Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[iamsoandso]

Are we talking Heir Hitler here or what?

lol,no in post #346 you said you were Disp. for about 30 years until about 3 years ago. Then you mentioned J.Dwight Pentecost book so I thought you would recognise the term "heir"(as in inheritance) from the book beginning about page 65(I guess not).

But you also said that there was an "preterist position" that you were dead set against as if Pentecost had said something to cause you to admit defeat to preterism(on the position I suppose) what preterit position?

 

[PlainWord]

Brother PlainWord,

There are only 2 resurrections,

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24,

The 1st is Jesus the first fruits.

The 2nd is at His coming.

Agreed, two literal resurrections as you said and cite from 1 Cor 15. However, I cited several passages and there are many more, which point to a spiritual resurrection. The first resurrection from Rev 20, I believe is reference to the spiritual resurrection, which happens to each of us in our own order when Christ comes and indwells (through the Spirit) within us.

 

[Locutus]

lol,no in post #346 you said you were Disp. for about 30 years until about 3 years ago. Then you mentioned J.Dwight Pentecost book so I thought you would recognise the term "heir"(as in inheritance) from the book beginning about page 65(I guess not).

But you also said that there was an "preterist position" that you were dead set against as if Pentecost had said something to cause you to admit defeat to preterism(on the position I suppose) what preterit position?

Page 65 - Section two deals with the Biblical Covenants and Eschatology "The Abrahamic Covenant".

What set the wheels in motion for my dismissal of dispensationalism was correctly identifying the whore of Babylon, but that was only the start.

If a theology has wrongly identified the whore it can't correctly interpret the book of revelations or the time of the end.

 

[abcdef]

Agreed, two literal resurrections as you said and cite from 1 Cor 15. However, I cited several passages and there are many more, which point to a spiritual resurrection. The first resurrection from Rev 20, I believe is reference to the spiritual resurrection, which happens to each of us in our own order when Christ comes and indwells (through the Spirit) within us.

Brother Plainword,


You have to die physically to be resurrected.

People who are baptized, are not resurrected to heaven with Jesus at that time.

The resurrections that are shown in 1 Cor 15:23-24, are resurrections where souls who have physically died are taken to heaven.

People who are baptized still die a physical death and therefore are not resurrected, in the definition of the eternal sense.

---

The 1st resurrection was Jesus, 1 Cor 15:23-24.

But you say no, Rev 20.

You say that when we are saved, that is the 1st resurrection shown there.

But again, in any resurrection (1 Cor 15) you must die physically, or it cannot fit the definition.

Baptism is the "likeness" of His resurrection, not a resurrection.

There are only 2 spiritual resurrections, Jesus and when He comes for us.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother Plainword,


You have to die physically to be resurrected.

It's a figurative use of the word. You sound like Nicodemus.

The resurrections that are shown in 1 Cor 15:23-24, are resurrections where souls who have physically died are taken to heaven.

I'm not citing 1 Cor 15, I'm citing Rev 20. What does John say in Rev 20?

You have to take part in the first resurrection to avoid the Second Death. Therefore he must have been using the figurative meaning.

 

[Locutus]

You've got me confused here PL - the first resurrection you seem to be saying is a spiritual resurrection.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Let me conflate this - "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.....this is the first resurrection"

So are you applying this first resurrection to those that were alive in the 1st century (i.e. the 144,000 of the 12 tribes + others) and any since then? (As in all believers?) So effectively saying that being born again is a spiritual resurrection i.e. the 1st resurrection rather than THE physical resurrection of "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

 

[abcdef]

It's a figurative use of the word. You sound like Nicodemus.

Being born again, is not a resurrection because you don't physically die and go to heaven.

I'm not citing 1 Cor 15, I'm citing Rev 20. What does John say in Rev 20?

You have to take part in the first resurrection to avoid the Second Death. Therefore he must have been using the figurative meaning.

Rev 20,

The 1st resurrection is when these souls were taken to heaven, with Jesus.

They are there now.

They will not see the 2nd death.

--

The meaning of the word resurrection cannot be changed between the 2 resurrections.

The word does not mean one thing at the 1st resurrection and then something different for the 2nd resurrection.

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

When you accept Christ, you are born of the Spirit, your soul (which was dead) is "resurrected."

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power.

ALL OF US, every Christian since the Cross, take part in the first resurrection. Otherwise we aren't blessed and subject to the second death.

Christ (and no other) was the firstfruits of the resurrection. There is only one physical resurrection and it is of both the just and unjust and happens on the last day.

Those that came back to life with Christ and appeared to many either went to heaven with him or they died again. We aren't told. But I suspect they died again, the power of Christ's resurrection being so strong to temporarily revive them.

 

[Locutus]

"ALL OF US, every Christian since the Cross, take part in the first resurrection. Otherwise we aren't blessed and subject to the second death."

So you are saying that the first resurrection is ongoing since the 1st century correct?

 

[PlainWord]

Being born again, is not a resurrection because you don't physically die and go to heaven.

You are conflating two separate concepts. The first resurrection (as found in Rev 20) deals with the spirit. Your spirit is "born again" or "resurrected" when you accept Christ. You put to death the old self and put on the "new man." From that moment on, YOU WILL NEVER DIE. But you do die, right? You die physically. But your spirit never dies from that point forward. Whether you are physically dead or physically alive your spirit LIVES. When one accepts Christ (after the Cross), he enters the Kingdom of God.

When a believer dies, his soul and spirit IMMEDIATELY go to heaven. The body remains in the ground.

 

[PlainWord]

"ALL OF US, every Christian since the Cross, take part in the first resurrection. Otherwise we aren't blessed and subject to the second death."

So you are saying that the first resurrection is ongoing since the 1st century correct?

YES!! In terms of John's point in Rev 20.

 

[PlainWord]

You've got me confused here PL - the first resurrection you seem to be saying is a spiritual resurrection.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Let me conflate this - "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.....this is the first resurrection"

So are you applying this first resurrection to those that were alive in the 1st century (i.e. the 144,000 of the 12 tribes + others) and any since then? (As in all believers?) So effectively saying that being born again is a spiritual resurrection i.e. the 1st resurrection rather than THE physical resurrection of "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

EXACTLY. This is the only way Rev 20 makes sense and harmonizes the rest of the scripture on the subject. Otherwise you are going to need multiple resurrections and other than Christ, then everyone else, it wouldn't make sense.

Here in John 11, Martha understood that her brother will be resurrected, on the LAST DAY.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”


What "Last Day" is this? The day Christ arose? The last day of Jerusalem? The final day of this old earth? I'm going with option 3.

 

[PlainWord]

Rev 20,

The 1st resurrection is when these souls were taken to heaven, with Jesus.

They are there now.

They will not see the 2nd death.

As a believer, will you see the 2nd death? I don't think so. Yes, the beheaded souls are in heaven with Jesus, just as my grandmother who died 30 years ago is in heaven with Jesus. All dead believers are in heaven with Jesus.

 

[iamsoandso]

Page 65 - Section two deals with the Biblical Covenants and Eschatology "The Abrahamic Covenant".

What set the wheels in motion for my dismissal of dispensationalism was correctly identifying the whore of Babylon, but that was only the start.

If a theology has wrongly identified the whore it can't correctly interpret the book of revelations or the time of the end.

oh.who do you say Babylon,Harlot ect. is?

 

[Locutus]

Ok - we just need to define the terms we are discussing so that we are on the same page so to speak, otherwise it's confusing.

So I would state it using other scriptures the "1st resurrection" is what Paul is stating as being quickened:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:.
.
.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So this would make John's use of resurrection in the "1st resurrection" figurative.

Are we agreed?

 

[Locutus]

oh.who do you say Babylon,Harlot ect. is?

I've already answered that:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee...


Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

 

[abcdef]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This is about the definition of the word "resurrection".

1 Cor 15:23-24, shows that there are only 2 resurrections to eternal life.

Lazarus, that Jesus raised, came back from the dead, but he was not resurrected in the sense of 1 Cor 15:23-24, because it says there that Jesus was the 1st fruits, not Lazarus or any other.

So to say that being born again is a resurrection, is not correct in the context of 1 Cor 15:23-24.

When you accept Christ, you are born of the Spirit, your soul (which was dead) is "resurrected."

No, the soul must be in Hades to be resurrected !

[SUP]

6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no po

wer.

This is spoken about the souls already in heaven with Jesus in 96 ad

ALL OF US, every Christian since the Cross, take part in the first resurrection. Otherwise we aren't blessed and subject to the second death.

Jesus was the 1st resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-24,

We don't take part in it since it happened 1900 years ago.

We look for the 2nd resurrection, when Jesus comes.

When we are born again, our relationship with Jesus is put under the NT covenant where we get the gift of the Holy Spirit,

But we are not resurrected from Hades to heaven at that immediate time.

Christ (and no other) was the firstfruits of the resurrection. There is only one physical resurrection and it is of both the just and unjust and happens on the last day.

The 144000 are the first fruits also Rev 14:4.

They were resurrected with Jesus and are seen in heaven with Jesus in 96 ad at the writing of the Revelation,

Along with the multitude that no man could count.

That is the 1st resurrection.

--

Jn 5:25, Jesus, 1st resur., now is, they that hear shall live.

Jn 5:28, All the just and unjust, together at the coming for the Kingdom.

Those that came back to life with Christ and appeared to many either went to heaven with him or they died again. We aren't told.

Eph 4:8-10, says that they were carried to heaven by Jesus.

But I suspect they died again, the power of Christ's resurrection being so strong to temporarily revive them.

Temporarily revive them?

So Jesus didn't have enough power to bring them to heaven with Him?

He only had enough power to get them part of the way there?

His shed blood didn't have the power to cleanse their sins?

 

[Ahwatukee]

"ALL OF US, every Christian since the Cross, take part in the first resurrection. Otherwise we aren't blessed and subject to the second death."

So you are saying that the first resurrection is ongoing since the 1st century correct?

Hello Locutus,

Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection. He initiated it. It is important to understand that there are phases/stages to the first resurrection:

Jesus the first fruits

The Church at his appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Cor.15:51-53, 1Thes.4:13-18, Rev.4:1)

The Male Child/144,000 - (Rev.12:5)

The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11)

The Great Tribulation Saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

All of those listed above belong to the first resurrection. In fact every resurrection and catching away that takes place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years, falls under the banner of first resurrection. One of the main problems that cause people to err is when they when they read the words "first resurrection" which they equate to "only resurrection," which is false. The church is next.

 

[abcdef]

As a believer, will you see the 2nd death? I don't think so. Yes, the beheaded souls are in heaven with Jesus, just as my grandmother who died 30 years ago is in heaven with Jesus. All dead believers are in heaven with Jesus.

The dead in Christ rise first, yes?

If they're all in heaven,

How can the dead in Christ, rise first?

 

[iamsoandso]

What causes you to think that the current nation of "Israel" has anything to do with prophecy?

What you are stating (I think) is that this current "nation of Israel" is the whore of Babylon of the book of Revelation - would I be correct?

That is my curiosity because we both are saying the same one is the harlot but you see it being destroyed before the ten horns came(ad70). I think is this what you are saying or did I misunderstand this?