Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[PeterJens]

Sin ought to be denied in a believer.

Here I am. I have a relative who is now very old, frail, who went to church all their
life, had pastors in their family.

This person was suffering from a panic attack and needed reassurance. So I thought
this is a good time to pray, to exercise faith and see if they can reach out to God
and have Him respond. So I explained reaching out to God has helped other people
I know and is a first step to asking Christ to move in ones life.

So I prayed. And what was the answer. They told me as a teenager they had felt
like this once and called out to God, but never since.

And they saw no need to pray themselves or even believe God would respond.
Now I thought this might be the case, but it is always good to give the opportunity.

Our faith or lack of it often defines what we can accept or not accept.
Having love on the throne, opening our hearts to God and crying out in surrender,
is a bleak place, until you realise this is reality, we are lost without Him.

And the hurts and pain we want desperately to defend and salvage some respect
or dignity before others find out, is just given up. So King David is happy that his
behaviour with Bathsheba is known by all. We are Gods handiwork, no better than
anyone else and no worse. We have nothing to defend, it is all Gods gift, and He
can take it away or give more, just to be in His presence is enough.

I truly believe when we find this place, we will begin to discover what is possible.
Until then, it is often just pretending, giving God a trial run, but always with a
backup plan. A lot of our failure is down to not sharing enough on our throne
with Christ and staying in communion and the word. Yet our first point of call
is often, its not possible, I give up, what is the point... Rather than, God fill
my failure with your success, my emptiness with your presence, my animosity
with your love to flow to others, Amen.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Willyb: You can have the best of intentions not to sin and end up sinning anyway. James 3:2 in many things we offend all, James put himself in that group. Hebrews 12: let us lay aside the sin which does so EASILY beset us, the writer of Hebrews placed himself in the group that is so easily beset with sin. The Holy Spirit will convict you of sin on a daily basics, it is not possible for a Spirit indwelt believer to actually think that they never sin.

More words of truth here......overlooked by ALL who claim to be sinless....Just as John, Daniel and the others mentioned in this thread...as believers they ALL sinned or had sin in some form or fashion.....

Again this is not advocating a lifestyle of sin, but acknowledging that we do occasionally fail and sin.......

 

[dcontroversal]

And to be honest, most grace believers add "we occasionally sin/don't habitually sin." Because we are going to be ATTACKED and driven into the ground by the argument that we advocate sin.

If we are gaining knowledge of His mind and advancing in His Grace.............the more we notice that we are sinners to the uttermost. We sin ignorantly, we sin habitually, we sin and even like it for a season. Anyone who says, "No way, I have pretty much given up sin and have my sin under control." Is one who has no idea of how sinful we really are and what PERFECTION really is.

Anyone who advanced beyond salvation and the milk.....will admit that they sin habitually, more than occasionally, and know that ignorant sin will be revealed to them as they advance in Grace and knowledge.


I may have most of my overt sins cleaned, and live a life basically free of "known" and "visible " sins. But my thoughts and motivations are not pure most of the time. My sin nature clouds the divine plan God has for me.

If we only sinned "occasionally", this world would be right next to perfect and me having a problem in my life would only happen once every 20 or 30 years.

It makes no sense to this world that the more we advance in His mind and Grace the more we realize just how fallen we are.

Amen to that...the more time I spend with Jesus the more vile I see myself in the flesh....Paul walked this road and was HONEST with it, unlike the "I don't sin or never sin crowd"

Paul's walk unfolded the following way as he matured in Jesus...

1. I am the least of the Apostles
2. I am the least of the Saints
3. I am he number 1 chief sinner among men

NOW this is HONESTY with one's self and the word!

 

[dcontroversal]

This makes no sense at all. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

You declare the more you know God the more you know you are sinful, lost, hopeless.
Jesus used words like, that may be one as we are one.
They will know you are my disciples because you have love one for another.

Now a sinner is alone, separate, without fellowship with the Father, at emnity with Him.
But the cross and His resurrection has brought reconciliation between man and God.

Rather than growing further apart we should be growing closer together.

"But my thoughts and motivations are not pure most of the time."

So what are your core objectives and where is your focus. If at the end you
are not reigning with Christ on the your throne, but have other motives and agendas
it is not surprising you seem to be highlighting who is dominating everything.

As usual....your own lack of understanding and "box" that you live in has blinded you to what he actually stated.....you take the cake pal for twisting, ignoring, denying and flip flopping what people say.......skewed by your own erroneous view of sin in a believer.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am am not sure what your point is here.

What makes you think that those who are in the OSAS camp don't need to repent of sins as described in scripture?
I would ask what you think repentance is?

Sorry but the term "You Guys' is not an endearing term or one that is conducive to opening up a meaningful conversation.
Bordering on lying? One is either lying or not. There is no in between.

Thank you and that is part of the lie that DC was speaking off.. Not only that we LOVE our sin, but we do not feel we need to confess or repent of our sin when we see it in our lives. This is not true.

If they would stop for a minute and listen, they would hear.. But while they are bashing and saying we defend OSAS at all cost. They do the very thing to defend loss of salvation at all cost.

Sadly, I fear it will not end until Christ returns.

 

[dcontroversal]

What if it were possible? What if the flesh wasn't weak and the spirit still willing? What if in this life it were possible to walk free of sin? If at the very least it is not your desire to be free from sin, and hope to be, have we missed the holiness of God? As much as we make excuses for why we still sin, and make it "okay", what if we thought that its not okay?

I don't mean to express legalistic notions, but sin is still sin. It is vile, despicable, and grotesque. That isn't defining us, but sin in and of itself. As others have mentioned probably, God's grace isn't a license to sin, but if you do sin God's grace is sufficient. This doesn't mean we in any way ought to entertain the lusts of the flesh. According to His word, we are not under sin's dominion.

As pleasurable as sin is for the present moment, it robs us of future joy. No, it robs us of true present joy, lasting joy. First desire, then sin, followed by death. It kills peace, it murders hope, and it slaughters happiness. Sin is an illusion, a trick, that for a second seems to offer pleasure but soon disappears into despair.

Sin ought to be denied in a believer. We are to say no to ungodliness and wordly lusts, as grace teaches us. I am not claiming to be sinless, but pray God, may I be. Righteousness that is desirable. That is pure and to be hungered after. If it is possible to walk this earth at some point to be free of sin may we all attain that goal. If its possible, let us walk in such a way. Only if. Only if. Only if.

If it is not the case, God still sanctifies us. Unto what end? Is it so much to deal with sin or to build character? Who are we? How do we conduct ourselves in practicing love? Are we givers? Do we bring peace where we go? Do we carry His presence with us? Does His light so shine upon us, others may notice a glow? Let God sanctify you, as He will unless you be, as scripture notes, a bastard. You don't even have to be concerned with not sinning at all, or else, but rather rest in Christ knowing fully well that His blood has been shed for you, and through the Spirit you have been made a child of God.

As a child of God, He will chastise and sanctify us. So who cares who claims what as it pertains to perfection? Look in the mirror, see where you stand, and if you desire righteousness cry for God to change you. Pray He sanctifies you, transforming you into the man or woman of God He has so destined you. Don't worry about perfection, let God in His process address the areas He feels you currently need fine tuning. This way you can make peace with the present, and move onward in righteousness.

Everything you say that is right and good in this post is exemplified in DANIEL....YET...he STILL SINNED and CONFESSED HIS SINS......

and it sure seems like you are borderline implying that you are almost above sin regardless of saying that you are not saying your sinless......

Bolded 1 and 4-->One of the three most righteous, faithful men who walked the earth had to confess sin......notice how God viewed his righteousness in the following verse....so...1 and 4 is impossible until the day of Christ and we lose this body of sin we are housed in!

New American Standard Bible
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.

King James Bible
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Bolded 2-->PROBABLY you say.....surely you can read.....HOW ABOUT WE HAVE SAID!

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you and that is part of the lie that DC was speaking off.. Not only that we LOVE our sin, but we do not feel we need to confess or repent of our sin when we see it in our lives. This is not true.

If they would stop for a minute and listen, they would hear.. But while they are bashing and saying we defend OSAS at all cost. They do the very thing to defend loss of salvation at all cost.

Sadly, I fear it will not end until Christ returns.

Amen to that and truth here......such vitriol and hatred and misapplication of who I directed the post at........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Back to your old ways. That is what is truly sad about all of this...........

Prove verbatim where I ever said what you implied and said in your OP.

One of your favorite tricks from the past. Make an inflammatory comment, get called on it, twist it around and demand others prove things.......

I wasted a year and a half arguing with you about all of this junk........so don't hold your breath believing I will wast another year and a half doing so again...........you just ain't worth it.

as I see it.

1. The op was not directed at you. It was directed at sinless perfectionism
2. You came in BASHING the op. Based on the fact it was about OSAS, (which it is not)

Maybe you both need to take a break? The OP is about people who claim a sinless lifestyle. do you have anythign to add. DO you believe we cna be sinless after salvation and stay sinless?

 

[Embankment]

My thoughts:
One must admit they are a sinner before turning to Jesus and being saved. Saved or not saved, a follower or not a follower of Jesus , everyone sins every minute of every day. Practically every thought we have is somehow sinful.
If not sinning is the binchmark for being one with God then we have no hope. Fortunately God sent his Son to atone for our sin past present and future. Jesus is our salvation!

As for the Old Testament saints, not one of them were saved until Jesus satisfied the Old Testament and God started the new.

 

[PeterJens]

As usual....your own lack of understanding and "box" that you live in has blinded you to what he actually stated.....you take the cake pal for twisting, ignoring, denying and flip flopping what people say.......skewed by your own erroneous view of sin in a believer.......

dc - Every style or perspective has its own conclusions. It is easy to say we are so lost
why does God have any dealings with us.

This is the response of the world, and defeat.

God is talking to us because he believes we have value and are worthy of being spoken
to and we are not lost hopeless sinners without a future.

If fact He believes we have a real powerful future with Him, in fellowship with the Holy
Spirit, and to last into eternity.

Now once you grasp He says you can be Holy, washed clean, made whole, healed,
renewed, called acceptable, you are beginning to listen to God and not man.

dc - If you cannot see this in Christ and the cross, why are you a believer?

Why if Gods word does not transform us and set us free from the bondage to destroying
others and ourselves, causing harm and not blessing, is this not just some sick joke?

Do you love the world so much you want to spend all your waking life in this insane striving
for something we can never achieve except with Christ?

I know how insecurity, fear, cowardice, denial, hypocracy destroys people, I would much rather
walk in love and die, than live a compromised sad existance hoping financial and celebrity success
comes tomorrow, where I am clapped on a stage but actually know nobody, the final joke and
irony of covetousness and envy.

So I do not know what you are talking about, but I know my Lord and His ways.

 

[dcontroversal]

My thoughts:
One must admit they are a sinner before turning to Jesus and being saved. Saved or not saved, a follower or not a follower of Jesus , everyone sins every minute of every day. Practically every thought we have is somehow sinful.
If not sinning is the binchmark for being one with God then we have no hope. Fortunately God sent his Son to atone for our sin past present and future. Jesus is our salvation!

As for the Old Testament saints, not one of them were saved until Jesus satisfied the Old Testament and God started the new.

I have a hard time believing that anyone can go 24/7 without having ONE bad thought......even DANIEL who GOD said was only one of three men that could be delivered by his righteousness had to confess sins....

I disagree with your last statement....

OT saints looked forward to the cross in faith
NT saints look back to the cross in faith

Corinthians teaches that the word of God is spiritual in nature and beyond natural man's ability to understand...only one born of the spirit can understand the word and if what you say was correct (with all due respect) no one in the OT could understand the word....

ALSO....DAVID speaks in the PSALMS about the joy of God's SALVATION.....the OT saints possessed salvation even though the deal was sealed when Christ said "it is finished" IMV

ALSO the 11th chapter of HEBREWS.....many OT saints who had faith listed and the works that proved their faith/salvation
Psalm 51:12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

God bless you all, may you grow in His grace and Listen to His words, May the Holy Spirit
lead you into the ways of righteousness and love, because here is the way of blessing.

I sometimes wonder why people just repeat the same words without change, because
surely that is a denial of a dynamic relationship with the word and with God.

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - Every style or perspective has its own conclusions. It is easy to say we are so lost
why does God have any dealings with us.

This is the response of the world, and defeat.

God is talking to us because he believes we have value and are worthy of being spoken
to and we are not lost hopeless sinners without a future.

If fact He believes we have a real powerful future with Him, in fellowship with the Holy
Spirit, and to last into eternity.

Now once you grasp He says you can be Holy, washed clean, made whole, healed,
renewed, called acceptable, you are beginning to listen to God and not man.

dc - If you cannot see this in Christ and the cross, why are you a believer?

Why if Gods word does not transform us and set us free from the bondage to destroying
others and ourselves, causing harm and not blessing, is this not just some sick joke?

Do you love the world so much you want to spend all your waking life in this insane striving
for something we can never achieve except with Christ?

I know how insecurity, fear, cowardice, denial, hypocracy destroys people, I would much rather
walk in love and die, than live a compromised sad existance hoping financial and celebrity success
comes tomorrow, where I am clapped on a stage but actually know nobody, the final joke and
irony of covetousness and envy.

So I do not know what you are talking about, but I know my Lord and His ways.

This is nothing more that conjecture, opinion and a view void of the facts.......the verses I cited above in the OP and the preceding verses that followed concerning the faithful men of the bible such as Daniel renders your views MOOT concerning the topic at hand....

Your questions prove you have no clue about me, who I am or what I believe.....you just blindly ASSUME that I do not serve, walk in the truth, acknowledge the truth....you erroneously assume I live like the devil in sin and defeatism......and to be frank....the point of this THREAD goes so far over your head that I even wonder if you really know the Lord in true faith.

TO argue against the validity of the verses posted and the truth therein speaks volumes to your character and who you really are!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 11:13

YEAH I have read that...also the opening verses of Hebrews 11 and then the examples of their faith....FAITH is a spiritual GIFT...one cannot possess faith if they are not saved....

and DAVID addressed his SALVATION and the JOY of it in the PSALMS bro

The context of the verse is LOOKING for a CITY....not salvation!

 

[Embankment]

Hebrews 11: 39-40

 

[gb9]

dc - Every style or perspective has its own conclusions. It is easy to say we are so lost
why does God have any dealings with us.

This is the response of the world, and defeat.

God is talking to us because he believes we have value and are worthy of being spoken
to and we are not lost hopeless sinners without a future.

If fact He believes we have a real powerful future with Him, in fellowship with the Holy
Spirit, and to last into eternity.

Now once you grasp He says you can be Holy, washed clean, made whole, healed,
renewed, called acceptable, you are beginning to listen to God and not man.

dc - If you cannot see this in Christ and the cross, why are you a believer?

Why if Gods word does not transform us and set us free from the bondage to destroying
others and ourselves, causing harm and not blessing, is this not just some sick joke?

Do you love the world so much you want to spend all your waking life in this insane striving
for something we can never achieve except with Christ?

I know how insecurity, fear, cowardice, denial, hypocracy destroys people, I would much rather
walk in love and die, than live a compromised sad existance hoping financial and celebrity success
comes tomorrow, where I am clapped on a stage but actually know nobody, the final joke and
irony of covetousness and envy.

So I do not know what you are talking about, but I know my Lord and His ways.

there are no " styles " or" perspectives ". peter, all this emotional double-talk and rhetoric and lecturing is why you get so many harsh responses.

there is truth and non-truth that should guide our walk with the Lord. not feelings and emotions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a hard time believing that anyone can go 24/7 without having ONE bad thought......even DANIEL who GOD said was only one of three men that could be delivered by his righteousness had to confess sins....

I disagree with your last statement....

OT saints looked forward to the cross in faith
NT saints look back to the cross in faith

Corinthians teaches that the word of God is spiritual in nature and beyond natural man's ability to understand...only one born of the spirit can understand the word and if what you say was correct (with all due respect) no one in the OT could understand the word....

ALSO....DAVID speaks in the PSALMS about the joy of God's SALVATION.....the OT saints possessed salvation even though the deal was sealed when Christ said "it is finished" IMV

ALSO the 11th chapter of HEBREWS.....many OT saints who had faith listed and the works that proved their faith/salvation
Psalm 51:12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.

The way I see it, the more mature you get the more sinful you REALISE you really are (wretched man that I am) and the more you are FORCED to rely on grace and mercy and Gods empowerment to do Gods will in your life (which actually makes it easier, because you enter faith rest in God) and the less you rely on self. (trying to live up to some standard you can't obtain, or have to lower so you can lie to yourself that you can obtain)

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 11: 39-40

Same context....ALL is conclusive of ALL.....

ALL the saved look for the same thing.......REVELATION and NEW JERUSALEM and GOD dwelling with men......the OT saints were saved....they had FAITH...faith is a spiritual GIFT that ONE cannot possess without being saved!

 

[dcontroversal]

there are no " styles " or" perspectives ". peter, all this emotional double-talk and rhetoric and lecturing is why you get so many harsh responses.

there is truth and non-truth that should guide our walk with the Lord. not feelings and emotions.

AMEN to this..........and I agree

 

[dcontroversal]

The way I see it, the more mature you get the more sinful you REALISE you really are (wretched man that I am) and the more you are FORCED to rely on grace and mercy and Gods empowerment to do Gods will in your life (which actually makes it easier, because you enter faith rest in God) and the less you rely on self. (trying to live up to some standard you can't obtain, or have to lower so you can lie to yourself that you can obtain)

AMEN to this one as well....The more time I spend in the truth the more vile I see the flesh for sure.....Paul said he was the number 1 chief sinner among men in the present tense....

I always say...In light of Christ and his righteousness I have cornered the market on sin.......!