the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, your interpretation of end-time events will be in error.
Gathering of the church = 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53, 2 Thes. 2:1, Rev.4:1
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, Rev.19:11-21
I don't know why you people think that if the gathering of the church doesn't take place at the time we believe, that our faith somehow falls to pieces.
But that is exactly what Jesus predicts!
M
No, I commute from the planet Neptune - lol. But anyway...I am simply trying to go by what Jesus says...when He says...the first thing you will notice (other than a general malaise - earthquakes, famine, pestilence, wars and rumors of wars)...is the Abomination of Desolation. It's right there in black and white. Plenty of hidden agreements are struck outside the public view. It's nothing new.
Wait a minute. First of all, you are using this word "church" as a preconceived concept. You have leapt too far forward in our particular discussion.
Secondly, even diehard PreTribbers concede there will be vast numbers of gentile believers on earth during (at least portions of) the 70th Week. Indeed, there is a direct reference in Rev. 12:17 where it states that once the Devil sees he cannot lay hands on the "righteous remnant" of the Jews, he will turn and go after "those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus". In other words, Jesus-followers...Christians.
So, you're back to square one. You haven't shown where there is this "pre-trib rapture". There isn't a single, solitary passage of Scripture which teaches a "pre-trib rapture". The passage does not exist.
Whoa, Nelly! When Jesus says "no one knows the day of the hour" it is CLEARLY referring to an event waaaaay inside the seven year period. In no way, shape or form could you stretch, twist, tweak the Scriptures to argue His "no one knows" is referring to an alleged event which happens before the seven years begin.
In His Olivet Discourse presentation, by the time Jesus gets around to informing Peter, James and John that "no one knows the day or hour", He is deep, deep, deep inside the events of the 70th Week. So again, you have an insurmountable problem:
The "gathering of the elect" event MUST happen sometime well before the end of the 1260 days and CANNOT happen ON the 1260th day (as you are proposing) because it violates Jesus' "no one knows".
Therefore, the question remains: What IS this event which happens well before the end of the 1260 days...and which is announced by great cosmic disturbances?
Again, Jesus, in predicting these cosmic events, refers to famous OT passages regarding cosmic events...events which these same OT passages, in turn, describe as the commencing of the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31). According to clearcut statements in Joel 2:31, the Day of the Lord does not begin until AFTER the cosmic events...which is PRECISELY the depiction in Rev. 6:
First, the cosmic events. Then the breaking of the final (7th) seal which allows the scroll to unfurl, releasing God's wrath. Just as is announced with the 6th seal. Just as is described in Joel 2:31.
Wait a minute. First of all, you are using this word "church" as a preconceived concept. You have leapt too far forward in our particular discussion.
Secondly, even diehard PreTribbers concede there will be vast numbers of gentile believers on earth during (at least portions of) the 70th Week. Indeed, there is a direct reference in Rev. 12:17 where it states that once the Devil sees he cannot lay hands on the "righteous remnant" of the Jews, he will turn and go after "those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus". In other words, Jesus-followers...Christians.
So, you're back to square one. You haven't shown where there is this "pre-trib rapture". There isn't a single, solitary passage of Scripture which teaches a "pre-trib rapture". The passage does not exist.
Whoa, Nelly! When Jesus says "no one knows the day of the hour" it is CLEARLY referring to an event waaaaay inside the seven year period. In no way, shape or form could you stretch, twist, tweak the Scriptures to argue His "no one knows" is referring to an alleged event which happens before the seven years begin.
In His Olivet Discourse presentation, by the time Jesus gets around to informing Peter, James and John that "no one knows the day or hour", He is deep, deep, deep inside the events of the 70th Week. So again, you have an insurmountable problem:
The "gathering of the elect" event MUST happen sometime well before the end of the 1260 days and CANNOT happen ON the 1260th day (as you are proposing) because it violates Jesus' "no one knows".
Therefore, the question remains: What IS this event which happens well before the end of the 1260 days...and which is announced by great cosmic disturbances?
Again, Jesus, in predicting these cosmic events, refers to famous OT passages regarding cosmic events...events which these same OT passages, in turn, describe as the commencing of the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31). According to clearcut statements in Joel 2:31, the Day of the Lord does not begin until AFTER the cosmic events...which is PRECISELY the depiction in Rev. 6:
First, the cosmic events. Then the breaking of the final (7th) seal which allows the scroll to unfurl, releasing God's wrath. Just as is announced with the 6th seal. Just as is described in Joel 2:31.