REVELATION

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I feel as if the value i can add to the topic is to mention the idea that understanding of the book of revelation, connects to the prophets of old. i try to stay with the word, interpreting the Word. also the Gospel in my own humble view, imparts understanding related to the evennts pictured in revelation.

i firmly believe that we cant follow it chronologically because of the way it is written. the earth and sky flee from Gods presence more than once, the sun and moon are darkened more than once, i tend to read it as if it overlaps. Things happen in Heaven, and are manifest on earth. the four beasts if one connects prophets of old who have added insight into thier meaning, there is alot of info about them.

Like you , as of now i am in a continuing study of prophecy I have alot of thoughts of what they mean, but it seems to lead to alot of arguments in my own experience I know that they are created biengs , who have spirits that they follow wherever the spirits go, the beasts follow. I also know that they are sent into all the earth and are connected to angels of the four winds that are holding Back the wrath of God concerning the very end. they are servants of God who do not go astray from His spirits leading ( look into the wheels of fire in ezekiel regarding that the spirit of the 4 beasts are in the wheels and they always go exactly where the spirit goes.

the eyes that cover them to me suggests they are witnesses of all things, all seeing. and the word tells us that all things are laid bare before the Lord. Im not sure were supposed to identify them as one certain thing, we Know they are chrebums in service of God and obey everywhere He directs them through the spirit. I do believe certainly that prophecy answers much more is we understand that Gods spirit has been speaking of the end from the beginning of the prophets and a much fuller and more informed understanding is available if we dont just look at the book of revelation, but also lok to the rest of what the prophets saw in days of old concerning the same things near the end of time.

My own understanding of revelation has increased many times over through Letting the prophecy and the gospel fill in rather than trying to figure it out in my head. More than that Prayer for understanding each time we open the word, I believe God wants us to understand everything in the Bible with clarity, and is pleased when we ask Him to give us understanding.

this isnot to dispariage anyone elses views here, Just my own belief. God bless you.

Can i ask how you view revelation 12?

I agree with all of what you say so far. I know it's not exactly chronological- why I mentioned it being outside time. But I'm reading it now and John continues saying "then..then..now...now..then..then..then...!" So I do take that seriously.

Thank you you for taking time to put your heart (in Christ) in posts.

I am going to review Rev 12 and get back w you :)
 
Ugh. And seriously forgive typos. I'm using phone, but the desktop site cos mobile sites bug me. I am really much more careful normally! Grammar freak....
 
I agree with all of what you say so far. I know it's not exactly chronological- why I mentioned it being outside time. But I'm reading it now and John continues saying "then..then..now...now..then..then..then...!" So I do take that seriously.

Thank you you for taking time to put your heart (in Christ) in posts.

I am going to review Rev 12 and get back w you :)


why I mentioned it being outside time.<<< thats how i should have stated it :)

who was ....and is ....and is to come,

things that you have seen,.... things that are, ....and things that will be.

seals ....,trumpets,..... vials....

GOD Gives.. JESUS ( the image of God) His seat and power and authority... who gives the spirit to a true PROPHET

DRAGON gives the first BEAST ( who has the image of the dragon) His seat and power and authority...who gives power to the FALSE PROPHET....

God marks His people, satan marks his....


Just a line of consideration. i hope you understand :)


God Bless you and thank ypou for the interesting post, i love discussion when it isnt a huge argument lol....even when there is disagreement, discussion is benificial, arguments digress wuickly and are not benificial


 
I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive. (In heaven we will only be clothed in God's light) The 12 stars on her head could still represent the 12 tribes of Israel because they are still a part of humanity. If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now. Maybe Satan has truly not been cast down without access to heaven yet. We see in the book of Job that he goes before God to speak. Saying rejoice heaven and it's inhabitants and whoa to the inhabitants of the earth makes me think that the people who are still on earth are going to experience great trouble at this time. I have come to the conclusion that the amount of time the woman is persecuted (1260 days) is the same as a time times and have a time because of the Jewish interpretation of time. This number is also mentioned and Daniel. This is the point that I do not think we have reached yet. The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I just like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word. :)
 
The book of Revelation has to do with the beast kingdom,and the world rebelling against God,and the revealing of Jesus Christ to the world,and is a warning to the world to turn from their evil ways to God.

Jesus addresses the Churches and points out whatever they are violating in the way of truth,and to correct it,which we find all these traits in today's Churches,but the 7 Churches is a prophetic message of how the Church age will go in popular interpretation and following of the Bible,which we are at the last Church age where the saints are hypocritical,and neither hot or cold,and say,am rich,and increased with goods,and say they have need of nothing,but do not realize that they are wretched,poor,blind,wounded,and naked,which the Church before the last,Jesus did not have anything amiss to say about it,and said,because thou hast kept the word of my patience,I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,which shall come upon all the world,to try them that dwell upon the earth,which this Church is popular and mingled in with the hypocrites,and because they are doing right,Jesus will deliver them from the hour of temptation,that shall come upon the whole world,which this can only apply to the end time when they say Peace and safety,but Paul said the elect will not be fooled by that for they will know it is not the operation of God.

Then trouble on earth,the 6 seals which have to deal with a longer period of time,and the 6 trumpets,which are 6 disasters that the world knows about,mainly in the way of fighting,which are 6 warnings to the world to repent of their evil ways and turn to God,for God always gives warnings before He cracks down on people if they do not heed those warnings,but after the 6th trumpet,which is a war that involves the world,and will happen during the first three and one half years of the seven years period God is allowing the world to have their way to cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business,it will be a war involving a 200,000,000 army that fights the world,which appears to be the religion of Islam,that rebels against the unified religious system,whose standard format is of the new age movement,the occult,and nuclear weapons are launched,and one third of the population of the world dies,which will be concentrated in the Arab nations,which the world will be split in to ten sections at that time,the ten horns,and the last king before he claims to be God,plucks up three of those horns by the roots.

This war will be so terrible that the world is an uproar,and the ten horn kingdom failed at providing peace and safety,but they do not turn to God,but keep trying to solve their problems,which after the 6th trumpet God said they will still not repent of their evil ways,and still keep trying to solve their problems on earth,and will not turn to Him,so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them,who has been promoting the new age movement,the harnessing of nature for power,and spiritual evolution,which the world was waiting for the New Age Christ,that he would lead the world to a higher revelation of spiritual enlightenment,and restore all the hidden mysteries of the past where people had occult powers.

The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters that happen on earth,and warnings to turn to God for they keep stumbling at trying to obtain peace on earth,which the Bible says when they say Peace and safety,sudden destruction comes upon them,and they shall not escape,for people without the aide of God cannot provide peace for the world,and after the 6th trumpet they still do not turn to God,so God gives them the man of sin,the beast,to rule over them,and he will cause all who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.

God gives the world their way for they will not repent of their sins,and turn to Him.The 6 trumpets,6 warnings,did not turn them to God,so God is going to crack down on the wicked,for God will not give up on the world,until they give up on Him.Revelation 12,war breaks out in heaven,and the fallen angels are cast to earth,which becomes their holding cell,which the earth has become the habitation of devils,and the hold of every foul spirit,and the cage of every hateful and unclean bird,and Satan will appear as the beast,and the devils deceive all people who do not not love God to follow the beast kingdom,which is the strong delusion that God will send them that have pleasure in unrighteousness,and not the truth.

Satan will appear as the beast,which one of his heads was wounded,the ten horn kingdom that failed at obtaining peace,and the world crippled after the war that caused one third of the population of the world to die,and the world lost hope,but the beast has the answer to clear up all the confusion and upset,and the answer for the world,and the deadly wound was healed,for there was hope for the world,and the beast will claim to have harnessed the power of nature and obtained power,power over the elements that flesh cannot contend,and the world says,who is able to make war with him,believing that he has the power to establish his kingdom,and bring peace to the world,and no foe can stop him,and he has power to rule for the last three and one half years of the seven years period.

Revelation 12,13,the dragon,beast,has 7 heads-1.Egypt 2.Assyria 3.Babylon 4.Medo-Persia 5.Greece 6.Roman Empire 7.Ten horn kingdom,and ten horns-physical dominion of the beast kingdom,which will rule for a short space,three and one half years,who hand their power over to the beast,and although three of the horns are plucked up by the roots,the governments are still in place,but the people of those horns were devastated to a great degree,and the 8th king is the beast,who is of the 7 kings,or heads,which means the devil influenced all 7 of those kingdoms.

In Revelation 12,the crowns are on the heads,which means Satan in the spiritual realm deceiving by way of those 7 kingdoms,and in Revelation 13,the crowns are on the horns,which means Satan in the physical realm deceiving people.

God has got to end this sin business on earth one day,and the beast kingdom will deceive all people that do not love God to follow it,and when they take the mark of the beast,repentance is no longer available to the world,which is the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,where God will send Israel two witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and all Israel will be saved,kingdom on earth restored to Israel.

The beast will make war against the saints and prevail against them,and shall destroy the mighty and holy people physically,and the saints shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and when the world shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then the resurrection shall happen,and the saints gathered unto Christ,which the saints could not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,the unified religious system,based on the new age movement,spiritual evolution,and the time that they will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth,but according to their own lusts,personal power through nature,and will turn their ears from the truth,and be turned unto fables,which the new age movement is the imaginations of people,and the man of sin claims to be God.

The resurrection will occur,and the saints gathered unto Christ,and the wrath of God poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is the world attacking Israel for God turned them to the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior,and Jesus comes back with His saints,and fights the world and puts them down,and Jesus and the saints rule over some of the people that fought against Israel that God spared,and their judgement will come after the millennial reign of Christ.

That is only a quick viewpoint,not wanting to go over it too much,but the book of Revelation is a warning to the world to turn to God,and a revealing of Jesus to the world,and is about the beast kingdom,which God is allowing to cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark of the beast,so God can end this sin business,and Jesus and the saints rule the world for a 1000 years over some of the heathen that fought against the saints,and Israel,which the promise of the kingdom on earth being restored to Israel will happen at that time,which God said He will set His glory among the heathen,and they shall know that the house of Israel went in to captivity for their sins and iniquities against Him,but when they have borne their shame the kingdom will be restored to them,and the heathen shall know that God was on Israel's side all along.

During the 1000 years period Satan is bound in the bottomless pit,and there is peace on earth,where people will not fight with people,and animals and people will not fear each other,and animals will not fight,and not eat meat,and animals will be so docile,that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other hand.

At the end of the 1000 years,Satan is loosed for the bottomless pit and deceives all the people that Jesus and the saints rule over,and they go against the saints,and God rains fire upon them and devours them,for there punishment was postponed until the end of the millennial reign,and the millennial reign is over,and the saints go to the New Jerusalem.

The old earth,and the old heaven,pass away,for they are tainted with sin,and the New Jerusalem,the place that Jesus said He went away to prepare for the saints,will be a place where sin has never been,and sin will never be,and the former earth shall not be remembered,or come to mind,because it is associated with sin,and the saints will feel like they have always been at the New Jerusalem,and nowhere else.

In the New Jerusalem,people and angels,will not remember anything of the past,because it is associated with sin and rebellion,and the saints do not have to be sad for those who did not make it.The saints will remember nothing they did on earth,and not remember any people they knew on earth,and not even remember the earth ever existed,for in the New Jerusalem,all things are new and fresh,and sin and rebellion will never come up again for all eternity.
 
The only reason I entertained the idea of the child being born as someone other than Christ is because the number it gives is 1260 days. I do not think when God's Word says "days" that it means anything else.
 
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Re: REVELATION[/h]
I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive. (In heaven we will only be clothed in God's light) The 12 stars on her head could still represent the 12 tribes of Israel because they are still a part of humanity. If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now. Maybe Satan has truly not been cast down without access to heaven yet. We see in the book of Job that he goes before God to speak. Saying rejoice heaven and it's inhabitants and woe to the inhabitants of the earth makes me think that the people who are still on earth are going to experience great trouble at this time. I have come to the conclusion that the amount of time the woman is persecuted (1260 days) is the same as a time times and half a time because of the Jewish interpretation of time. This number is also mentioned and Daniel. This is the point in time that I do not think we have reached yet. The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I do not like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word. :)


The only reason I entertained the idea of the child being born as someone other than Christ is because the number it gives is 1260 days. I do not think when God's Word says "days" that it means anything else.
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Sorry. Just posted that to correct typos and combine last 2 posts. Thinking I could delete old posts but guess not?? Ha. Anyway there you go. :D
 
I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive. (In heaven we will only be clothed in God's light) The 12 stars on her head could still represent the 12 tribes of Israel because they are still a part of humanity. If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now. Maybe Satan has truly not been cast down without access to heaven yet. We see in the book of Job that he goes before God to speak. Saying rejoice heaven and it's inhabitants and whoa to the inhabitants of the earth makes me think that the people who are still on earth are going to experience great trouble at this time. I have come to the conclusion that the amount of time the woman is persecuted (1260 days) is the same as a time times and have a time because of the Jewish interpretation of time. This number is also mentioned and Daniel. This is the point that I do not think we have reached yet. The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I just like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word. :)


I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive. (In heaven we will only be clothed in God's light) The 12 stars on her head could still represent the 12 tribes of Israel because they are still a part of humanity.

even more than that the moon is under her and she is clothed with the sun. so yes thats very feasable. the stars could also represent the firmaments, both spiritaul and literral and duely indicate that isreal is the rule of earth being a crown indicating isreals rule.

If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now


If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now.

good thought to consider here for sure. i actually have some of the same views on alot of what you have said here. the 144000 (consider ezekiel 9 with revelation 7) and of course the multitude from all nations who are dressed in whote would be the christians redeemed through the gospel.


The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I just like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word.


if your thinking about the woman being creation is correct, couldnt the flood, indicate the great flood haha ;) it says the dragon spewed forth water, and the flood came as Gods response to sin, which is from satan. the earth eventually let the waters receed so i think if one considers your thinking about the woman being creation it kind of takes a person somewhere at least a place of serious consideration at the very least.

and understanding none of us inderstand it all, is a wise position because when we think we have it all figured out....were unable to hear and see or learn.


very interesting line of thought thank you for taking the time
 
I have thought the flood too!! My only reservation is God Himself says, I will flood the earth..... ?! Plus then 1260 days is what takes place before the serpent spews water... it says "so the serpent spewed water "Like" a flood (not the flood, which John would have known about) ... says "earth" helped the woman ... opened mouth and swallowed flood. Doesn't sound like the agreement God made w Noah and the building of the Ark for salvation.

After this - Rev 13 - the beast rises from the sea. These descriptions appear to be antichrist / his false kings etc. so... not chronological but still kind of is JUST because of the nature of the writing. Thoughts?
 
I have thought the flood too!! My only reservation is God Himself says, I will flood the earth..... ?! Plus then 1260 days is what takes place before the serpent spews water... it says "so the serpent spewed water "Like" a flood (not the flood, which John would have known about) ... says "earth" helped the woman ... opened mouth and swallowed flood. Doesn't sound like the agreement God made w Noah and the building of the Ark for salvation.

After this - Rev 13 - the beast rises from the sea. These descriptions appear to be antichrist / his false kings etc. so... not chronological but still kind of is JUST because of the nature of the writing. Thoughts?

indeed He did, but he flooded it in response to what satan caused :) im not at all saying thats what it is, just an ideer.

I look differently at things these days this is off topic of our current conversation but heres how i study revelation a small example

rev. 12:10-10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night"


mark 1:15 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God IS at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."


Luke 10:18-20 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."


JOHN 18: 36"Jesus answered, My kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."


john 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, TOUCH ME NOT; for I am not YET ASCENDED to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. " ( He forbids mary to touch him because he is yet ascended)


rev 5:5-6 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as IT HAD BEEN SLAIN, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth" (we see the lamb slain appear and approach Gods throne)


JOHN 20:26-27 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither THY FINGER, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and THRUST IT INTO MY SIDE: and be not faithless, but believing." ( he invites thomas to touch Him 8 days later ( the alottment for circumcision) what changed? had he now ascended maybe?




(the lamb is exalted to power and authority)


rev 5 : 12-13 "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."


One ofthe last things Jesus tells His disciples on earth....
matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in HEAVEN and in EARTH. "




this is kond of how i see the book of revelation just an idea of my wierdo thought process haha :) God bless sorry so many words.....
 
I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive. (In heaven we will only be clothed in God's light) The 12 stars on her head could still represent the 12 tribes of Israel because they are still a part of humanity. If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now. Maybe Satan has truly not been cast down without access to heaven yet. We see in the book of Job that he goes before God to speak. Saying rejoice heaven and it's inhabitants and whoa to the inhabitants of the earth makes me think that the people who are still on earth are going to experience great trouble at this time. I have come to the conclusion that the amount of time the woman is persecuted (1260 days) is the same as a time times and have a time because of the Jewish interpretation of time. This number is also mentioned and Daniel. This is the point that I do not think we have reached yet. The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I just like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word. :)

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Israel,the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Jesus Christ coming through the tribe of Judah,who is part of Israel.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Satan,7 heads-1.Egypt 2.Assyria 3.Babylon 4.Medo-Persia 5.Greece 6.Roman Empire 7.Ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,which the Roman Empire does not have their dominion taken away until God puts them down,and cause all nations to come together,and they shall devour the whole earth in pieces,shall tread it down,and break it in pieces.The ten horns is the physical dominion,which means Satan in the spiritual realm deceiving people by way of those kingdoms.In Revelation 13,the crowns are on the ten horns,Satan in the physical realm deceiving people.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The rebellion in heaven led by Lucifer,and Satan is the prince of the power of the air,but kicked out of the heaven where God dwells.Satan wanting to devour the child Christ Jesus as soon as he was born,but he has no power to do so.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Jesus will rule the world some day in the millennial reign of Christ,and will rule with a rod of iron,and Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,which means God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God because God cannot be separated,and the visible manifestation of the invisible God,and there is one God,and one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus,and God reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony,for the man Christ Jesus is the invisible God's personal visible manifestation,and the man Christ Jesus ascended to heaven.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business,and the plan to bring Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah that cannot be thwarted.The first 3 and one half years,the ten horn kingdom operates,and the last 3 and one half years the man of sin,the beast rules,to deceive all people that do not love God.

Since God has a plan of bringing Israel as a nation to the truth,and restoring the kingdom on earth to her,Israel is protected for the first 3 and one half years of the 7 years period.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This war has not happened yet,and is not the time when Lucifer got kicked out of the heaven where God and the angels dwell.
The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters that occur on earth,that the world knows about,as warning to the world to turn to God,but after the 6th trumpet they still will not repent of their evil ways,and turn to God,so He gives them the man of sin,the beast,to rule over them.

After the 6th trumpet,and they do not turn to God,war breaks out in heaven,and the fallen angels are cast to earth,where it becomes their holding cell,and Satan is no longer the prince of the power of the air,but confined to this world.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The Bible says that Babylon will never have physical dominion again,but this is Babylon in spirit,for she represents the kingdom of man,for her high revelation of God,but went against it,and the physical dominion is the Roman Empire,which is all nations together.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Now is come salvation,for Satan by way of the man of sin,the beast,will deceive all who do not love God to follow the beast kingdom,which they make war against the saints,in which the saints will resurrected,and all saints receive their glorified body,in which God will come back with His saints,and put the world down,and the kingdom shall become Jesus and the saints kingdom.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

God has a plan for Israel that cannot be thwarted,and Israel is protected for the last 3 and one half years of the 7 years period.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan knows he will receive punishment,and has but a short time,so he goes forth with wrath to go against everybody that holds the testimony that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

When war breaks out in heaven,and the devils are cast to earth,they will deceive all people who do not love God,which is the strong delusion God will send to all people who do not love the truth,but have pleasure in unrighteousness,which when they take the mark of the beast,they will have the nature of a devil,and any human emotions of compassion,or care,will be gone,and they will go by the actions of the devil to go against all people who opposed the beast kingdom.

The man of sin is influenced by Satan more than any other person in the history of mankind,as it is only the devil's actions portrayed through the man of sin with no human emotions of his own,as the devil uses the man of sin to deceive all people who do not love God,and to pour out his wrath on all of humanity,even the ones that followed him.

Satan will try to doom everyone spiritually,and those he cannot doom spiritually,he will go against physically,which the man of sin destroys the mighty and holy people physically.All those that took the mark are spiritually lost,and they go against all who did not take the mark physically,and then the devils will take the people to the battle of Armageddon where they get punished physically.

The man of sin,and the people that took the mark of the beast,have no will of their own,but only go by the actions of the devil,for their gave up their human rights,and the ability to repent,and the devils will wreck havoc with all mankind,and everybody gets punished physically,and a lot are lost spiritually,for the man of sin is controlled by Satan with no will of his own,so he will nor care about anybody,not even those that follow him.
 
I have thought the flood too!! My only reservation is God Himself says, I will flood the earth..... ?! Plus then 1260 days is what takes place before the serpent spews water... it says "so the serpent spewed water "Like" a flood (not the flood, which John would have known about) ... says "earth" helped the woman ... opened mouth and swallowed flood. Doesn't sound like the agreement God made w Noah and the building of the Ark for salvation.

After this - Rev 13 - the beast rises from the sea. These descriptions appear to be antichrist / his false kings etc. so... not chronological but still kind of is JUST because of the nature of the writing. Thoughts?

i see the anti christ to as the beast you are naming, because of His fatal wound, and the fact that he was given the authority oif the dragon as God Gave to Jesus, and then i see His prophet(s) as the one who appears as a lamb and speaks as a dragon. appearing in the name of christ, but speaking for satan. but again just my own thoughts, i cant say for certain much except for Trust Jesus and we cannot ever fail.
 
Revelation is clear up to the eighth chapter. The 7 churches represents 7 different kinds of churches and probably 7 different kinds of Christians(since Christians make up churches). From chapter 4 on is about things in the future, also the words,"come up here", do not mean the rapture of the church, they mean for John to come up into Heaven to see the future unfold. From chapter 4 to 8 is just the same as what Jesus taught in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, war, famine, disease, earthquakes, great persecution against the church, and then the return of Christ to gather the church, and then the church in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation(war,famine,disease, earthquakes, persecution). From chapter 8 on part of what is explained are some things that happened between the start of the tribulation and the return of Christ, and part are things that happen after the gathering of the church but before the Antichrist is defeated.
 
I had ‏heard that the teaching of the woman was Israel .. but after just rereading it .. could it be that she represents humanity? It says she is clothed with the sun .. and in a sense we are clothed with the sun because we need it to survive. (In heaven we will only be clothed in God's light) The 12 stars on her head could still represent the 12 tribes of Israel because they are still a part of humanity. If my understanding of the 144,000 is correct and they are indeed Jews that are set on fire and accept the Messiah .. then this could tie into that. The Dragon is clearly Satan. The stars his tail pulls down are the angels that follow him. This happened at the beginning of creation. Satan trying to devour the child makes me think of Satan trying to devour each and every human ever born. Even though people truly believe that the child represents Christ and have even capitalized the word child. Perhaps the battle that it describes could still be raging right now. Maybe Satan has truly not been cast down without access to heaven yet. We see in the book of Job that he goes before God to speak. Saying rejoice heaven and it's inhabitants and whoa to the inhabitants of the earth makes me think that the people who are still on earth are going to experience great trouble at this time. I have come to the conclusion that the amount of time the woman is persecuted (1260 days) is the same as a time times and have a time because of the Jewish interpretation of time. This number is also mentioned and Daniel. This is the point that I do not think we have reached yet. The only thing I cannot grasp is the flood from the serpents mouth! I just like admitting I am unsure of something in God's word. :)


COLOR="#0000CD"]Oh me!I think you are guessing [/COLOR]
 
So tell me what it means ;) I only say those things because of what scripture itself says. Not because I'm making something up. What this thread is for. Let's have it then!
 
Who is this “child” mentioned in verses 2, 4, and 5? The common teaching is that it is Jesus Christ. After all, He was a member of the nation Israel (Matthew 1:1), He is to rule all nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15), and He was caught up to God and His throne (Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11). But, does that necessarily make Jesus the “child” of Revelation chapter 12? Could someone else be that child? We will scan the Bible text for clues.

John the Apostle penned an interesting set of verses, Revelation 2:24-27: “[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. [25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. [26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: [27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

To those Jewish believers who overcome (the reign and deception of Antichrist), Jesus Christ promises them they will rule over the nations with a rod of iron (verses 26-27). So, not only does Jesus Christ rule over the nations with the rod of iron, He will also appoint believing Jews—or “the circumcision believers”—to rule over the nations under Him. These Jewish kingdom believers will share Christ’s authority over the nations. After all, Jesus Christ is called “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:16). He is King and He is Lord, but He has kings and lords serving under Him in His government. Just as His Father appointed Him, so He appoints them. Revelation 12:5—born of Israel and ruling all nations with a rod of iron—is not exclusive to Jesus Christ. It is also true of believing Jews in Israel’s program. But, there is more.

In order to “re-start” Israel’s program after our Dispensation of Grace ends, God will use 144,000 male Jewish preachers. We read about them in Revelation chapter 7: “[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

These 144,000—on earth in the aforementioned chapter 7—are suddenly caught up into heaven. Revelation chapter 14: “[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. [2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: [3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. [4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. [5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

This is not the Rapture and it has nothing to do with us the Church the Body of Christ, please note! Revelation chapters 7 and 14 are talking about the 144,000 Jewish men (verse 4) who will preach during the first 3½ years (or so) of the seven-year Tribulation. This group is the “child” of Revelation chapter 12. That is, Israel will “give birth” to a group of preachers. Also, that group of preachers will rule over the nations in Christ’s earthly kingdom (following the Tribulation, in the Millennium, 1000-year reign). Furthermore, that group of preachers will be caught up into heaven roughly halfway through the seven-year Tribulation. Satan will unsuccessfully try to harm or kill them.

It would not make sense for the Apostle John, in Revelation chapter 12, to reach back into Israel’s history and suddenly start talking about Jesus’ birth (Matthew chapter 2), and His ascension (Acts chapter 1). No, the “child” in Revelation chapter 12 is future. It is Israel’s believing remnant, chiefly the 144,000 Jewish preachers. These 144,000 will come from the nation Israel (Revelation chapter 7), they will rule over the nations in the Millennium (Revelation chapter 2), and they will be caught up to God and His throne in heaven (Revelation chapter 14).
 
The Apostle John wrote Revelation when he was about 95 years old---- he was exiled on the Island of Patmos because he was hideous---- they told him to deny the Lord and he wouldn't, so they put him in a pot of boiling oil---- it didn't hurt him, but it scared him---- John was the Apostle of Love --- formerly one of the Sons of Thunder boys--- his last words to the Church --- Love one another--- so when you club your bro. over the head with insults this would not have pleased John--- his hatred of false teaching was probably his second point in life, for he realized how destructive false teaching is...
 
A key to understanding Revelation is knowing the Lord intimately and being acquainted with the Word---the Church today is not acquainted with Jesus the Judge--- they focus so much on Grace they sometimes lose the fear of God---- this fear will change your life---- when John saw the Lord in His Glory he didn't say hey dude and hey bud--- he fell on his face--- when you experience this type of encounter it will change your life--- read chapter one and get to know Jesus as He is today...
 
The Apostle John wrote Revelation when he was about 95 years old---- he was exiled on the Island of Patmos because he was hideous---- they told him to deny the Lord and he wouldn't, so they put him in a pot of boiling oil---- it didn't hurt him, but it scared him---- John was the Apostle of Love --- formerly one of the Sons of Thunder boys--- his last words to the Church --- Love one another--- so when you club your bro. over the head with insults this would not have pleased John--- his hatred of false teaching was probably his second point in life, for he realized how destructive false teaching is...
Was John ever put in boiling pot of oil and came out still preaching?

Tertullian in A.D. 200 wrote, "at Rome, the Apostle John, having been immersed in hot oil, suffered no harm at all from it" (The Prescription against Heretics, chapter 36). The claim is that because John wasn't killed that it lead to his banishment to Patmos. Thus, it is an old story, but our record of it is 100 years after the claimed event and it wasn't recorded by inspiration.

Jerome in A.D. 397 refers to Tertullian's account, but makes the mistake of adding to it, claiming that it was Nero who ordered John's execution (adv. Jovin, I.14). This is a sign of a fable when embellishments are added -- especially impossible ones (Nero was dead when this event was supposed to have taken place) that come from people not living during that time. It was Jerome who also said that John came back out preaching.

While there might be some truth behind this fable, it has too many markings of embellishment -- in this case trying to explain why John was on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For that reason I would treat it as a fable unless better evidence surfaces. Was John ever put in boiling pot of oil and came out still preaching?